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Ran into the following OP about non-autism-delusion skepticism of vaccines.quote:If the pro-vaccine advocates want to get anywhere they need to stop wrestling with the few they will never convince, and instead speak to everyone else: cut the attitude, take the concerns seriously enough to know what they actually are, and present clear arguments on the state of the underlying science addressing those concerns. Sounds reasonable. But then the next paragraph is: quote:Take Dr. Sears, who by actually taking concerns about aluminum concentrations seriously and proposing an alternative schedule that addresses it, has probably prevented 100 times more vaccine opt-outs than all the self-righteous shaming screeds on the Internet combined. So I of course google Dr. Sears, to find that he is more like Dr. Oz than a real doctor, and his new schedule is dangerous bullshit based upon a complete lack of understanding of vaccines or the diseases from which they defend. 
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Oct 9, 2014 19:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Ran into the following OP about non-autism-delusion skepticism of vaccines. I love how concern over not wanting kids to live in an iron lung is nothing more than a "bad attitude". Sure, I'm willing to bet the author has no problem addressing the real concerns of people who beat the poo poo out of their kids or starve them as well. Choosing to deny your kid basic healthcare is no less abuse and it boggles my mind that it's not more commonly treated as such.
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Oct 9, 2014 20:01
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yes but you see SV-40 and edit: I'm sorry, I thought this was GBS. I don't have much to seriously add.
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Oct 9, 2014 20:22
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SV-40 is a new one on me in this area. I looked up, and I guess the problem is that some of the earliest polio vaccines were contaminated with it. Is that all there is to it?
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Oct 9, 2014 21:05
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Ran into the following OP about non-autism-delusion skepticism of vaccines. Much like any argument on the internet, I am fairy sure that if you stop and look you will find pro-vaccine groups that cover the whole spectrum of sane to crazy. That said, getting people to vaccinate thier kids is essentially a public relations war and the pro-vax side dropped the ball pretty hard more than once (the handling of the removal of mercury from most vaccines is a good example of it). Dr. Sears however, managed to push out a vaccine schedule that is essentially a truth is in the middle fallacy. Although I am sure it is correct to say that it may have helped to lead to many people to vaccinate their children, Following his schedule basically ignores all the research showing that the actual recommended schedule is safe.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:44
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torpedan posted:Much like any argument on the internet, I am fairy sure that if you stop and look you will find pro-vaccine groups that cover the whole spectrum of sane to crazy. That said, getting people to vaccinate thier kids is essentially a Well, this particular OP I did not run into on the internet, but in our local "alternative" weekly. So it's a bit more than "oh, the interwebs is full of crazy".
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Oct 10, 2014 00:02
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torpedan posted:Much like any argument on the internet, I am fairy sure that if you stop and look you will find pro-vaccine groups that cover the whole spectrum of sane to crazy. That said, getting people to vaccinate thier kids is essentially a The mercury(Thiomersal) in vaccines was a totally low and safe amount. Not to mention it was a different compound of mercury than the type that is poisonous. It was removed because people are scientifically illiterate and there were other alternatives. Not due to any real danger.
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Oct 10, 2014 02:23
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Mrit posted:The mercury(Thiomersal) in vaccines was a totally low and safe amount. Not to mention it was a different compound of mercury than the type that is poisonous. It was removed because people are scientifically illiterate and there were other alternatives. Not due to any real danger. Right, there is a major difference between ethylmercury and methylmercury, but the scientific community did a poor job if conveying that it is safe and when the issue that resulted in thiomerisal removal first came to light did not handle it well (some history here).
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Oct 10, 2014 03:53
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torpedan posted:Right, there is a major difference between ethylmercury and methylmercury, but the scientific community did a poor job if conveying that it is safe Why do you say that? I thought that the scientific community did a great job of studying the effects and proving that Thiomersal is safe. The anti-vaccine movement shrank considerably as more studies proving the safety of this substance came to light, and it shrank again when it was discovered that the autism link was fraudulent. But the true believers can't be dissuaded with evidence The real issue here is the same one that drives irrational causes like anti-GMO, anti-vaccine, and conspiracy theories: people who are inclined to believe specific things ("all natural" homeopathy for instance) are not going to change their mind simply because you've provided evidence that they're wrong. Making this worse is a horde of hucksters who are happy to sell books and fraudulent products that take advantage of the people who are inclined to turn away from fact-based reasoning.
