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Steve Jobs was a delusional shithead, though. Are you calling all of our industry captains delusional shi- -oh. Never mind, carry on.
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Oct 6, 2014 04:29
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Japan is the more obvious country which is trying to shift manufacturing away from China. Having EVIL JAPANESE demonstrations and horrible race riots makes Japanese clients and factory bosses really freaking nervous. Workers will also get pissed off if they find out that they are making things for a Japanese company. Foreign companies do like setting up shop in China because of lack of worker problems and great logistics infrastructure. However, a few companies are bucking that trend and moving production back to the home country. Some products in the EU get favourable conditions when made locally. So the producers they order the parts from China and use robots for assembly in Europe. Combined with technology such as computer Enterprise Resource Planning systems and computer calculated cost metrics, EU companies can save on shipping and have a much easier time dealing with warranty and quality issues.
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Oct 6, 2014 04:36
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edit:augh, not relevant sorry
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Oct 6, 2014 05:11
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Can somebody start a North Korean thread. I don't want to go to GBS to ralk about Korean geopolitics. Fun story my best friend/former roommate is Korean, I have a bet with him that Korea will unified before his kid go to college. His daughter is like two years old. His money is on the side that think it won't happen. edit: oh thanks whatever7 fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 05:36
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fart simpson posted:Of course it isn't lost to time. But CPUs aren't the only thing with "yields". We changed manufacture of one product to another factory in south China and experienced 50% yields on a plastic cosmetic part, because the process to produce that part was fairly complicated. If you start moving everything to another country entirely, you'd expect to start seeing issues like this, but worse, and for tons of components in tons of products. It would take quite a while to work all these things out. That's what I'm talking about. I think I have already been clear about this, it wouldn't have to be everything, it would be up to individual businesses either to accept moderately higher costs or keep their manufacturing there. I think some very marginal businesses would move, especially on processes that are replaceable elsewhere. Also, to be honest, any difficulty in relocation is probably an accept investment in the future anyway. You can offer some type of corporate welfare if you really want to do it, but it is really opaque why it wouldn't be a good thing for the US? China is rapidly expanding its military and becoming far more aggressive in its expansion, not to mention everything else going on. It doesn't make strategic sense nor economic sense to keep a unmodified trade relationship with China. Also, I don't know why you think it would "just" would be any single country, that really isn't how trade has ever really worked. It would be pretty much any country but China.
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Oct 6, 2014 06:14
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caberham posted:Japan is the more obvious country which is trying to shift manufacturing away from China. Having EVIL JAPANESE demonstrations and horrible race riots makes Japanese clients and factory bosses really freaking nervous. Workers will also get pissed off if they find out that they are making things for a Japanese company. The other factor is Chinese wages are rising as it approaches middle-income, and a lot of the lower end manufacturing is getting shifted to countries poorer than China.
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Oct 6, 2014 06:17
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Multi national companies already leverage their production to different parts of the world, but for the time being China is more lucrative in terms of skill/flexible costs such as labour and environmental. Some prices like materials and logistics is pretty much the same globally. Everything really depends on the type of end product. It would make more sense making bulky car doors in USA and shipping in door handles from China to get tax benefits than shipping in a whole car and pay import fees.Ardennes posted:You can offer some type of corporate welfare if you really want to do it, but it is really opaque why it wouldn't be a good thing for the US? China is rapidly expanding its military and becoming far more aggressive in its expansion, not to mention everything else going on. It doesn't make strategic sense nor economic sense to keep a unmodified trade relationship with China. Generalization, but specialists being sent abroad probably prefer to being somewhere familiar and comfortable instead of somewhere far off and weird. If you are a typical white American engineer, some factory town in Mexico probably beats a factory town in China. Closer to home, easier to learn the language, similar time zones, similar culture and holidays, etc...
