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Mightypeon posted:Russia isnt that exceptional when it comes to very heterogenous autonomy, the federal centre seeks to bring the other areas in line if possible, but cannot do so everywhere at once. Areas that it wants to bring in line dont like the federal goverment very much, while areas it currently does not care about enjoy autonomy and are quite fine with the current circumstances. Congratulations, you cracked it wide open - Moscow does not want important regions to have any kind of autonomy and does not give a poo poo about who collects the taxes in Jewish Autonomous Region. Republics are exactly the kind of regions that have autonomy rights de jure but rarely have any chance to use them. Moscow operates strictly through the federal programs and federal financing and with them comes very one-sided power structure. The "decentralisation" that Medvedev attempted was purely cosmetical, especially in the light of police reform and the Investigative commitee reform that have secured the vertical in law enforcement. And you seriously bring up the elective leadership? The elections don't matter since the appointed successsor model that worked wonders at the highest level is largely used in the regions. You kick the last corrupted rear end in a top hat out, put in the guy from Moscow, blast a PR campaign for half a year, put complete clowns in electoral competition and you get 85% approval for your guy (with less than 40-50% turnout). With the current course to further centralization any pro-Russian separatist should realize that he is fighting to suck the tit of Moscow. Crimea is already feeling the dependency on federal money, the war-torn Donbass would require a lot more support, which would only go together with an iron leash.
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Oct 5, 2014 22:41
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I hate the separatists as anyone, but the Kiev/Kyiv thing is a non-issue. Maybe in 20 years people will say Kyiv, but Kiev is by far the most popular/recognizable option to laymen (despite Ukraine's preference) so it's not really an insult, like 'the Ukraine\на Украине' can be. Those of us who know a bit about Russian/Ukrainian know the difference of course, but no one gets up in arms about Kharkov vs. Kharkiv.
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Oct 5, 2014 22:59
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Cliff Racer posted:I hate the idea that governments can mandate city name changes among the world's population. I mean yeah change the official name of a government, sure, but don't gently caress with geography. Its pretty common actually and almost always done by nations that try to come off as being proud of their culture but really have no self-confidence. See: India. Do you also get mad that it's Beijing now instead of Peking? Cause that's the level of stuff India typically does, changes in spelling that reflect the actual name better.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:03
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vegaji posted:I hate the separatists as anyone, but the Kiev/Kyiv thing is a non-issue. Maybe in 20 years people will say Kyiv, but Kiev is by far the most popular/recognizable option to laymen (despite Ukraine's preference) so it's not really an insult, like 'the Ukraine\на Украине' can be. Those of us who know a bit about Russian/Ukrainian know the difference of course, but no one gets up in arms about Kharkov vs. Kharkiv. Mightypeon is trying to confuse the issue, which is that he's referring to the Ukrainian government as "Kieveans" (or Kyivans, idc) instead of as Ukrainian in an effort to diminish their apparent legitimacy.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:04
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Nintendo Kid posted:Do you also get mad that it's Beijing now instead of Peking? Cause that's the level of stuff India typically does, changes in spelling that reflect the actual name better. Historically speaking I would have preferred it remain Peking. If they want the official Chinese spelling to be whatever it is, thats fine, but they should be fine with the name being different in different languages. Englishmen don't get pissed off about London being "Londres" in French, Italians don't get annoyed at "Torino" being Turin. Then there's the fact that in a lot of these places the "new name" was either not the original settlement's name (because the city did not exist prior to colonization) or is just one of the many local names that the city had had previously, typically the one used by the ethnic group running the country as opposed to the one that is dominant in the actual city. Thats what happened in Canton, which had a native, but actually alien, name foisted upon it.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:12
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You're seeing this in terms of the dreaded political correctness rather than simple convenience. Saying the same word the locals say is objectively simpler.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:20
