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Also worth mentioning that in the US Civil War the secessionists were cartoon villains who wanted to extend a slave empire across the Americas and revolted just because they could "only" be limited to having slavery where they already had it. I mean, if that is the comparison you want to make with separatists, go ahead, but from a PR angle I wouldn't advise it. *glances at instagram of novorossiya separatists with rebel flag*
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Oct 5, 2014 02:59
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It's not really a civil war if a foreign power instigated it, all combatants on one side are supplied by that foreign power, and that foreign power's regular military forces are doing much or even most of the fighting/dying.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:04
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Berke Negri posted:Also worth mentioning that in the US Civil War the secessionists were cartoon villains who wanted to extend a slave empire across the Americas and revolted just because they could "only" be limited to having slavery where they already had it. I mean, if that is the comparison you want to make with separatists, go ahead, but from a PR angle I wouldn't advise it. *glances at instagram of novorossiya separatists with rebel flag* I can't even tell what your point here is? The American Civil War was hardly based on slavery alone so the cartoon villainy is more a simplification for middle school students.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:05
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Cuntpunch posted:I can't even tell what your point here is? The American Civil War was hardly based on slavery alone so the cartoon villainy is more a simplification for middle school students. Oh for gently caress's sake not this poo poo too, on top of the usual bullshit ITT Yes, The Civil War Was About Slavery. It's written into the CSA constitution for gently caress's sake
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Oct 5, 2014 03:08
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Cuntpunch posted:I can't even tell what your point here is? The American Civil War was hardly based on slavery alone so the cartoon villainy is more a simplification for middle school students. Actually, the "for middle school students" thing is more the idea that it wasn't all about slavery. Any social or economic reason for secession ultimately had its roots in slavery. Wanting lower tariffs? Slavery had made it so the southern economy was pre-industrial, so they wanted to buy cheap European manufactured goods. State's rights? The CSA constitution gave no additional powers to the states, and actually took some away. What they mean when they say state's rights is that with the impending death of the Southern majority in the Senate, they would be unable to extend slavery West, and prevent it from being chipped away it in the East. TheBalor fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 03:10
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Cuntpunch posted:I can't even tell what your point here is? The American Civil War was hardly based on slavery alone so the cartoon villainy is more a simplification for middle school students. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't American and telling you yes, the Civil War was all about slavery.
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Oct 5, 2014 03:20
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I think his point more generally was comparing the legitimacy of the "Pro-Russian Separatist" cause to the legitimacy of the Confederacy is not the wisest move because outside of smouldering regional sympathies they're considered pretty awful. It's usually better to think of comparisons to groups people are more widely sympathetic to. Regardless, the Ukrainian side gets to keep the name Ukrainian and be referred to as Ukraine because they're the side fighting for a continuing, unified Ukraine. The separatists' ideology is incredibly haphazard, but they generally don't present themselves as Ukrainian and are predominantly - perhaps exclusively - supported by people who identify as ethnic Russians or by straight-up Russians crossing over from Russia. Their goal appears to be at minimum the founding of a Novorossiya which in case we've forgotten literally means New Russia out of what is currently Ukrainian territory. To try and present this war as a purely domestic matter fought between two legitimate factions of Ukrainians is ridiculous at best, propaganda at worst, and not even how the separatists are representing themselves. I suppose we might make a case that there are Eastern Ukrainians who legitimately wanted federalization or decentralization of powers, but my guess is they're not the ones who seized towns and cities over it, and it's unclear how inviting the Russian army in would get them closer to that goal. So until something drastic changes on the ground, the government of Kyiv represents the Ukrainian side in the fight for Ukraine, and its forces are the Ukrainian army. Dolash fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 03:22
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Official results of 12th Saeima elections. 1. “Saskaņa” sociāldemkrātiskā partija 23.61% 2. Partija “VIENOTĪBA” 21.19% 3. Zaļo un Zemnieku savienība 20.25% 4. Nacionālā apvienība “Visu Latvijai!” - ”Tēvzemei un Brīvībai/LNNK” 16.21% 5. No sirds Latvijai 6.99% 6. Latvijas Reģionu Apvienība 6.18% 7. “Latvijas Krievu savienība” 1.65% 8. Partija “Vienoti Latvijai” 1.18% 9. “Latvijas attīstībai” 0.88% 10. Jaunā konservatīvā partija 0.69% 11. Partija “Brīvība. Brīvs no bailēm, naida un dusmām” 0.19% 12. “POLITISKĀ PARTIJA IZAUGSME” 0.17% 13. “SUVERENITĀTE” 0.11%
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Oct 5, 2014 04:22
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My point is more that 'cartoony villains' is a stupid way to look at history and/or the world in general and only serves to get through classes quicker because the realities are more complicated. Trying to paint the world as a simple good-vs-evil narrative is part of what gets us into these messes in the first place.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:23
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A vast enterprise built on the ownership and distribution of human beings is pretty evil, sorry if that isn't hardboiled cynical enough for you. Anyways this is starting to verge towards the US history thread. My point was the Confederacy were pretty bad dudes unless you love racism and unless you want to paint separatists as bad guys you shouldn't compare them to the US Civil War and I'll drop this at this point.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:50
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kalstrams posted:Official results of 12th Saeima elections. What's the cut off? And what are the rules for formation of coalitions?