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Oct 10, 2014 04:57
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QuarkJets posted:Why do you say that? I thought that the scientific community did a great job of studying the effects and proving that Thiomersal is safe. The anti-vaccine movement shrank considerably as more studies proving the safety of this substance came to light, and it shrank again when it was discovered that the autism link was fraudulent. But the true believers can't be dissuaded with evidence Do you have any solid evidence that the anti-vaccination shrank, and then shrank again? Of the small number of anti-vaxxers I personally know, a grand total of exactly zero have modified their stance, despite the things you mentioned.
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Oct 10, 2014 07:15
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Centripetal Horse posted:Do you have any solid evidence that the anti-vaccination shrank, and then shrank again? Of the small number of anti-vaxxers I personally know, a grand total of exactly zero have modified their stance, despite the things you mentioned. My observation is anecdotal, just like yours. The evidence is convincing enough to switch a rational person's mind, but not a true believer. I know people who had their opinions changed, and people who didn't
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Oct 10, 2014 08:13
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The anti vac community lived and died with Jenny McCarthy. This is a sad but true fact. She was the driving force behind that bullshit, but now we have a lot of anti government people running the same stupid game. How the gently caress does Jenny McCarthy change the vaccination rates in an entire country? Who loving knows. She did it, and now we have a bunch of other groups and just random people that ascribe to her philosophy.
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Oct 10, 2014 08:24
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Nah she came out of a movement that already existed. The internet focused on her because hey bonus, they got to hate an attractive woman as well.
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Oct 10, 2014 14:24
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Buried alive posted:SV-40 is a new one on me in this area. I looked up, and I guess the problem is that some of the earliest polio vaccines were contaminated with it. Is that all there is to it? yes; some unknown number (but definitely thousands) of people were inadvertently exposed to it because of contamination of the first live polio vaccine from the medium it was grown in. The virus is known to be severely carcinogenic in monkeys, causing mesothelioma. CDC maintains that it's not a dangerous virus in humans, but if you're very  on it then you correlate the timeline of the vaccine to the spike in mesothelioma that was attributed to asbestos, and freak out about it.I think it's a pretty frightening story -- assuming SV-40 is, in fact, not a threat to humans, there's still a nasty thought about "what if it had been?"... but I don't see this as a vaccine issue per se, as much as a general quality assurance problem in the medical domain. Obviously current pharma tech is lightyears beyond what was available in the 50s.
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Oct 10, 2014 15:36
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Tim Raines IRL posted:yes; some unknown number (but definitely thousands) of people were inadvertently exposed to it because of contamination of the first live polio vaccine from the medium it was grown in. The virus is known to be severely carcinogenic in monkeys, causing mesothelioma. CDC maintains that it's not a dangerous virus in humans, but if you're very Yeah, that's why my response was basically  . I mean, you're waging some kind of secret conspiracy war against one of the most well-founded medical procedures in human history, and that's all you've got? They made a mistake that may or may not have had any affects at all? A number of companies once basically sold AIDS to Europe, South America and parts of Asia in the mid-80's/early 90's, but that didn't result in a huge movement against blood transfusions. Because, you know, the science behind blood transfusions is still sound despite that incident. Just like vaccines.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:16
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My boss and her daughter are anti-vaxxers, what's interesting about that is that my boss owns a pathology laboratory and her daughter is the lab manager that tests for a few infectious bacteria like chlamydias and mycoplasmas. What it has come down to for the Lab manager in particular was when she had kids, she read the vaccine inserts and came to the conclusion that the very low risks of high fever/coma/seizures/encephalitis was not something she was willing to take - and reasoned that measles/chicken pox etc aren't that serious to worry about in comparison to that. They also are friends with a few anti-vaccine (mostly deregistered) wholistic doctors, one which told her that if there was a polio outbreak, sure, get the kids the polio vaccine then, but if there isn't there is no need for it. When it comes to some of their thoughts and reasonings, I can agree with it or kinda see their point on why they do have those views, but there's a lot of the anti fluoride, chem trails talk that has come up that just makes them look like they fell off the deep end and it's a real shame seeing some of their other controversial views DO have strong evidence supporting them and that I think they are correct on, such as borrelia/Lyme disease existing in Australia (Government is/has been denying this for years) and the misdiagnosis of patients who have been said to have MS are actually infected with Chlamydia pnuemoniae that causes MS-like symptoms. So yeah, even people in a strong scientific background who are intelligent as hell can be anti-vaxxers.