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Cliff Racer posted:Historically speaking I would have preferred it remain Peking. If they want the official Chinese spelling to be whatever it is, thats fine, but they should be fine with the name being different in different languages. Englishmen don't get pissed off about London being "Londres" in French, Italians don't get annoyed at "Torino" being Turin. Then there's the fact that in a lot of these places the "new name" was either not the original settlement's name (because the city did not exist prior to colonization) or is just one of the many local names that the city had had previously, typically the one used by the ethnic group running the country as opposed to the one that is dominant in the actual city. Thats what happened in Canton, which had a native, but actually alien, name foisted upon it. The thing is that the spelling simply didn't reflect how someone would say the name. Peking was based on an archaic means of romanization that doesn't really work well, Beijing is the same name in a better conversion - despite how different they look they're meant to be pronounced almost the same way. Same sort of deal for Kolkata and Mumbai in India and many others. Peking for instance came about from how people speaking Shakespeare's English tried to render the speaking of the name in similarly archaic Chinese at the time. Edit: And consider this: the Japanese changed the name of Edo to Tokyo in the 1860s and for a time "Tokei" was an accepted alternate way to spell the new name in English for a few decades. Yet you don't see people today whining about how mean it was of the Japanese to change that name. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 23:20
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vegaji posted:it's not really an insult, like 'the Ukraine\на Украине' can be.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:20
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Best Friends posted:You're seeing this in terms of the dreaded political correctness rather than simple convenience. Saying the same word the locals say is objectively simpler. A lot of the time the locals were using the English/Western name OR were using a name that did not end up being adopted. I really feel that its an empowerment issue in a lot of cases and, of course, if your state goes around trying to "empower" itself what it is really saying is that it has no confidence in itself.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:25
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Anyway, Beijing and Mumbai have been adopted over time by English speakers, it maybe the case for Kyiv but it just hasn't happened yet. You can argue that news services should use one form over the other, but if they are doing it one way, and it is common usage at the same time, there isn't much room to start criticizing someone over it. If Ukrainians want to make it a big issue, I guess they should start a letter writing campaign. (Most Americans probably don't know Mumbai and Bombay are the same place.)
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Oct 5, 2014 23:53
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fatherboxx posted:Congratulations, you cracked it wide open - Moscow does not want important regions to have any kind of autonomy and does not give a poo poo about who collects the taxes in Jewish Autonomous Region. Well, how would you reconcile Novosibirsk mayoral elections, iirc the guy in Charge (who defeated the UR guy, and is iirc a KPR backed by everyone who is not UR) has some significant power, with this? Novosibirsk is not exactly the Jewish autonomous oblast. Or, on a different vein, exactly how would the huge Yakutian republic develop without the federal goverment? Not that the feds did a very good Job of it, but letting the Chinese develop that is unlikely to work very well for Yakutia. There is of course the thing that basically nearly none of the republics would be viable seperate entities given their current borders (well, global warming may change that for some), but that is not Putins fault since those borders were drawn way earlier. Novorussija, or just even DPR + LPR with Mariupol (Harbors are important), would be somewhat valid, and iirc have a bigger Population then any current Russian republic that isnt Tatarstan. Full Novorussija is like what, 20 Million people with credible industrial potentials sitting on pretty good real estate? Any guy Putin would send to be in Charge would very quickly decide that being the first dude in whatever "Novorussijas capital" would be beats being second in Moscow/Putins bitch. Same dynamic is even more true if Russia goes for indigenous leadership, which seems to be happening. Right now they (seperatists) kind of have to suck it up (not that Putin is making that very hard) because Kiev wants to kill them all (not unsurprisingly, given that western support is not neverending, Kiev side is running on an unclear deadline). The moment they dont need Russia to simply keep existing is the moment they will get a lot more Independent minded.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:56
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Discendo Vox posted:Mightypeon is trying to confuse the issue, which is that he's referring to the Ukrainian government as "Kieveans" (or Kyivans, idc) instead of as Ukrainian in an effort to diminish their apparent legitimacy. Eh. Talking about the Sudanese conflict you'd hear about "Khartoum is doing X" all the time. It's not uncommon in a full-scale civil conflictlike this.
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Oct 6, 2014 00:25
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Err, didn't they ban direct elections of mayors in anything > villages or so pretty much soon after?