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Oct 5, 2014 05:00
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Yeah I don't really pay attention to Latvian elections much, can you break down these parties and their politics a bit more?
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Oct 5, 2014 05:04
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kalstrams posted:It's not ethical for me to ask, neither do I insist for you to answer as the matter is private to an utmost extent in my opinion, but I am curious on party you choose to give your vote for, or would vote for in case you abstained from vote. Eh, I have been in a country that does not have an embassy for the past month and didn't have a steady address until the 12.09 deadline for postal voting, so I couldn't vote in these elections, which is regrettable as gently caress. That said, I would probably (and very reluctantly) have voted for Vienotība or Saskaņas Centrs (leaning more to the former). This was a difficult election for making a choice though. I do actually think Vienotība did an acceptable job on handling the post-crisis recovery and their members have largely been able to avoid having corruption allegations stick, which cannot be said for Saskaņas Centrs. On the other hand, Saskaņa is is the only party of any influence to position itself left of the center. Which is a smart move in a country full with closeted social democrats, even if the execution of said position may be lacking. In either case, whichever choice I'd made, I'd probably regret it. We should really have a pro-European social democrat option that's center left of both economic and social issues. Cuntpunch posted:Yeah I don't really pay attention to Latvian elections much, can you break down these parties and their politics a bit more? kalstrams posted:Official results of 12th Saeima elections.
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Oct 5, 2014 07:54
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Forgall posted:Russian position is that Ukrainians are not real people, so Mightypeon's language must reflect that. It's lie. From Russians point of view Ukranians and Belorussians are fraternal nation. Because historically our nations have the same origins.
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Oct 5, 2014 08:03
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TeodorMorozov posted:It's lie. From Russians point of view Ukranians and Belorussians are fraternal nation. Because historically our nations have the same origins. Nah, what you are saying is the propagandistic lie. You don't wantonly attack, invade and kill whom you perceive as your brothers.
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Oct 5, 2014 08:06
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Nah, what you are saying is the propagandistic lie. You don't wantonly attack, invade and kill whom you perceive as your brothers. Considering the domestic abuse levels in Russia with the levels of alcohol abuse, well... I am not happy to see Russians die but the alternative is my relatives in Donetsk are at risk.
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Oct 5, 2014 08:29
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Nah, what you are saying is the propagandistic lie. You don't wantonly attack, invade and kill whom you perceive as your brothers. 
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Oct 5, 2014 09:28
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Mightypeon posted:Russian Settlement of "Novorussija Region" goes back way beyond that. And that Region wasnt a part of "Ukraine" until the early Bolsheviks made it a part of it. Well gently caress the Russian sentiment.
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Oct 5, 2014 11:01
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Yes, I agree. This is all a game to Putin, since he has no regard for human lives or suffering. Killing both Ukrainians and Russians is easy for him.
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Oct 5, 2014 11:29
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OddObserver posted:What's the cut off? And what are the rules for formation of coalitions? I agree with you here. I would give my vote for Saskaņas centrs, but I had no idea about mail voting deadline. I could have gone in person, but that would be at least an 8 hour round trip to which I was not prepared. Besides that, it does not seem that I will be in Latvia any time before 13th Saeima elections.
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Oct 5, 2014 11:46
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Ah, that explains the picture. Actually, in mythology, a mandrake is supposed to be a plant which looks like a human and if disturbed, emits a horrible cry. Some sources claim the cry of a mandrake kills those who hear it. For the picture of an artist, I would assume mythical reasoning trumps plain old "it's a poisonous plant".
