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Nessus posted:Do you understand the difference between "Solars are the most powerful" and "Solars are so archetypically the most powerful that all other Exalted must be designed with the full understanding of Solar supremacy in mind"? I do not object to #1. I do object to #2. If I am playing a Lunars game, why do my Charms need to be weird and lovely? Different, sure, and perhaps even not 'topping out' as high as a Solar's, if you insist. Actually, I don't understand the difference. It sounds like you've just phrased the same thing two different ways with the expectation that the second way will suddenly make me sympathetic to your hurt feelings. It didn't, though. LGD posted:So why are Dawns better at fighting than a Full-Moon then? Shouldn't their purview be limited to being the best combatants of human scope? And defining "fight a guy" as something that is "abstract, epic and quest-level" is hilarious. Knowing which baby will grow to be a king is a nice trick, but again why are we doing that? Is it to make sure the land will be united? Well a Solar can do that themselves, or if they can't be bothered, can easily inspire and train someone to do that for them. Breathing under water is canonically an outgrowth of Solar mastery of the Survival skill, and like many Solar charms not a particularly natural outgrowth of the human condition. Because Dawns are the best fighters. If a Full Moon turned into an entire forest or a kaiju or something, I imagine a Dawn Caste Exalt wouldn't really be able to do much about that, though - not without getting in a warstrider or putting on some Attack On Titan 3D movement gear or jumping down the kaiju's throat and fighting all the way to the end of the dungeon therein, though. Breathing underwater is canonically an outgrowth of 2E survival, but I bet we won't see it in 3E. I bet we'll see Solars holding their breath for hours or something like that. There's a pretty strong downplaying throughout the leaked playtest of all those "I've installed some Deus Ex nanoaug" Charms - for instance, Immunity To Everything Technique, last I read, makes you immune to any disease or poison that you've already survived. It's all contingent on means, though. Non-Solars have means that Solars lack. Like, even if the Solar charmset doesn't allow you to just walk around on the ocean bottom naked, a Solar could always build a submersible or cast a spell or build an artifact diving suit or something. quote:Which was a series of discrete games that had disparate mechanics, sketchy integration of different gamelines lore, and in many cases completely incompatible metaphysics. This is different from Exalted and you know it. And again, the information flows both ways. What lessons should Lunar/Sidereal PCs be drawing here? No, not at all. The World of Darkness - the new one, the one with Vampire: the Requiem and Hunter: the Vigil in it - is entirely integrated, with completely consistent mechanics and rules totally friendly to crossover. oWoD lines effectively took place in separate universes, but HtV and VtR do not.
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Oct 9, 2014 22:52
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Ferrinus posted:Actually, I don't understand the difference. It sounds like you've just phrased the same thing two different ways with the expectation that the second way will suddenly make me sympathetic to your hurt feelings. It didn't, though. Let's say all the splats get scored from 1-10 in various arbitrary categories, the details don't matter. In version #1, the Solar has the highest total score. In version #2, the Solar has the highest total score - AND, nobody can have a higher score in any arbitrary category than the Solar, except by defining a sub-specialty of that category. I have no objection to #1, that's OK. #2 constrains the others who aren't Solars, and I don't think this actually benefits anything in terms of making a better or more fun game. e: While I am at it, this Ferrinus posted:The usurpation was really hard. If the First Age had been ruled by corrupted and insane Dragon-Blooded guided by malefic Sidereal advisors, a bunch of Solars and Lunars would've had a much easier time assassinating the people in charge and taking over.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:04
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Nessus posted:No, I think they are different things. I will make another facile analogy, since I love doing that! But #1 is what we have. Solars have 10s in "Dawn", "Zenith", etc. but much lower scores in shapeshifting, prophecy, necromancy, etc. Of course, that's not what this is about. You just want to be able to say "Look, it's okay that your Dawn Caste has an 8 in combat to my Lunar's 10, because you could hypothetically have had a 10 in business administration to my Lunar's 3! That's more total points!" quote:e: While I am at it, this seems to trivialize what appears to be one of the core examples of a conflict in the game. Ha ha! Your job is MUCH easier than that of the people whom you're bumping off! But it's also true. Dragon-Blooded usurping Solars were in for the fight of their lives and were probably more likely to lose than win. Solars usurping Dragon-Blooded would be done in time for supper. That's the point - that's what makes the usurpation a big deal.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:11
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Ferrinus posted:But it's also true. Dragon-Blooded usurping Solars were in for the fight of their lives and were probably more likely to lose than win. Solars usurping Dragon-Blooded FTFY
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Oct 9, 2014 23:18
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Ferrinus posted:Of course, that's not what this is about. You just want to be able to say "Look, it's okay that your Lunar has an 8 in combat to my Dawn Caste's 10, because you could hypothetically have had a 10 in shapeshifting to my Dawn Caste's 3! That's more total points!" ?