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Oct 11, 2014 04:18
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Buried alive posted:Yeah, that's why my response was basically Yup, for sure. Every industry fucks up and gets things wrong at some point, without any sinister hidden hand beyond the usual "trying to maximize returns this quarter" and "thinking we're smarter and less error prone than we really are". Early in my career I was considering making a leap from software/testing/process quality, to industrial testing and QA -- and one of the big things that scared me away from that idea was the terrifying Therac-25 fuckups. I can live with myself just fine if my negligence takes a server down; less fine if a bunch of people die horribly as a result. Anyway, I guess my point is that math is hard, science is hard, and vaccine technology is relatively new and very complicated. I think paranoia is a pretty normal human response to being inundated with information that affects your well being which you're not intellectually capable of really parsing. quote:What it has come down to for the Lab manager in particular was when she had kids, she read the vaccine inserts and came to the conclusion that the very low risks of high fever/coma/seizures/encephalitis was not something she was willing to take - and reasoned that measles/chicken pox etc aren't that serious to worry about in comparison to that. Of course, the fallacy in this thinking is failing to realize that the only reason these diseases aren't much more real, significant risks to your kid than they are, is exactly because of the vaccines. If it can be said, for some specific instance of a kid getting boned by a vaccine reaction, "little billy got a brain-damaging fever from a vaccine for a disease he NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN", that's only true because everyone else got the loving vaccine. So, next time someone starts telling you about scary edge-case vaccine reactions, show them this and say "you know what else is super loving dangerous? Measles, polio and your own inability to understand statistics". That's a pretty harsh line to drop on the rare person whose kid actually had a severe and adverse reaction to one of these drugs, but it doesn't seem super likely that there's enough of those people out there for you to bump into them on a regular basis, unless you're trolling support groups or something. I wish we could someone repurpose skepticism of vaccines into skepticism of dropping shitloads of amphetamines and anti-psychotics onto middle schoolers, but that's a whole other can of worms.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:24
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MythLisp posted:They also are friends with a few anti-vaccine (mostly deregistered) wholistic doctors, one which told her that if there was a polio outbreak, sure, get the kids the polio vaccine then, but if there isn't there is no need for it. I like this reasoning a lot. Seat belts? No need to wear them, just quickly put one on when you're about to be hit by another vehicle going 70 MPH down the highway next to you.  You know what would happen to cause a Polio outbreak? If people who aren't protected from it like your kids contract Polio. Man that is painful to read.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:30
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I'm a big fan of the plan to reduce risk to kids saying 'yea a few kids have to be the canary in the coal mine and get fuckin polio so I know to protect my precious little Skye.'
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Oct 11, 2014 18:38
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MythLisp posted:So yeah, even people in a strong scientific background who are intelligent as hell can be anti-vaxxers. Or, in other words, even people with a strong scientific background can have blind spots of gargantuan idiocy. Their "reasoning" is not reasonable nor intelligent, it's trash, and obvious as such, and your deference to authority over critical thinking is absurd. They misinterpreted the relative risks and you're praising them for it? I'm a biology grad student and I have had plenty of arguments with biologist friends about organic foods, nutrition, nuclear energy, and so forth. I've made my own mistakes and jumped to incorrect conclusions along the way, nobody is perfect. The difference is that I don't make utterly retarded decisions based on my failure to act on evidence, I just make bad arguments and feel sheepish for a little bit. When scientists have kids, holy poo poo, so many of them completely lose all sense and ability to think scientifically.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:59
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I shudder to think about what a biology student who is anti-vaccine (or anti-GMO) has to say about nuclear energy
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Oct 11, 2014 21:11
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QuarkJets posted:I shudder to think about what a biology student who is anti-vaccine (or anti-GMO) has to say about nuclear energy Clearly the all-healing power of gamma rays is all we need to fight the blight of disease.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:14
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QuarkJets posted:I shudder to think about what a biology student who is anti-vaccine (or anti-GMO) has to say about nuclear energy It's full of chemicals. Very bad for your body.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:16
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Jack Gladney posted:It's full of chemicals. Very bad for your body. I'd at least agree that ingesting nuclear material would be very bad for your body
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Oct 11, 2014 21:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Clearly the all-healing power of gamma rays is all we need to fight the blight of disease. The cleansing caress of neutron radiation washes away all disease. Also all other life.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:23
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G1mby posted:The cleansing caress of neutron radiation washes away all disease. Also all other life.  Life is dirty. The universe must be cleansed from it using healthy radiation.