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Oct 5, 2014 12:22
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So Estonia had a protest today, against the legalization of gay marriage in this country. The arguments mostly veer towards those such as: "IF THIS LAW GOES THRUOGH I COULD MARRY A PIG OR A GOAT OR A CORPSE OR A CHILD BECAUSE THATS EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF A DISEASE AS FAGGOTRY", pictures depicting our president wearing a rainbow-colored bow tie and wearing that jewish kippah hat and so on and so forth. Pretty sure somebody has been reading too much Pravda. I hope this law goes through so those people will be absolutely mad. If it doesn't, then we'll have to wait a decade or so. There were mostly older people protesting, probably voting for centre party already anyway so it's not like much will change because of that.
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Oct 5, 2014 14:32
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Concerning "Kievans" if the earlier attempt of Lviv/Lvov/Lemberg to become independent would have triggered civil war then (with Yanukovych maintaining control of the army), I would refer to the hypothetical Yanukovych Regime in Kiev trying to crush Lviv/Lvov/Lemberg as "Kievans" and to the Galicians as seperatists or Galicians. Its "Kievans" because that is the capital. Also, the whole name changing things just add confusion. It is iirc still Kiev in international usage, and was "Kiev" for a pretty drat long time. I dont think anyone here referred to Moscow as Moskva yet, which would be the actual phonetic transliteration. Seriously, the Galician faction managed to become, with western Support "Ukrainian", the biggest failure of the non South Eastern side is that they did not contest what "Ukrainian" means, leaving the Definition of that term to the west. Instead went like "gently caress that poo poo, the last 23 years sucked, we make something else now". Concerning seperatist motivations, current policy of Kiev is that they have to accept a second round of deindustrialisation, which would propably irreversibly destroy their economic base, accept Bandera as a hero and Lenin as a villain, accept marginalisation in politics because even if they win elections some dudes can beat up their politicians and cut their ties with in many cases family they have in Russia. In return they get EU Austerity, and get their stuff run by some EU Troika. This is in a setting when the new authorities have previosly legitimized the use of violence and seperatism by their own actions. They would have to be reincarnations of Ghandi to not fight, heck some of them, as evidenced by the Ruban interview, where on Maidan and not in a Berkut uniform. Concerning the "mutual Independence from both Ukraine and Russia" thing, yeah, that is actually a thing. Putin is a good ally, but why have him as a Boss if you can avoid it? They very propably wont gain that, because the correlation of forces simply doesnt support that, but a "Novorussijan state policiy of shifting between the west of Russia while searching for the best possible deal" is exactly what considerable parts of the "ukrainian national consensus" used to be for the last 2 decades.
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Oct 5, 2014 15:19
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jonnypeh posted:So Estonia had a protest today, against the legalization of gay marriage in this country. The arguments mostly veer towards those such as: "IF THIS LAW GOES THRUOGH I COULD MARRY A PIG OR A GOAT OR A CORPSE OR A CHILD BECAUSE THATS EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF A DISEASE AS FAGGOTRY", pictures depicting our president wearing a rainbow-colored bow tie and wearing that jewish kippah hat and so on and so forth. Pretty sure somebody has been reading too much Pravda. I find these hyperbolic reactions quite idiotic, but being an Estonian myself, I have to say that the anti-gay sentiment is certainly not limited to elderly people and Pravda readers. Estonians can sometimes be quite racist and homophobic. It rarely goes to direct confrontation, insults or physical violence, but there certainly is some behind-the-back snickering, hints and general psychological pressure on those who differ from the majority.
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Oct 5, 2014 15:23
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Mightypeon posted:Concerning the "mutual Independence from both Ukraine and Russia" thing, yeah, that is actually a thing. Putin is a good ally, but why have him as a Boss if you can avoid it? They very propably wont gain that, because the correlation of forces simply doesnt support that, but a "Novorussijan state policiy of shifting between the west of Russia while searching for the best possible deal" is exactly what considerable parts of the "ukrainian national consensus" used to be for the last 2 decades. How cute, you still think that there is someone left in the separatist camp in a position to demand anything from Russia. Kremlin hates decentralisation to the point that any secession talk is a criminal offense and to get any kind of self-governance you need to sit on oil like Tatarstan or be Kadyrov. Everyone in the DNR leadership is a Russian citizen. Speaking of Kadyrov - a suicide bomber just blew himself up in Grozny on Kadyrov's birthday, which strikes hard against the Chechen president assurance of stability in his region. Maybe it is ISIS fulfilling their promise? I know for sure that Kadyrov is going to blame USA for this.