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Oct 6, 2014 07:10
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caberham posted:Generalization, but specialists being sent abroad probably prefer to being somewhere familiar and comfortable instead of somewhere far off and weird. If you are a typical white American engineer, some factory town in Mexico probably beats a factory town in China. Closer to home, easier to learn the language, similar time zones, similar culture and holidays, etc... True, but this is also one of China's remaining strengths as far as outsourcing goes. Shanghai (for the Yangtze delta) or Hong Kong (for the Pearl delta) are much more attractive as a base for foreign managers than, say, Dhaka or Lagos. That's also a reason why even without sanctions a bloody clampdown in HK could really hurt the Chinese economy.
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Oct 6, 2014 08:09
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I'm currently hearing reports that the protests are starting to unfortunately dwindle down, as if the Hong Kongese are silently accepting their fate... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29494885
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Oct 6, 2014 08:50
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The protests are dying down because everyone has work to go to, there will be some more people out tonight.
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Oct 6, 2014 08:58
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Attendance is dwindling down and everyone is getting tired. A few times I thought of just going home but when you hear about sexual assault and protesters being beat up then you getting another uptick. Tear gas was what made more people pissed and show up. This movement is a-central and all sorts of people can show up at different times of the day. Lots of people also show up after work or whenever another incident happens. Everyone is not used to this kind of protest because it's basically a long term occupation of civil disobedience. I'm just surprised that the government hasn't adapted to this scenario when they knew this would happen in a year in advance. Or that even the blue ribbon guys/angry shop keepers resort to violence. If the government brought in a truckload of kids and parents on their knees urging the protesters to go home and LET THE KIDS GO TO SCHOOL then people would feel really bad 
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Oct 6, 2014 09:05
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caberham posted:Attendance is dwindling down and everyone is getting tired. A few times I thought of just going home but when you hear about sexual assault and protesters being beat up then you getting another uptick. Tear gas was what made more people pissed and show up. This movement is a-central and all sorts of people can show up at different times of the day. Lots of people also show up after work or whenever another incident happens. Everyone is not used to this kind of protest because it's basically a long term occupation of civil disobedience. The way to win when this happens is to organize. Make contacts, develop cells, and prepare with full mobilization efforts at the next slight immediately after its given. Do so repeatedly for all slights given. Eventually, you'll begin to organize your own elections for organizing committees. Then, with sufficient time, you'll achieve true democracy.
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Oct 6, 2014 09:16
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Snipee posted:So I really want to donate to support the pro-democracy movements, but I'm an American, and I don't want to make the conspiracy theorists' jobs easier by blatantly sponsoring unrest. What should I do if I care about Hong Kong? You should probably just paypal the money to Caberham. Bloodnose, Lady Galaga, and I know him in real life, and every dollar would be spent to make the protester's lives easier. As an American you should probably refrain from donating money to HK political parties because it is technically a violation of the law unless you are a HK permanent resident. Political parties aren't supposed to receive any donations linked to foreign countries. Likewise, a Hong Kong citizen isn't supposed to donate to the US based Republican Party either for the same reason. Only US citizens are legally allowed to make political donations to US political parties. iceaim fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 10:39
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iceaim posted:You should probably just paypal the money to Caberham. But don't, actually. Every time any of us have gone to any of the supply caches and asked what they needed, they said "nothing." They really don't need donations. The outpouring of support from Hong Kongers themselves has been enormous, to the degree that most of these supply stations have signs saying "please stop donating stuff". Just keep your money. Hold a solidarity rally and stream it online so Hong Kongers can see they have support. All the protesters need is 1. morale and 2. additional protesters.
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Oct 6, 2014 11:16
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The only thing I can see people needing are charged battery packs cos drat those things are hard to find when you're in the middle of a highway.
