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Maarek posted:I think something that people tend to overlook is that Stalin was counting on the invasion of France being a bloody affair that weakened Germany. When they rolled over France without too many casualties that threw a wrench into the USSR's entire political strategy. Which is interesting because Stalin was part of the people taking over a weakened Russia after a bloody front in France failed to be able to sap German strength less than 30 years prior.
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Oct 4, 2014 17:54
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Adar posted:"Hmm, Germany rolled over France without too many casualties. This series of urgent warnings about the hundreds of thousands of troops rolling east means nothing" -Glorious Leader, May 1941 The point being that it wasn't that Stalin thought Hitler was a great guy who would never betray him, it's that he really didn't want to fight Germany and went to excessive lengths to make sure not to 'provoke' them. What he didn't (or didn't want to) realize was that Hitler had already made up his mind to invade the USSR.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:30
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computer parts posted:Go read Ghost of the Executed Engineer if you want an idea of how Stalin did industrialization (tl;dr- throw lots of manpower at it and execute anyone that says it's a dumb project). Seconded. It's a great book, and no more depressing than anything else dealing with Russian history. Maarek posted:The point being that it wasn't that Stalin thought Hitler was a great guy who would never betray him, it's that he really didn't want to fight Germany and went to excessive lengths to make sure not to 'provoke' them. What he didn't (or didn't want to) realize was that Hitler had already made up his mind to invade the USSR. I'd go as far as to say that he was convinced that war was inevitable, but badly underestimated the German timetable.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:32
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From what I recall, Stalin was planning on betraying Hitler, but didn't really expect that Hitler was going to betray him so soon.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:33
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Seconded. It's a great book, and no more depressing than anything else dealing with Russian history. To be fair, the German timetable was itself rapidly accelerated. Hitler's diplomatic offensive was never meant to produce a war, and in fact war would have been utterly catastrophic at several points. The german high command was planning for war to commence in 1945, when they would be fully rearmed. The audacity of the German advance probably held a lot of the seeds of their success, but also meant that when it turned into a long war, they were hosed. Of course, by 1945 everyone else would be that much more entrenched, so we probably saw the best case scenario for nazi germany IRL.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:36
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Berke Negri posted:From what I recall, Stalin was planning on betraying Hitler, but didn't really expect that Hitler was going to betray him so soon. More or less.  I mean seriously, Stalin had read Mein Kampf and kept an copy of it handy which he'd annotated in his own hand (what I wouldn't give for access to that). He understood Nazi racial thought and that their expansionist eyes were always pointed east, as well as that Poland was prelude, not main act. EDIT: Actually, you know what? Even for weekend-posting this is derailing and off-point, as much as I love talking about WWII and all. I'll stop, and we should probably try to get back on course with 2016 primary stuff. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 18:38
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Berke Negri posted:From what I recall, Stalin was planning on betraying Hitler, but didn't really expect that Hitler was going to betray him so soon. I don't think anyone was ready for how fast the Nazis took over western europe. In hindsight Barbarossa being an awful idea seems obvious, but after 1939 and 1940 there were quite a few people in the west who thought that Germany would win in Russia, too. Captain_Maclaine posted:Actually, you know what? Even for weekend-posting this is derailing and off-point, as much as I love talking about WWII and all. I'll stop, and we should probably try to get back on course with 2016 primary stuff. I totally forgot what thread I was in. Oops!
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Oct 4, 2014 18:42
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Berke Negri posted:From what I recall, Stalin was planning on betraying Hitler, but didn't really expect that Hitler was going to betray him so soon. In 1941, the Soviets were in the middle of a massive modernization program in all branches of their military. The SVT-38 and 40 semi-automatic rifles were to be the new standard issue gun to replace the Mosin-Nagant. New ship hulls were being constructed in Leningrad and Sevastopol to replace the obsolete pre-Dreadnaught ships in the Red Navy. New Yaks, MiGs and LaGGs were being built to replace the Red Air Force's I-15s and -16s. The aging tank fleet of BT-5s and -7s, T-28s and other assorted 20s and 30s designs were being replaced with the T-34, which itself was scheduled to be gradually replaced with the T-34M. The KV-1, the Soviet 45 ton monster immune to most of the world's anti tank guns at the time, was to be gradually replaced with the KV-3,a tank with even more armor and a 107mm cannon while the rest of the world was still unsuccessful at mounting 75mm guns on things. It wasn't that Stalin didn't want to believe that Hitler was invading, it was that Hitler was invading at the worst possible time. In 1941, the Soviets were in the middle of decommissioning their old stuff but hadn't got the new equipment to the troops yet. That's why it was a real shitshow in the early phases of the Eastern Front.