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Oct 5, 2014 15:30
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Mightypeon posted:It is iirc still Kiev in international usage, and was "Kiev" for a pretty drat long time. Kyiv is what Ukrainians insist to be the proper name, circa 1995, and same goes for U.S. government, circa 2006. Thus that I think it is respectful to use Kyiv instead of Kiev.
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Oct 5, 2014 15:38
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http://www.npr.org/2014/10/04/353679002/putin-among-the-surprises-on-nobel-peace-prize-list
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Oct 5, 2014 16:50
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Batham posted:http://www.npr.org/2014/10/04/353679002/putin-among-the-surprises-on-nobel-peace-prize-list Necessary reminder http://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=2609
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Oct 5, 2014 16:55
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fatherboxx posted:Necessary reminder And this.
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Oct 5, 2014 16:59
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All this talk about Russian sentiment/heritage as a reason to stick with it is bullshit. Any Ukrainian that I know just wants a better life for themselves and their families, whether with the West, Russia, what have you. They just don't trust Russia, and for a really really good reason. Russian authorities lie and kill its own people, other people, etc. it sent its military in to Ukraine without telling them. It treats its own people as entirely expendable. Who gives a gently caress what your heritage is if one of the parties are trying to gently caress you? You stick with the one that is loving you less, which is currently the West.
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Oct 5, 2014 17:29
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kalstrams posted:http://www.businessinsider.com/kiev-or-kyiv-2014-1 On Google, there are about 2.74 million hits for Kyiv, and 133 or so million for Kiev. That is a factor of 50. I would also refer you to the english speaking Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev Or the Kiev goverments own Homepage which is: kievcity.gov.ua Note that this has nothing to do with me being German, for us it is "Kiew" with a w.
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Oct 5, 2014 17:32
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Mightypeon posted:On Google, there are about 2.74 million hits for Kyiv, and 133 or so million for Kiev. That is a factor of 50. Accessibility is a self-perpetuating cycle. You'll note that the Wikipedia article itself points out that Kyiv is the the preferred spelling of a variety of sources, including the Ukrainian government itself, as well as the UN and the the US government, but plenty of other sources still use Kiev (such as the BBC, media within Ukraine itself, and most English-speaking news organizations). Most non-locals are likely to hear it from one of the news sources who still use Kiev because that's most familiar to their audience, which perpetuates it. Ukrainian to English, just in terms of preserving the sound, romanization of Київ would more properly be Kyiv. К = hard consonant K и = vowel sound, like in English "pick" or "fin" ї = vowel sound, sounds like how most people say "ye" as in "ye olde". в = consonant, similar to the english V sound Romanized as Kyiv, most English-speakers will pronounce it "Kih-yeev" or "Keye-eev", which is a lot closer than what people get from Kiev - "Kee-ev".
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Oct 5, 2014 18:20
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Yes, I agree. This is all a game to Putin, since he has no regard for human lives or suffering. Killing both Ukrainians and Russians is easy for him. 
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Oct 5, 2014 18:21
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Olesh posted:Accessibility is a self-perpetuating cycle. You'll note that the Wikipedia article itself points out that Kyiv is the the preferred spelling of a variety of sources, including the Ukrainian government itself, as well as the UN and the the US government, but plenty of other sources still use Kiev (such as the BBC, media within Ukraine itself, and most English-speaking news organizations). Most non-locals are likely to hear it from one of the news sources who still use Kiev because that's most familiar to their audience, which perpetuates it. Kiev would be the romanization of the Russian variant of the name, of course. So yes, by failing to update their guidelines they are perpetuating Russian imperialism.