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Oct 6, 2014 11:20
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So I just recently messaged a friend of mine who is in the police force. I haven't talked to him for ages and asked how he is. His replyquote:I am alright but the worse situation in HK has made HKP very busy and in difficult position. Anyway, we all hope that it will soon resume normal and peaceful. In fact, I am in bad mood when come across some aggressive protestets and see some nonsense movie clips in FB and Whatsapp. And he made tear gas/pepper spray jokes at the end I guess he see's all this as a giant media circus and gives no poo poo about politics and ENFORCING THE LAW. Even if he pepper sprays someone he thinks enough free lance journalists will be out there to monetize the situation. His tends to be super chill but his views are really really different  I guess he's a typical law enforcement officer enforcing the status quo?
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Oct 6, 2014 11:25
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You should change his mind and convince him to lead a coup.
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Oct 6, 2014 11:37
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Because policemen quitting and joining the cause has been such a boon in recent days.
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Oct 6, 2014 11:38
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You obviously don't know what a coup is because it doesn't involve quitting!
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Oct 6, 2014 11:42
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caberham posted:So I just recently messaged a friend of mine who is in the police force. I haven't talked to him for ages and asked how he is. His reply a typical law enforcement officer...
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Oct 6, 2014 14:07
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Broken Cog posted:That's a very good point, and also reminds me of something I've been thinking about for some time. You're already seeing that transition sort of, especially as the Chinese middle class emerges. I think another major role is urbanization, and right now China is about as urbanized as the US was during the Great Depression. If there eventually is a move to greater political freedom (which I think won't happen without some sort of a fight) it will probably be from the bottom up - local areas, and maybe even whole provinces will be subject to more democratic rule (at least the rich coastal areas where you can't push people down too much) but the national machine will probably be the last to go.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:15
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I think the FYGM effect kicks in for the new middle class, not in the American sense of bootstraps, but rather a sense of fortune in not being the poor nong scrubs their forefathers might have been and therefore not wanting to rock the boat or make waves lest they lose their recently-won prize of a half-decent life. On the other hand: My tutoring student's mother is a Canadian expat, and "feels bad for the police" who are obviously the real victims here, thinks that the "students are being used", that it's the protestors who are being violent and basically they should pack up and go home. My moved-to-HK-from-the-Mainland tutoring student was all yellow ribbons and got himself tear gassed. Everyone else middle class in HK seems to have a relative of some sort in the police, so perhaps that has to do with it as well. simplefish fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 15:18
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simplefish posted:I think the FYGM effect kicks in for the new middle class, not in the American sense of bootstraps, but rather a sense of fortune in not being the poor nong scrubs their forefathers might have been and therefore not wanting to rock the boat or make waves lest they lose their recently-won prize of a half-decent life. Yeah, but at best that just puts the issue off for a generation until their kids say "we don't care about rocking the boat, we want X" (the same thing happened with Hispanics in the US after their parents won them the "privilege" of going to college). And that's assuming that there isn't a major downturn in the near future (which there probably will be).
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Oct 6, 2014 16:07
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I've never understood the "students are being used" argument and its variations. It seems to implicitly suggest the protestors are in the pocket of some big, powerful interest group who's tricked them into wanting something like democracy or rights, but if you think like that then surely the police are being even more used as paid enforcers for the status quo? Or hell, who isn't being used if you're going to define "doing something that might also be in the interests of someone more powerful than you" as being used?
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Oct 6, 2014 16:14
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You're not thinking like a Mainlander. Stuff there very rarely happens without the instigation of government or (nowadays) business. There's no civil society, everything is based on hierarchy, individual people are powerless. So when you see thousands of people on the streets, there's the question of who instigated it? What's their goal, because no one would just DO THIS by themselves. I was talking to someone yesterday and they said that it is probably Jiang Zemin's faction of the CCP starting this to mess with Xi Jinping. So I was like, "OK, where's the evidence for that? You're making a claim, where's even a shred of evidence that these are just students being manipulated by some clique of the CCP rather than just listening to the people's own explanations of why they're on the streets?" But when you think about what their history has been like for the last 65 years, along with their culture, it's a lot easier to figure that this is just how they see the world. Which is why they blame it all on America, factions, the UK or a small band of radical leaders, it just makes more sense to them that way.