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Oct 9, 2014 23:18
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Ferrinus posted:But #1 is what we have. Solars have 10s in "Dawn", "Zenith", etc. but much lower scores in shapeshifting, prophecy, necromancy, etc. All the Solar stuff you're defining seems to be "doing stuff like a human being." The thing is that all the other people will also do stuff like a human pretty often. An Abyssal may hit someone with a sword. A Lunar may argue with a merchant. A Sidereal may have to pilot a ship. It is fair to say that Joe Solar is better than Joe Abyssal/Lunar/Sidereal, assuming equal training in a frictionless flat surface, at these abilities. But I do not think the gap should be enormous, early on, and it should be possible for Joe A/L/S to use their special trick to bridge that gap or even exceed it. In my ideal world, the rules and fluff do not have an air of 'well, what you did was cool and all, but just think, if you'd been a Solar, it would have REALLY been great' - especially if you are doing a story, for instance, about Lunars fighting the Realm and the Fair Folk at the fringes of the North, and you have no plan to include Solars.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:19
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Ferrinus posted:But it's also true. Dragon-Blooded usurping Solars were in for the fight of their lives and were probably more likely to lose than win. Solars usurping Dragon-Blooded would be done in time for supper. That's the point - that's what makes the usurpation a big deal. Yes, designing a game around your primary antagonists being a trivial non-concern over whom you will inevitably and effortlessly triumph. This is desirable.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:19
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A_Raving_Loon posted:Yes, designing a game around your primary antagonists being a trivial non-concern over whom you will inevitably and effortlessly triumph. But the Terrestrial may not be alone, he may have tricks; his resources (better gear) may make things better; perhaps he wounds the Solar, or delays him long enough for his sworn brothers to hit him with an artillery piece. The Terrestrial might have been trained in an exotic martial art that the Solar has never heard of. (And perhaps the Solar could learn it, if he can somehow persuade that Terrestrial to become his ally.) And if the Terrestrial is teaming up with his sworn brothers he should have the advantage - or the potential for it - I'd say. And in no case should one of the Ten Thousand Dragons be a trivial speedbump, outside of some kind of gonzo major military affair where you can probably start ignoring DB junior officers or wrapping them in with their troops.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:24
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Nessus posted:It is fair to say that Joe Solar is better than Joe Abyssal/Lunar/Sidereal, assuming equal training in a frictionless flat surface, at these abilities. But I do not think the gap should be enormous, early on, and it should be possible for Joe A/L/S to use their special trick to bridge that gap or even exceed it. In my ideal world, the rules and fluff do not have an air of 'well, what you did was cool and all, but just think, if you'd been a Solar, it would have REALLY been great' - especially if you are doing a story, for instance, about Lunars fighting the Realm and the Fair Folk at the fringes of the North, and you have no plan to include Solars. See, this is just weird and crazy. Who thinks like that? "All right! We've defeated the goblin raiders!" "Perhaps you have... but imagine how much faster you'd have defeated them if instead of a team of rag-tag adventurers you were the primordial titans awakened at last from their slumber. Not feeling so good about your victory now, are you? May those 250xp turn to ash in your mouths." A_Raving_Loon posted:Yes, designing a game around your primary antagonists being a trivial non-concern over whom you will inevitably and effortlessly triumph. Are you, uh... are you folks feeling okay?
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Oct 9, 2014 23:24
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Ferrinus posted:Are you, uh... are you folks feeling okay?
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Oct 9, 2014 23:26
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Nessus posted:I dunno, I was just talking with some guy who assumes disagreement with his opinions on an RPG was a sign of emotional disturbance or possible derangement. That was kind of annoying. Imagine how much better you'd have talked if you were Nobel Peace Prize winner and renowned speechgiver Barack Obama, though. So much for all those posts you made!
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Oct 9, 2014 23:28
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Nessus posted:I dunno, I was just talking with some guy who assumes disagreement with his opinions on an RPG was a sign of emotional disturbance or possible derangement. That was kind of annoying. You probably shouldn't talk to yourself then. 
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Oct 9, 2014 23:31
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Ferrinus posted:Imagine how much better you'd have talked if you were Nobel Peace Prize winner and renowned speechgiver Barack Obama, though. So much for all those posts you made! Anyway the annoying thing here is stuff like "well Solars are really good at engaging in tasks and accomplishing epic quest goals! But an Abyssal is really good at necromancy!" These do not feel like comparable categories, and it isn't even that the Solar has a broader category, it is that the Solar's category here is like... "90%+ of everything," while the Abyssal's is "a relatively flexible but sharply limited trick." It reads like Scion. Are you comfortable with saying Scion was OK?
