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Darth TNT posted:
The key difference is that DBZ didn't take a whole chapter to show Yamcha getting an arm through his chest. I doubt we can get a good opinion on DBZ's pacing given the Buu Saga ran in 1993 but here's some points of reference. Cell Saga ends at chapter 226 (excluding DB). Buu shows up at chapter 266, Gotenks at 295, and Vegetto at 309. The final chapter is 325, so the entire Buu Saga was approximately 2 years long. I guess this final arc in Naruto is at something like 5 years now? The Buu Saga was rife with asspull power ups like we're seeing in Naruto, but Toriyama at least kept things moving. Shoren fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 18:26
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They also fought the Androids with a large group! 
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The Buu Saga was stupid, but at least it was fun and short.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:28
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Buu saga was straight up a parody of DB up to that point. If you take it seriously, no duh it's bad. I'd like to believe Naruto's final arc was a parody of terrible final arcs, but I'm pretty sure it's just a terrible final arc.
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Oct 7, 2014 20:00
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Shoren posted:The key difference is that DBZ didn't take a whole chapter to show Yamcha getting an arm through his chest. Yeah, the Buu saga is full of power ups for almost everyone, but at least the bad guys power ups are mostly explained.  We knew Buu ate a fat Kai. We knew there was an evil form. The only thing I'm not sure we knew was the whole kid buu thing. Toriyama probably got lucky in that he didn't try to overcomplicate things.
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Oct 7, 2014 20:30
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Kid Buu was the original form of Majiin Buu. It was weaker than Super Buu (which people mistake a lot), but made up for that by being far more unstable and destructive. The only thing about Buu that was never properly explained was: Good Buu with Evil Buu absorbed = Fat Buu Evil Buu with Good Buu absorbed = Super Buu Super Buu with Good Buu taken away = Kid Buu Shouldn't he have gone back to the skinny Evil Buu? On a more on topic note, how on Earth does the fight that got built up for the whole manga get less chapter devoted to it than the random Kaguya fight? 
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 20:32
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:There's a bit of division on whether or not the Buu Arc was any good. Personally, I thought it was awful aside from how it handled Hercule, mainly due to all of the power-ups that came into existence and were made largely irrelevant shortly afterwards (Super Saiyan 3, Fusion, Ultimate Gohan, etc.). The arc is largely pointless yes but I liked that part of it.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:33
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SS3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan are respectively entirely capable of killing Buu when they first fight him, they just get chumped so the next guy can get a showing. Meanwhile Vegito straight up beats the crap out of Buu at his strongest, he just doesn't want everyone to die so he lets himself get absorbed.Hobgoblin2099 posted:Shouldn't he have gone back to the skinny Evil Buu? Buu losing Buu caused whatever makes him work to do a  , so he pretty much rebooted.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:38
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Kid Buu was the original form of Majiin Buu. It was weaker than Super Buu (which people mistake a lot), but made up for that by being far more unstable and destructive. The easy assumption is that when Good Buu has his melt down that creates Evil Buu, the evil one still has some of the remnants of the Good Buu inside it, whereas when Vegeta rips Fat Buu out of Super Buu he takes every little bit and causes Buu to go full retard again.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:48
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Begemot posted:Well, there's... uh.... I'm also guessing that the reason none of his Akatsuki friend bothered digging him up is because Shikamaru put him there, and there are probably 100 different booby traps and contingency plans designed to dismember and bury anyone who tries.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:20
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BlitzBlast posted:SS3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan are respectively entirely capable of killing Buu when they first fight him, they just get chumped so the next guy can get a showing. Meanwhile Vegito straight up beats the crap out of Buu at his strongest, he just doesn't want everyone to die so he lets himself get absorbed. Vegetto was literally stronger than Buu while transformed as a candy. If ever there was an example of being overpowered, he was it.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:51
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Shoren posted:You kind of have to thank power creep for that because if DBZ was written today then Tien, Yamcha, Chaozu, and Krillen would all get long, drawn-out fights whenever a big bad showed up instead of just the people capable of fighting toe-to-toe with them (ie the Saiyans) I would legitimately have loved the human characters to get more screentime/relevance. I guess its a hard one to gauge because too much of it becomes Bleach with its 'everyone gets a fight no matter how minor'. DBZ could have handled it as it has way less characters than Bleach does.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:06
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The only way is to avoid power creep all together. I don't think I've seen a manga handle it correctly or in a fashion that isn't...shonen. One Piece is the only example where power creeping isn't a major issue, probably because of the way the author sets up his fights and the way other minor characters advance i.e everyone gets gradually stronger. Luffy learning a new move of his enemy was really cool. Anyway this is Naruto and dear god just end already. Sasuke is doing a Lelouch from Code Geass.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:37
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Say Nothing posted:I guess Hidan is still alive because he didn't get Edo'd. He'll die eventually since he can't kill people for his Satanic religion, though.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:44
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Suspicious Lump posted:The only way is to avoid power creep all together. I don't think I've seen a manga handle it correctly or in a fashion that isn't...shonen. One Piece is the only example where power creeping isn't a major issue, probably because of the way the author sets up his fights and the way other minor characters advance i.e everyone gets gradually stronger. Luffy learning a new move of his enemy was really cool. The difference between Oda and most manga writers is that One Piece is already planned all the way to the finish and Oda is mostly filling in arc pieces he's thought up in between the major plot. So sure there's out-of-left-field stuff in the arcs sometimes but it all comes together to feel like one big cohesive world with the power creep staying within the rules of that world. There's no Goku energy beam bullshit outside of rare cases well within the rules of the world like a guy who ate a Devil Fruit that specifically gives him the one power to turn into elemental light. The undisputed strongest man in the entire world in One Piece has come and gone and it's not very likely we'll meet anyone else as tough as him ever, much less have the main character easily surpass him because prophecy/fate/inbreeding. The concept of bloodline making you the person you are is completely shredded and deconstructed in One Piece. Naruto and Bleach are just rear end pull after rear end pull with no buildup or explanation, and all of the power ups are effectively "I have more chakra/ki/my dad is a mega man" and are rarely more interesting than that after the time skip. Oda is a really drat good writer while Kishimoto and Kubo write on your average children's comic level. They're successful because hey, Shonen Jump is a children's comic, but there's a reason One Piece is the best-selling literary work in Japanese history.