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Oct 6, 2014 16:32
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Who would have ever thought the protests would inevitably dwindle to nothing once the overwhelming might of the PRC security apparatus applied like 0.1% of its power for a week?
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Oct 6, 2014 17:36
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Alas Boobylon posted:Who would have ever thought the protests would inevitably dwindle to nothing once the overwhelming might of the PRC security apparatus applied like 0.1% of its power for a week? It kind of sounds like it was the opposite problem of what you're suggesting, I think - that is, the fact that they only applied as little as 0.1% of their power failed to generate the outrage and confrontation necessary to revitalize protestors. The protests made it through the big national holiday and that's kind of a clear peak with no obvious milestones coming up. It's not unusual for protestors to eventually decide that eh, they made their point, and nothing else seems to be going on, so they get a little bored/tired and stop turning up. That spat with gang members beating people up sounded like it actually fired people up a little bit, but unless we hear more it might've worn out by now.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:53
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The protests haven't dwindled to nothing and all three camps are still standing so again... are you getting all your news from the Global Times? Or are you more of a China Daily dude?
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Oct 6, 2014 19:14
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Bloodnose posted:But don't, actually. Every time any of us have gone to any of the supply caches and asked what they needed, they said "nothing." They really don't need donations. The outpouring of support from Hong Kongers themselves has been enormous, to the degree that most of these supply stations have signs saying "please stop donating stuff". Just keep your money. Hold a solidarity rally and stream it online so Hong Kongers can see they have support. Guess what boosts morale? Cool things like a sleeping blanket (it's getting windy at night), a yoga mat, an inflatable pillow, free ride home, cakes, etc. Everyone is just too polite to actually ask for stuff. But if you personally offer items besides the usual bottled water and biscuit people get really happy  But yeah, need more protesters and people on the ground. Some level of organization would be great but not a huge central organization previously mentioned. Lots of people actually want to join than just show up but no one is really recruited because the university student groups are a tad cliquey. If people felt part of a team, I'm sure it would be a way to retain membership and encoruage recruitment. I'm tempted to ask more of you guys about cell organization and get into terroist OPs but fear will delve more into Tom Clancy territory again.There also really needs to be people besides the usual younger folks to join. Lots of protesters are feeling all high and mighty about themselves. Which kinds of shut off outsiders from joining in. To rely on tear gasses or violent thugs to swell numbers is not sustainable nor healthy. caberham fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 19:22
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Bloodnose posted:The protests haven't dwindled to nothing and all three camps are still standing so again... are you getting all your news from the Global Times? Or are you more of a China Daily dude? He's just been posting about how the protests are pointless and that the protesters should head home before the police gets rough since the beginning, so I wouldn't take anything he says at face value.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:22
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caberham posted:Guess what boosts morale? Cool things like a sleeping blanket (it's getting windy at night), a yoga mat, an inflatable pillow, free ride home, cakes, etc. Well they have tons of cakes, and I don't know how money would help anyone get a ride home unless you're handing out cash for cab fare (please don't announce to a big crowd of people that you're giving away cash), and the reason you haven't seen soft crap like yoga mats and blankets on the street is because it rains every couple of hours. No one give this man money. Save your money. Or donate it to some other charitable organization that's set up to put it to good use immediately. Like that school in Haiti goons are always supporting. A lot less money will do a lot more good in other places in the world. Any money you give us to spend here would just end up in the pockets of tycoons anyway, who would then use it to pay triads to beat up protesters so it ends up being counterproductive in a weird way.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:30
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Bloodnose posted:Well they have tons of cakes, and I don't know how money would help anyone get a ride home unless you're handing out cash for cab fare (please don't announce to a big crowd of people that you're giving away cash), and the reason you haven't seen soft crap like yoga mats and blankets on the street is because it rains every couple of hours. He's not saying you should give him money, he's saying you should give those things directly to the protestors
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Oct 6, 2014 21:43