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Oct 5, 2014 18:26
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fatherboxx posted:How cute, you still think that there is someone left in the separatist camp in a position to demand anything from Russia. Kremlin hates decentralisation to the point that any secession talk is a criminal offense and to get any kind of self-governance you need to sit on oil like Tatarstan or be Kadyrov. Everyone in the DNR leadership is a Russian citizen. You should perhaps educate yourself a bit more about the current state of self goverment in Russia. The most autonomous things in Russia, the republics, are pretty autonomous and their leadership is again elective (was not elective for some time, is elective again, but may Change back in the future). Concerning 100% Russians: Lets go to wiki and look up how many Ukrainians they have under "pro Russian lead figures": Ukrainian: Zakharachenko Gubarev btw. was also Born in Ukraine. As is his wife (foreign Minister). Bezler is from Simferopol (ethnicially half German half Ukrainian, considers himself Russian) Pushilin is from Makiivka Khodokovsky is former Ukrainian SBU. Kinchaev is from Luhansk Kononov is from Hirske, also in Ukraine Plotnynski is again from Luhansk Ponomaryev was a Slaviansk local Zarev is from Dnepropetrovsk Russian guys: Girkin (clear helicopter) Antyufeyev/Shetsev (clear helicopter) Bolotov (moved to Ukraine when he was 4, and Rostov is practically speaking next door, so different from the helicopter brigade) Borodai (clear helicopter) The page also has a Chumachenko, which is an Ukrainian name, but no biographical data is given. A couple of people, notably those of whom only a nome de guerre is known, (f.e. "Motorola", who is kind of important, comes to mind here) cannot be easily ascertained concerning their nationality.
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Oct 5, 2014 18:36
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Mightypeon posted:You should perhaps educate yourself a bit more about the current state of self goverment in Russia.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:37
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Common usage is going to remain common usage, and, I don't think it needs to be something that needs to be forced for political reasons. Common usage in English is calling it Kiev, you can also call it Kyiv if you want but English speakers use inaccurate or outdated geographical names all the time (as does every other language). I think it is pretty much only a issue it seems because it involves Russia. Also, people still call Myanmar, Burma all the time and that is an entire country and the names are completely different. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 20:51
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Forgall posted:Maybe somebody who actually lives here knows more than you do you dumb gently caress. Considerable areas of Russia are pretty autonomous, and not even remotely all of them sit on unusual amounts of natural resources. Things were decentralized again under Medvedev, which may not be quite true for someone living in one of the less "asymetrically autonomous" parts. Russia isnt that exceptional when it comes to very heterogenous autonomy, the federal centre seeks to bring the other areas in line if possible, but cannot do so everywhere at once. Areas that it wants to bring in line dont like the federal goverment very much, while areas it currently does not care about enjoy autonomy and are quite fine with the current circumstances. Add the fact that different perhaps-autonomous regions have different interests, and those interests may or may not coincide from those of the federal goverment. These kind of things happened over and over in history, from the HRE to imperial China to even todays UK. Habsburgs were of course a lot more decentralized. Then there is the difference between de jure and de facto autonomy, some regions which dont have much autonomy de jure may have considerable amounts of it de facto due to successfull power plays by the people in charge, while some de jure autonomous parts are strongly beholden to the central goverment due to a combination demographic, economic, political and personal factors. Make no mistake, Putin did an all over the place centralisation when he came to power, and it frankly worked. It should also be noted that this strengthening of the verticale of power achieved considerable results, it was also aimed not only at regional power centres, but at emerging oligarch power brokers/players on the federal Level (Khodrkovsky, arguable Guzman), who in turn were pretty threatening to regional authorities. Some of the local authorities also prefered a kind of working but somewhat intrusive federal goverment to a completely dysfunctional but unintrusive one, which regional authorities prefered what in turn depended on wide variety of factors. He/Medvedev later decentralized a bit. P.S. Given the lack of creativity when it comes to insulting me, I seriously doubt you are Russian.
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Oct 5, 2014 21:59
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Ardennes posted:Common usage is going to remain common usage, and, I don't think it needs to be something that needs to be forced for political reasons. Common usage in English is calling it Kiev, you can also call it Kyiv if you want but English speakers use inaccurate or outdated geographical names all the time (as does every other language). I think it is pretty much only a issue it seems because it involves Russia. Unless someone looses a world war, those name changes very rarely happen on an international scale. Last major big namechanges were in Korea (back from superimposed Japanese names), Eastern Europe (away with all German names), France (the same). What is a bit unique in the Situation is that those are namechanges from mutually intelligible languages, so its not a "Königsberg -> Kaliningrad" or "Konstantinopolis -> Istanbul" difference. I guess one could compare it with the morphing of Peking to Beijing, but I frankly dont know if that was international.
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Oct 5, 2014 22:10
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I hate the idea that governments can mandate city name changes among the world's population. I mean yeah change the official name of a government, sure, but don't gently caress with geography. Its pretty common actually and almost always done by nations that try to come off as being proud of their culture but really have no self-confidence. See: India.
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Oct 5, 2014 22:17
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