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Oct 11, 2014 22:44
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I'm a big fan of the plan to reduce risk to kids saying 'yea a few kids have to be the canary in the coal mine and get fuckin polio so I know to protect my precious little Skye.' you left the apostrophe out of S'kyxe. Also there's an x in it. It's silent.
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Oct 12, 2014 00:09
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Life was terribly fleeting before vaccines. The poo poo you could catch and get serious complications or die to was horrible. And people want to go back to those miserable times, because there's a small chance something might happen to their ~*unique snowflake*~.
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Oct 14, 2014 11:37
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Ihmemies posted:Life was terribly fleeting before vaccines. The poo poo you could catch and get serious complications or die to was horrible. And people want to go back to those miserable times, because there's a small chance something might happen to their ~*Youneek snow'flaykke*~. FIFY.
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Oct 14, 2014 14:30
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Ihmemies posted:Life was terribly fleeting before vaccines. The poo poo you could catch and get serious complications or die to was horrible. And people want to go back to those miserable times, because there's a small chance something might happen to their ~*unique snowflake*~. I don't think it's that people want to go back to that so much as they don't fully realize that's where we'd be heading.
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Oct 14, 2014 14:41
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But back then people had dozens of ~*unique snowflakes*~, more is better right?. Baby shoe makers/job creators also make a killing.
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Oct 14, 2014 15:40
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Ok guys, I need some help. A friend of mine just came to me desperately asking for help. His wife is super anti-vax, anti-everything and he has two kids. The basics are that she's your typical Google PhD, thinks she's done all this "research" on NaturalNews and that the government and big Pharma are conspiring to blah blah blah. They had to leave one pediatrician's office because the kids aren't vaccinated, so they found a more "natural" doctor. She's all about crystals and chiropractic and homeopathy, and he is totally against all of that. But his kid is sick, she's taken him to the doctor and he was given antibiotics, but she refuses to fill them. He wants my help trying to convince her. He says they fight about the kids constantly now, but I basically said I can provide all the evidence I want, but she's fundamentally chosen her position based on fear, not evidence. So anything I give him is going to be hand waived away for *reasons* and the kids still aren't going to get any treatment. I've already told him that eventually he's going to have to decide if he will just take them to the doctor to get their shots and give the meds himself, but has anyone had any success whatsoever in addressing the fear behind this belief? I know just flooding her with research isn't going to work. I have the name of a local pediatrician who is willing to talk to her compassionately and explain everything to her, but I don't know if it will help. Has anybody had any luck in breaking through this mentality? I feel really awful for him and for his kids and want to help him desperately.
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Nov 7, 2014 16:35
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If she's withholding antibiotics, that's straight up criminal neglect. And if he isn't medicating her out of fear of antagonizing her, he's an accomplice. He needs to get that child the medicine he needs, gently caress whatever his wife thinks. That's priority #1 with a bullet.
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Nov 7, 2014 16:39
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SinetheGuy posted:If she's withholding antibiotics, that's straight up criminal neglect. And if he isn't medicating her out of fear of antagonizing her, he's an accomplice. He needs to get that child the medicine he needs, gently caress whatever his wife thinks. That's priority #1 with a bullet. I agree. And going back, he is one of their parents, so he gets to go to the doctor to get them vaccinated. It may lead to a divorce, but kids are paramount.