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Oct 6, 2014 00:27
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Discendo Vox posted:Mightypeon is trying to confuse the issue, which is that he's referring to the Ukrainian government as "Kieveans" (or Kyivans, idc) instead of as Ukrainian in an effort to diminish their apparent legitimacy.
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Oct 6, 2014 01:02
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Cliff Racer posted:I really feel that its an empowerment issue in a lot of cases and, of course, if your state goes around trying to "empower" itself what it is really saying is that it has no confidence in itself. This is really drat stupid, how are you even making such a connection that standardizing a name to drop imperial connotations or to closer reflect what its actually called by the locals means that they must lack self confidence? Even if it were because they just had a big chip on their shoulder who cares? names have been changed for those reasons since the beginning of time and they often seem to stick, do you think its bad nobody calls Iran 'Persia' anymore?
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Oct 6, 2014 01:15
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V. Illych L. posted:Eh. Talking about the Sudanese conflict you'd hear about "Khartoum is doing X" all the time. It's not uncommon in a full-scale civil conflictlike this. Except you're once again taking it out of context and conflating the government's identity with the populace's identity. 'Washington' or 'The White House' are often used as pronouns to simplify discussion of the actions of the American government or parts thereof. It is entirely appropriate to say something like "Kiev is attempting to negotiate with the Kremlin's mercenary's." It identifies that the lawfully elected government of the country is an actor. But attempting to conflate that actor with "Kievans" as some sort of national identity is Russian propaganda and should be discounted outright. This is a war between Ukraine and Russia, not Kievans and Muscovites.
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Oct 6, 2014 01:27
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Cuntpunch posted:Except you're once again taking it out of context and conflating the government's identity with the populace's identity. Most actors in civil conflicts receive funding, aid and support from outside nations. That would almost be like saying the Ukrainian government is now just one giant Western proxy because they got some aid from the West. Russia is driving this conflict, but you can't deny the civil aspect involved. It is a civil war, as uncomfortable as that idea is for you to process.
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Oct 6, 2014 01:38
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khwarezm posted:This is really drat stupid, how are you even making such a connection that standardizing a name to drop imperial connotations or to closer reflect what its actually called by the locals means that they must lack self confidence?
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Oct 6, 2014 01:43
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Cliff Racer posted:Because thats what it always comes off as. Someone trying to say, look we're a strong nation and have a proud history. Actual strong nations with proud histories don't have to do that, its only people who spend a lot of the time getting their poo poo kicked in who have to. So you think Japan is a weak nation then?
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Oct 6, 2014 01:48
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Nintendo Kid posted:So you think Japan is a weak nation then? Japan hasn't been changing names? Unless you mean the change from Edo to Tokyo which did occur back in a time when Japan felt it had a lot to prove and had a chip on its shoulder about various poo poo.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:02
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Cliff Racer posted:Japan hasn't been changing names? Unless you mean the change from Edo to Tokyo which did occur back in a time when Japan felt it had a lot to prove and had a chip on its shoulder about various poo poo. No you moron, they changed the name from Edo to Tokyo to reflect the Emperor's moving from Kyoto (literally: Capital City) to what was now Tokyo (literally: Eastern Capital). If Japan ever moves their capital again it will probably involve the new capital city being renamed Kyo-something or something-kyo to reflect being a capital - it's a tradition to do so.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:09