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Dolash posted:I've never understood the "students are being used" argument and its variations. It seems to implicitly suggest the protestors are in the pocket of some big, powerful interest group who's tricked them into wanting something like democracy or rights, but if you think like that then surely the police are being even more used as paid enforcers for the status quo? Or hell, who isn't being used if you're going to define "doing something that might also be in the interests of someone more powerful than you" as being used? It's not just mainlanders who have this view but a long of people in HK as well. There's the idea that the protester being manipulated and used because the Occupy Central movement pretty much took over what were originally university student groups and teachers unions boycotting classes just on the 22nd and 26th of September. I'd argue that most people in HK and even China would probably support or at least be comfortable with the idea of universal suffrage but not if it actually costs them time or money. Case in point I had a family member come back from Hong Kong yesterday. She's grown up in a democratic country with compulsory voting all her life but was vehemently against the protesters because it took an hour for her to get to the airport instead of the usual 20 minutes. According to her, the whole plane (Cathay) was complaining about the protesters being inconsiderate because they stopped people from doing their shopping or made the MTR run late. That and Wong Chi Fung is a trouble maker and/or a CIA plant because which 17 year old kid does that kind of stuff instead of focusing on his studies or trying to find a job.
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Oct 6, 2014 23:15
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How commonly is English used in Hong Kong in everyday use compared to Cantonese? Not very relevant I know
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Oct 6, 2014 23:37
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Daily, and almost everywhere even in NT, if you stick to white people things instead of trying to buy paint, for example
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Oct 6, 2014 23:49
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Kegslayer posted:It's not just mainlanders who have this view but a long of people in HK as well. There's the idea that the protester being manipulated and used because the Occupy Central movement pretty much took over what were originally university student groups and teachers unions boycotting classes just on the 22nd and 26th of September. The Communist Part has had long history of manipulating/leading student movements with undercover CCP members to their desired direction, going back to the inception of CCP. It was a very important part of the CCP struggle with the KMT in the cities. In their eyes, no only this was student protest steered by outside forces, the protest organization and tactics were also very amateurishly executed. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 23:56
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whatever7 posted:The Communist Part has had long history of manipulating/leading student movements with undercover CCP members to their desired direction, going back to the inception of CCP. It was a very important part of the CCP struggle with the KMT in the cities. In their eyes, no only this was student protest steered by outside forces, the protest organization and tactics were also very amateurishly executed. You can also see this at work with Uyghurs and Tibetans every loving day- it couldn't possibly be that regular men and women of the minorities are so unhappy that they stopped singing and dancing on their own, they must have been whipped up into an animalistic frenzy by the Dalai/Rebiya Kadeer/Ilham Tohti cliques with their ulterior motives and connections to foreign imperialists.
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Oct 7, 2014 01:13
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Fall Sick and Die posted:The whole textile industry has already made the move from Guangdong to Vietnam. For the garment industry it is India, Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, and far away as Brazil in some instances. The labour is cheaper but not as skilled so many large vendors bounce back every other season back to China. However everyones favourite company Apple has a large investment in Foxconn whom are providing better working conditions and renumeration for workers and attracting many away. The future is not bright.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:08
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Farecoal posted:How commonly is English used in Hong Kong in everyday use compared to Cantonese? Not very relevant I know More than Mandarin, but mainly only on Hong Kong island. Forget it in Kowloon.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:10
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MrMoo posted:For the garment industry it is India, Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, and far away as Brazil in some instances. The labour is cheaper but not as skilled so many large vendors bounce back every other season back to China. However everyones favourite company Apple has a large investment in Foxconn whom are providing better working conditions and renumeration for workers and attracting many away. The future is not bright. Foxconn is in the PRC, right?
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Oct 7, 2014 02:21
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