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Nov 7, 2014 16:43
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Yeah, I know that. From the outside it's easy to say he should just divorce the nut but it's still his wife and he's trying to find a way to keep her happy and his kids safe. She's obviously dealing with some severe anxiety around the whole thing. I'm looking for ways to help him do that, at the end of the day I can't force him to do anything but I would like to help him try to change her mind.
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Nov 7, 2014 17:02
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There isn't much you can do other than give him the information and have her and him see that doctor together. If she still refuses then he will have to just take the kids and get them their shots by himself. The antibiotics need to start being used right away, if she won't give him the prescription to fill then he should contact the doctor who wrote the scrip and see about getting a new one, if that fails or the doctor takes longer than a day take the kid to the hospital and explain the situation.
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Nov 7, 2014 17:42
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copper rose petal posted:Yeah, I know that. From the outside it's easy to say he should just divorce the nut but it's still his wife and he's trying to find a way to keep her happy and his kids safe. She's obviously dealing with some severe anxiety around the whole thing. I'm looking for ways to help him do that, at the end of the day I can't force him to do anything but I would like to help him try to change her mind. Ignore the divorce stuff for a minute and understand that as a parent, a child's safety is of paramount concern - end of story. Your friend needs to get that prescription filled NOW, make sure the kid takes the ENTIRE COURSE of antibiotics, and then get the kids vaccinated. If you want to help convince your friend that yes, this is serious poo poo. If you can't, call CPS. As far as the wife's anxiety is concerned, that poo poo comes later. Right now a kid is sick from an easily treatable illness that if goes on for too long can have serious health consequences. This is something people regularly died from before antibiotics came about, so time is kind of important here! I mean, I don't loving get this - the discussion should have ended at "the kid is sick and a parent is denying access to basic medical care". What would you do instead if the mother were starving, beating to the point of breaking bones, or sexually abusing the child instead? I'm not going to sit here and quantify which is worse, but denying a child basic medical care is certainly in the same league.
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Nov 7, 2014 18:33
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copper rose petal posted:Ok guys, I need some help. Why did he marry an anti-vaxxer? Actually this is even worse, she's like an anti-medicine person or something. Even anti-vaxxers will take antibiotics when they're very ill
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Nov 7, 2014 19:36
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Solkanar512 posted:Ignore the divorce stuff for a minute and understand that as a parent, a child's safety is of paramount concern - end of story. Your friend needs to get that prescription filled NOW, make sure the kid takes the ENTIRE COURSE of antibiotics, and then get the kids vaccinated. If you want to help convince your friend that yes, this is serious poo poo. If you can't, call CPS. Basically this. If she has bought into woo full hard core, convincing her otherwise is most likely going to be a very length process. She is in a spot not very different from any other conspiracy theorist and even when presented with facts will most likely move goal posts and blatantly ignore scientific consensus. If you force the issue too hard people will basically shut down or go full defensive and you will get no where. Barring immediate care for the well being of the children, if they have the money he should see a martial counselor. To me the right answer is to remove the kids from the situation and get the sick child(ren) the medical care they need, but doing that would willfully destroy what your friend is trying to save. They clearly have divergent views that generally cannot coexist and a third party may offer some mitigation or help your friend realize/accept that he needs to take action and that his marriage will likely end as a result of it. QuarkJets posted:Why do you say that? I thought that the scientific community did a great job of studying the effects and proving that Thiomersal is safe. The anti-vaccine movement shrank considerably as more studies proving the safety of this substance came to light, and it shrank again when it was discovered that the autism link was fraudulent. But the true believers can't be dissuaded with evidence I totally missed this post from a while back. The bigger is that they did not handle things well immediately after it was pulled from the use in the US. In hindsight it has been proven safe, but basically concern trolls were able to get the upper hand on them media wise at the time.
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Nov 7, 2014 19:37
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copper rose petal posted:Ok guys, I need some help. It's harsh, but google and force her to look at pictures of children who have died from what her kids have. Worked to convince my sister to stop being stupidly unsafe with her kids.
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Nov 7, 2014 19:41
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