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Panas posted:Most actors in civil conflicts receive funding, aid and support from outside nations. That would almost be like saying the Ukrainian government is now just one giant Western proxy because they got some aid from the West. Russia is driving this conflict, but you can't deny the civil aspect involved. It is a civil war, as uncomfortable as that idea is for you to process. By your logic 1978 and 2001 were Afghani Civil Wars, 2003 was an Iraqi Civil War, etc. So long as there's an invasion happening, it's a 'civil war' for the defender? There's a legitimate, fundamental difference between a state going to war with itself and both sides receiving outside support; compared to a state being invaded by troops(regular & irregular) from another state.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:17
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Cliff Racer posted:Because thats what it always comes off as. Someone trying to say, look we're a strong nation and have a proud history. Actual strong nations with proud histories don't have to do that, its only people who spend a lot of the time getting their poo poo kicked in who have to. Then you've probably noticed that places that have such naming problems are usually the target of imperialism and the resulting competition between the native and imposed culture. its easy for somebody in Britain or whatever to get annoyed that everyone can't do things their way but then how can anywhere have the least bit of cultural assertion if that's the attitude to take? Here's a funny little example, the place I grew up in was known as 'King's County' before independence, even its name was part of an attempt to enforce English supremacy in a volatile area (Hilariously, the king in question was later Philip II of Spain, while he was married to Mary, who herself had a neighboring county named in her honour know as 'Queen's county'). In the late nineteenth century the name was changed to to 'Offaly' based off of an ancient kingdom that existed there called 'Uíbh Fhailí'. Now I'm sure that its exact boundaries hardly match the old entity, it didn't share particular continuity with that kingdom beyond its location and most people in and out of the country would have called it 'King's county' if they ever needed to refer to it prior to the change but I can guarantee you that nobody would have a clue what the hell your talking about today if you said you were going to King's county in Ireland and fewer still would have much of an interest in reverting names to a defunct, triumphalist, colonial label unless they were the most pig-headed unionist. And that's kind of an extreme example since it was a name resurrected rather than name locally used that others couldn't be bothered to recognize.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:20
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I didn't go from saying "Peking" to "Beijing" because China has a chip on its shoulder for weakness and paradoxically is somehow forcing me to - I do it because I don't want to sound like an idiot to Chinese people.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:23
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Two Russian men were arrested in Greece after damaging the Acropolis. http://www.wsvn.com/story/26707648/2-russians-arrested-for-damaging-acropolis-wall Bulgaria's GERB party wins parliamentary elections today. http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/extraconservative-gerb-wins-bulgarian-parliamentary-elections---forecasts_358194.html A portrait of Vytautas painted on the side of a building in Grodno, Belarus. 
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Oct 6, 2014 02:32
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vegaji posted:I hate the separatists as anyone, but the Kiev/Kyiv thing is a non-issue. Maybe in 20 years people will say Kyiv, but Kiev is by far the most popular/recognizable option to laymen (despite Ukraine's preference) so it's not really an insult, like 'the Ukraine\на Украине' can be. Those of us who know a bit about Russian/Ukrainian know the difference of course, but no one gets up in arms about Kharkov vs. Kharkiv. The Russian and Ukrainian pronunciations pretty much sound identical when spoken by a native anyway. That's a big part of why I see it as such a non-issue - the English transliteration of "Kyiv" versus "Kiev" doesn't do justice to how similar they actually sound.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:39
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I don't support Russia's meddling in the Ukraine in the slightest, but to be honest I don't see why using "Kievans" as a shorthand for "unitarian Ukranians who support the central government in Kiev" as opposed to "rebel Ukranians who support the separatist government in Novorussia" is that much of a problem?