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Oct 4, 2014 19:00
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Maarek posted:I don't think anyone was ready for how fast the Nazis took over western europe. In hindsight Barbarossa being an awful idea seems obvious, but after 1939 and 1940 there were quite a few people in the west who thought that Germany would win in Russia, too. Arguably they still could've won if Hitler hadn't been a colossal dumbass who diverted troops away from Moscow just before the winter to go grab some oil fields.
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Oct 4, 2014 20:27
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Thank you. For all the circlejerking about how much R primary voters would hate him, the quips on the last few pages have been really gross. Imagine how stupid and lovely all of the non-gay lazy quips that are thrown out at other Republican candidates come off to normal people!
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Oct 4, 2014 21:12
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Dr.Zeppelin posted:"I'm not making fun of him because he's gay, I'm making fun of him because he's effeminate" is a really terrible argument to make and if any Republicans make fun of Graham's supposed gayness, it isn't remotely nearly as prevalent as how often liberals do it. It's more along the lines of reminding everyone how obviously femme/closeted the guy is to highlight his consistency in supporting horrific discrimination. It's a ripe target even when he's not in the news for being lovely about LGBT issues with his party.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:37
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Goons not being able to laugh at themselves. News at 11.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:43
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DeusExMachinima posted:Arguably they still could've won if Hitler hadn't been a colossal dumbass who diverted troops away from Moscow just before the winter to go grab some oil fields. What have you done...
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Oct 4, 2014 23:26
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Na man, he's right. It's like in a computer game, when you grab the enemies capital you win. Which is why Russia is a client state of France after Napoleon's famous capture of Moscow and the subsequent glorious parade back home.
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Oct 4, 2014 23:33
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Na man, he's right. It's like in a computer game, when you grab the enemies capital you win. Which is why Russia is a client state of France after Napoleon's famous capture of Moscow and the subsequent glorious parade back home. The capital was St. Petersburg; Soviets moved it to Moscow
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Oct 4, 2014 23:59
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Malleum posted:It wasn't that Stalin didn't want to believe that Hitler was invading, it was that Hitler was invading at the worst possible time. In 1941, the Soviets were in the middle of decommissioning their old stuff but hadn't got the new equipment to the troops yet. That's why it was a real shitshow in the early phases of the Eastern Front. Don't forget as well, the Soviets started the war with more planes and tanks than the rest of the world combined and promptly lost them in the first year. Nearly 21,000 tanks were destroyed in 1941 alone.
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Oct 5, 2014 01:37
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I don't know how you got on #WWIIChat, but I found this today: 2016 THE NUMBER ANOTHER SUMMER GET DOWN SOUND OF THE FUNKY BASSIST
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Oct 5, 2014 01:41
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You know that book's from like 2008 right?
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Oct 5, 2014 01:52
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comes along bort posted:You know that book's from like 2008 right? Still never fails to get me. Was in a used book bin.
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Oct 5, 2014 02:20
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Serious question: Assume Rauner/whoever candidacy faces against Hillary/Emanuel. What are your election predictions?
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Oct 5, 2014 02:23
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Did Spike Lee get pissed at him over that?
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Oct 5, 2014 02:23
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My Imaginary GF posted:Serious question: Assume Rauner/whoever candidacy faces against Hillary/Emanuel. What are your election predictions? Getting a little ahead of yourself there buddy, I don't think she's going to pluck you from Chicago.
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Oct 5, 2014 02:25
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What would adding Emanuel to your ticket provide? The stink of unpopularity?