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Oct 8, 2014 04:12
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Suspicious Lump posted:The only way is to avoid power creep all together. I don't think I've seen a manga handle it correctly or in a fashion that isn't...shonen. One Piece is the only example where power creeping isn't a major issue, probably because of the way the author sets up his fights and the way other minor characters advance i.e everyone gets gradually stronger. Luffy learning a new move of his enemy was really cool. Togashi avoided power creep pretty deftly in Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter x Hunter, despite the fact that his default state of existence seems to be "napping."
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Oct 8, 2014 04:14
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Oxxidation posted:Togashi avoided power creep pretty deftly in Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter x Hunter, despite the fact that his default state of existence seems to be "napping." The existence of Sensui disagrees for YYH's case. At least, after he pulls out Sacred Energy. Pre that when he was simply a much better fighter was actually a really solid example of avoiding power creep.
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Oct 8, 2014 04:22
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Chickenfrogman posted:The existence of Sensui disagrees for YYH's case. At least, after he pulls out Sacred Energy. Pre that when he was simply a much better fighter was actually a really solid example of avoiding power creep. Between Toguro Jr., Sensui, and Meruem from Hunter x Hunter, Togashi's a big fan of breaking power creep in the sense of "villain who is so powerful that they're flat-out unkillable by conventional means." Sensui's probably the least popular example since the solution to beating him sort of battering-rammed its way onto the scene, but he still didn't carry himself off like a typical shounen villain - he didn't present himself as a looming threat that our heroes must Vaguely Train to defeat, he just fought until he got annoyed enough to smash the "gently caress YOU" button and force a different resolution to come about.
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Oct 8, 2014 05:45
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Oxxidation posted:he didn't present himself as a looming threat that our heroes must Vaguely Train to defeat I hate this so much about shonen manga and it's something One Piece does (and Naruto should've done with sage mode) really well at avoiding. So the heroes go off and "train," but how do they always train just enough to struggle and eventually overcome the villain? One Piece, for instance, has no training arcs whatsoever. Yes, there was the time skip, but that had a clearly defined objective for Luffy (learn a requisite skill for the New World: haki). That's what made Gear Second such an amazing surprise, we never saw Luffy train because it happened off screen. With Naruto sage mode should have been the go-to power up. It wasn't a vague "I've been punching boulders for 5 months so now I'm skilled enough to defeat you!" situation and had a lot of positive benefits for someone like Naruto. In the end it was hardly used, but at least the training had a clear process and outcome.
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Oct 8, 2014 06:23
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Shoren posted:I hate this so much about shonen manga and it's something One Piece does (and Naruto should've done with sage mode) really well at avoiding. So the heroes go off and "train," but how do they always train just enough to struggle and eventually overcome the villain? One Piece, for instance, has no training arcs whatsoever. Yes, there was the time skip, but that had a clearly defined objective for Luffy (learn a requisite skill for the New World: haki). That's what made Gear Second such an amazing surprise, we never saw Luffy train because it happened off screen. With Naruto sage mode should have been the go-to power up. It wasn't a vague "I've been punching boulders for 5 months so now I'm skilled enough to defeat you!" situation and had a lot of positive benefits for someone like Naruto. In the end it was hardly used, but at least the training had a clear process and outcome. The one chapter after Naruto, Sai, and Sakura got their rear end handed to them by Sasuke was all "Oh, he must be using ~forbidden~ jutsus to learn so fast. We've got a way to teach you Naruto but it'll take ~hard work~" 3 chapters later he's done 1+ years of work in a few days because of the magical reveal of his shadow clones/memory retention that he never learned by accident and was never used during his 3 year trip. If anyone still thought that Kishimoto had some grand arching plot at that point had to admit that everything was just an "oh poo poo, I need a way out of this" and so on for the next 5+ years.