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Oct 6, 2014 02:47
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kapparomeo posted:I don't support Russia's meddling in the Ukraine in the slightest, but to be honest I don't see why using "Kievans" as a shorthand for "unitarian Ukranians who support the central government in Kiev" as opposed to "rebel Ukranians who support the separatist government in Novorussia" is that much of a problem? Actually, I'm kind of against using it in that way myself. It suggests that the Ukrainian government only represents Kiev, when that's not the case. I don't have a problem with saying "Kiev" to refer to the government, because as others have pointed out, that's the way we refer to other national governments. But nobody talks about supporters of the US government as "Washingtonians," so, yeah.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:54
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Majorian posted:The Russian and Ukrainian pronunciations pretty much sound identical when spoken by a native anyway. No, it doesn't.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:59
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OddObserver posted:No, it doesn't. Yes, it does.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:01
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What DO the Russian/Ukrainian pronunciations sound like? And which syllable does the stress go on? Because just as an English speaker I'd put it on the first syllable for Kiev and the second on Kyiv.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:03
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toe knee hand posted:What DO the Russian/Ukrainian pronunciations sound like? Here's a good blog post on the issue. It's complicated, but when you're saying it quickly enough, "Kiev" and "Kyiv" spoken with proper Russian or Ukrainian accents sound similar enough.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:09
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Majorian posted:Yes, it does. Well, may be people who don't speak either can't tell the difference, 'cause it's frikking obvious to me, as a native speaker of Russian born in Southern Ukraine? toe knee hand posted:What DO the Russian/Ukrainian pronunciations sound like? If you read IPA, Wikipedia is helpful here: Ukrainian: Київ [ˈkɪjiw] (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Uk-%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%97%D0%B2.ogg); Russian: Киев [`kʲijɪf]) I am bad at spotting stress though, though.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:11
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As someone fluent in Russian and Ukrainian languages, I would like to confirm that the pronunciation is distinctly different. Born and raised in Kiev/Kyiv, I might add. Edit: See above
Nitrox fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 03:22
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OddObserver posted:Well, may be people who don't speak either can't tell the difference, 'cause it's frikking obvious to me, as a native speaker of Russian born in I speak Russian, and while there is a difference, it's more subtle than the differences in transliterated spelling would indicate. I overspoke when I said they're identical, but my point is, one shouldn't make using the "Kyiv" spelling some sort of cause célèbre. Majorian fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 03:33
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Cuntpunch posted:By your logic 1978 and 2001 were Afghani Civil Wars, 2003 was an Iraqi Civil War, etc. So long as there's an invasion happening, it's a 'civil war' for the defender? Look if you want to make fallacious comparisons to other conflicts please go right ahead. Discontent towards the central government clearly exists in Ukraine, specifically in those areas in the east that had overwhelmingly supported Yanukovych. This rebellion in the east could not survive unless there was some element of local support for the separatists/russians fighting against Kyiv/Kiev. Ukrainians are also fighting in the separatist ranks and a segment of the population is supporting the rebellion. Pretending that there is no civil aspect in this conflict is absurd and simplifies what is actually happening to a good vs evil comparison that just reaffirms preconceived opinions.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:41
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GET IT GET IT GET IT GET IT dont get electrocuted or killed by a $50 missile counter where russia is their getting support from day 0, and the cops showed up. The corium pooled in the Eastern Ghouta area outside Damascus. But an old CIA tactic from SA where they claimed hilarious things like MSG and poo poo its a chilly 72f here right now mr no it will
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Oct 6, 2014 03:44
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Reverand maynard posted:GET IT GET IT GET IT GET IT dont get electrocuted or killed by a $50 missile counter where russia is their getting support from day 0, and the cops showed up. The corium pooled in the Eastern Ghouta area outside Damascus. But an old CIA tactic from SA where they claimed hilarious things like MSG and poo poo its a chilly 72f here right now mr no it will This is basically what's happening.
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Oct 6, 2014 04:06
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Cuntpunch posted:Except you're once again taking it out of context and conflating the government's identity with the populace's identity. I can't believe the guy named Cuntpunch has dumbass, pedantic opinions about the use of metonyms in a civil war
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Oct 6, 2014 05:56
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Panas posted:Discontent towards the central government clearly exists in Ukraine, specifically in those areas in the east that had overwhelmingly supported Yanukovych. This rebellion in the east could not survive unless there was some element of local support for the separatists/russians fighting against Kyiv/Kiev. Ukrainians are also fighting in the separatist ranks and a segment of the population is supporting the rebellion. Pretending that there is no civil aspect in this conflict is absurd and simplifies what is actually happening to a good vs evil comparison that just reaffirms preconceived opinions. The general consensus of the thread, informed by the best reporting we have out of the region, is that the civil elements of this conflict are nearly nonexistent, but are rather a not-very-well-rendered figeaf for Russian invasion. To the extent that any support exists in Crimea or other parts of the eastern part of Ukraine, they are products of intense, long-term propaganda efforts by Russia, not of internally borne civil disputes. This is a part of what "Russification" was. Take a second and step back here- you're agreeing with Mightypeon on something in the eastern Europe thread- that should be a warning sign.
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Oct 6, 2014 06:21
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