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Oct 5, 2014 03:13
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Shageletic posted:What would adding Emanuel to your ticket provide? The stink of unpopularity? Arguably one of the worst modern choices, right after Lieberman and Palin.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:18
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Shageletic posted:What would adding Emanuel to your ticket provide? The stink of unpopularity? 270 to win, and if Illinois is a toss-up or Lean R, and someone in Chicago offers to make it a 100% D for the veep slot, what do you do?
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Oct 5, 2014 03:22
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Emanuel makes IL harder for Hillary, not easier, what the hell are you talking about?
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Oct 5, 2014 03:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:270 to win, and if Illinois is a toss-up or Lean R, and someone in Chicago offers to make it a 100% D for the veep slot, what do you do? Take one of a dozen other choices who won't drag your ticket down so far as to negate the boost they give you for IL? I mean, if he could singlehandedly deliver Texas, that'd be one thing. But really?
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Oct 5, 2014 03:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:270 to win, and if Illinois is a toss-up or Lean R, and someone in Chicago offers to make it a 100% D for the veep slot, what do you do? Speaking of things that never happen.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:270 to win, and if Illinois is a toss-up or Lean R, and someone in Chicago offers to make it a 100% D for the veep slot, what do you do? Tap a short-tempered human caricature with a closet full of scandals for VP? As a bonus he could deny the divinity of Christ, that'll pick up some swing votes.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:37
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Emmanuel probably costs at least a point, maybe two, nationwide. To come up with a worse candidate you'd need to actively look for one.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:270 to win, and if Illinois is a toss-up or Lean R, and someone in Chicago offers to make it a 100% D for the veep slot, what do you do? Pack it in for four years because if Dems aren't winning Illinois they're not getting more than 100 electoral votes.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:39
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:To come up with a worse candidate you'd need to actively look for one. No worries, we've got just the man on that job
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Oct 5, 2014 03:40
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MIGF, no matter how much you want to be the veep, I don't think Hillary is going to pick you. Maybe try in 8 years.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:41
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GreyPowerVan posted:MIGF, no matter how much you want to be the veep, I don't think Hillary is going to pick you. Maybe try in 8 years. I don't know or care which Castro brother is Hillary's VP.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:47
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CannonFodder posted:Yeah, sitting VP Castro needs a whip of a VP candidate as he goes for the Presidency. I really don't get what having Castro on your ticket adds. Hispanics aren't a solid ethnic bloc.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:49
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My Imaginary GF posted:I really don't get what having Castro on your ticket adds. Hispanics aren't a solid ethnic bloc. You also think Rahm Emanuel is anything other than a negative in the minds of a majority of people in Chicago. I am completely baffled at you A. considering IL anything but solid dem in 2016 and B. thinking Rahm Emanuel is the solution to the non-existant problem.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:53
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Forums' own beltway insider thinks Illinois is in play.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:55
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joeburz posted:You also think Rahm Emanuel is anything other than a negative in the minds of a majority of people in Chicago. I am completely baffled at you A. considering IL anything but solid dem in 2016 and B. thinking Rahm Emanuel is the solution to the non-existant problem. Trust me, I am drat well aware. Name an alternative that doesn't result in Council Wars 2: Now With Riots. A transfer of power from promotion, we can deal with. A transfer of power because of the people? Do you want everyone's pension to disappear? Vienna Circlejerk posted:Forums' own beltway insider thinks Illinois is in play. Forums own sees the adbuy size and groundgame hired. You don't put that much in from someone with a purely capitalist mindset and not anticipate some great RoI.
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Oct 5, 2014 05:00
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:Forums' own beltway insider thinks Illinois is in play. Obama's upcoming executive order to use Chicago as a dumping ground for infected Ebola patients won't be popular there, but it does allow the Dems to sweep the midterm elections in the South.
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Oct 5, 2014 05:00
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My Imaginary GF posted:Forums own sees the adbuy size and groundgame hired. You don't put that much in from someone with a purely capitalist mindset and not anticipate some great RoI. Yes, Republican candidates never spend a ton of money without getting a return.
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Oct 5, 2014 05:06
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