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Oct 8, 2014 07:01
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The fact that during this 3-year trip Jiraiya never even talked to Naruto about natural affinity, sage mode or training with clones is mind-boggling. It's as if he was secretly working for the bad guys this whole time.
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Oct 8, 2014 07:17
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Bisse posted:well having not read all of the arc but having knowledge of pretty much what happens in it, I feel like that is actually one of its redeeming features. That actual tactics pay into the battle - the standard powerups just aren't effective on Buu due to his immense reslliance and his instakill touch-of-death attacks, and just cause you to get worn out and exhausted granting Buu the victory on a silver platter, so the characters actually have to think and make difficult but smart choices on how to fight. Ultimately, what kills Buu isn't another power up, but the always fails spirit bomb that Goku learned near the beginning of the show. You could almost see Kishimoto go for that with the sage mode nature chakra being effective against Obito...but then suddenly, never mind power up! Sage mode never amounted to anything. BlitzBlast posted:SS3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan are respectively entirely capable of killing Buu when they first fight him, they just get chumped so the next guy can get a showing. Meanwhile Vegito straight up beats the crap out of Buu at his strongest, he just doesn't want everyone to die so he lets himself get absorbed. But Mystic Gohan was outsmarted by Buu, which fits with his not fighting minded character. SS3 Gotenks loses because he screwed around too much, almost like what you would expect to happen when 10 year olds get ultimate power. Compared to Naruto DBZ was actually pretty well written.
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Oct 8, 2014 07:27
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PiedPiper posted:The fact that during this 3-year trip Jiraiya never even talked to Naruto about natural affinity, sage mode or training with clones is mind-boggling. It's as if he was secretly working for the bad guys this whole time. I don't really have a problem with this because it's not unreasonable to assume that a lot of what Naruto did with Jiraiya was indirect preparation for Sage Mode.
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Oct 8, 2014 07:43
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He could've at least told him that every ninja has at least one natural affinity and then work together on perfecting Naruto's control over wind element. That's not unreasonable, is it?
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Oct 8, 2014 07:49
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The reason why he didn't is simple; Kishi hadn't thought of natural affinity yet.
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Oct 8, 2014 07:51
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RatHat posted:The reason why he didn't is simple; Kishi hadn't thought of natural affinity yet. It's evident that Kishimoto only thought of natural affinity after the time-skip. Not only should Jiraiya have taught it to Naruto during their training trip, something so fundamental to ninja-ing should have been taught to everyone at Ninja Academy.
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Oct 8, 2014 08:21
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Who cares, it's completely fine that kishi only thinks of it post time skip. It would've been way worse if naruto had learned it behind the scenes instead of learning about it with the audience, he would've just pulled out a Rasenshuriken randomly and then only after the cluster gently caress would explain it himself, disconnected from the audience. There are so many things about this manga to criticise, but the introduction of natural affinity thing, IMO, is not one of them.
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Oct 8, 2014 08:45
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Spoilers are out for this week's chapter, and while a lot of it contains what you'd expect, I'd like to get this off my chest: Thank God we're only five chapters away. If I have to see Young Naruto walk by Young Sasuke at the loving pier one more loving time, I will explode. It's eclipsed the Itachi flashbacks at this point. We get it. We get the connection you're trying to make. We got it five years ago, we get it now. Please kill me. 
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Oct 8, 2014 08:53
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So what's the moral of this story?
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Oct 8, 2014 09:58
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? If you're in an abusive relationship with someone - friend, lover, whatever - sacrifice everything for that person.
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Oct 8, 2014 10:00
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? You can do whatever the gently caress you want creatively as long as people keeping buying your product.
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Oct 8, 2014 10:08
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? Hard work matters but not really
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Oct 8, 2014 10:23
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? gently caress magic eyes.
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Oct 8, 2014 10:33
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? Talking about the power of love and friendship is really easy when you are an indestructible god of legends.
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Oct 8, 2014 10:40
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? Spin-offs are better than the original.
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Oct 8, 2014 11:05
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New Issue - http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/695 Great way to spend your last few strips more loving reprints
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Oct 8, 2014 11:50
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Voted Worst Mom posted:So what's the moral of this story? Giant monsters are cool? DeadBonesBrook posted:New Issue - http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/695 There's a lot of emotion in this chapter. 
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Oct 8, 2014 11:51
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What a romantic chapter
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Oct 8, 2014 12:31
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At least Naruto is consistent in its ability to be utter garbage. I'm sure the shocking end hinted at is going to just knock the socks off of every one.
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Oct 8, 2014 13:47
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Since when was Susanoo a giant monster man? Since when can Naruto summon a giant Susanoo Kyuubi? Are these things that have happened before, or am I just mentally repressing every chapter?
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Oct 8, 2014 15:09
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Since when was Susanoo a giant monster man? Susanoo was always a giant monster man, Sasuke was not as proficient at summoning as before Naruto could summon giant kyubi after communing with kurama and learning it from killerbee
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Oct 8, 2014 15:27
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