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Oct 9, 2014 23:33
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Ferrinus posted:Because Dawns are the best fighters. If a Full Moon turned into an entire forest or a kaiju or something, I imagine a Dawn Caste Exalt wouldn't really be able to do much about that, though - not without getting in a warstrider or putting on some Attack On Titan 3D movement gear or jumping down the kaiju's throat and fighting all the way to the end of the dungeon therein, though. quote:Breathing underwater is canonically an outgrowth of 2E survival, but I bet we won't see it in 3E. I bet we'll see Solars holding their breath for hours or something like that. There's a pretty strong downplaying throughout the leaked playtest of all those "I've installed some Deus Ex nanoaug" Charms - for instance, Immunity To Everything Technique, last I read, makes you immune to any disease or poison that you've already survived. edit: Ferrinus posted:But #1 is what we have. Solars have 10s in "Dawn", "Zenith", etc. but much lower scores in shapeshifting, prophecy, necromancy, etc. LGD fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 9, 2014 |
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Oct 9, 2014 23:36
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LGD posted:Which would be cool, but that isn't how 1st or 2E were set up, and that's fundamentally an example of a Lunar's purview enabling them to match or exceed what the Dawn can do in terms of achieving the highly abstract end result of "beating on dudes." That's actually something I'd like to see! The problem is that there has been a tendency to insist Ultimate Kaiju Prana needs to be crippled because otherwise they'll be as good/better than a Dawn at fighting and no one can match a Dawn at fighting. Here's another thing with the 'the non-Solar wins by cheating,' what happens if the Solar also cheats?? Then we get us a Joseph Joestar situation!
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Oct 9, 2014 23:39
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Nessus posted:You assume I am not, in fact, Barack Hussein Obama. I'm still alive, aren't I? quote:Anyway the annoying thing here is stuff like "well Solars are really good at engaging in tasks and accomplishing epic quest goals! But an Abyssal is really good at necromancy!" These do not feel like comparable categories, and it isn't even that the Solar has a broader category, it is that the Solar's category here is like... "90%+ of everything," while the Abyssal's is "a relatively flexible but sharply limited trick." Abyssals are narrower in scope than Solars, but certainly equal in power. Like, presumably a Daybreak is just at great at crafting as a Twilight, as long as they're crafting something black and spiky. Are we even worried about Abyssals? I thought this was like Solars vs. Lunars/Sidereals/DBs, not Solars vs. corrupted or transmogrified Solars. I think people are mixing up a given splat's hypothetical infinite versatility/omnicompetence with its actual versatility and competence. It's like when people tell you that fighters are the most versatile class in D&D because they can be archers or knights or berserkers or swashbucklers or bouncers or templar or whatever. They actually can't - they can be one of those things. "Versatile in chargen" isn't "versatile in play." If the option exists to make a Solar combatant or a Solar spy, but it turns out that combatant or spy isn't really any better than a Lunar or Alchemical or w/e combatant or spy - but that's okay, because you could've also made a pretty good diplomat, or a pretty good artisan, or a pretty good sorcerer! - then there's been a bait and switch. If Solars are the best, they should be the best in practice, not in theory. Otherwise you have on your hands the 3e fighter, or the 13th age druid.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:41
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LGD posted:Which would be cool, but that isn't how 1st or 2E were set up, and that's fundamentally an example of a Lunar's purview enabling them to match or exceed what the Dawn can do in terms of achieving the highly abstract end result of "beating on dudes." That's actually something I'd like to see! The problem is that there has been a tendency to insist Ultimate Kaiju Prana needs to be crippled because otherwise they'll be as good/better than a Dawn at fighting and no one can match a Dawn at fighting. Well, I'm in complete agreement with you there. To echo DOCTOR ZIMBARDO, I'm happy to see Solars out of their depth and struggling to either reach out for some sort of backup or retreat and assemble some kind of plan when a situation escalates or warps beyond the human scale. Mind you, if I am not playing a duelist, but instead playing, I don't know, an artillery-specialized sorcerer/artificer, or a Dawn caste general with an entire siege weaponry-equipped army to pilot around, or something, I may well be able to take out Lunar Godzilla if I've got equal amounts of XP invested. On the other hand I will probably lose a straight swordfight. quote:Wandering around naked on the ocean floor without giving a gently caress is canonically an outgrowth of the 1E core, so I'd be very surprised if we didn't see it in 3E. Through the past few editions Solar charms have not been particularly contingent on means at all, and when they have those means have been so easy to access that they don't serve as a genuine limitation. Having the tools on you isn't a real benefit if they constantly achieve worse results in what is supposed to be your specialty than what this other guy can do if he walks to the corner store first. I can't actually remember what the leaked Survival charms look like - in fact, let me check - -ah, no, bad news. It looks like Essence 3/Survival 5 in the leaked draft does let you survive under water for 5m/day. I think that's honestly a bit lame - it feels like there should be some threshold past which just being a high-Essence Solar doesn't carry you. Maybe the bottom of a lake's different from the bone-crushing pressure of the deepest ocean...? There are relatively few Survival charms listed, though, and most of those are about increasing your pet's size by 10%, so fingers crossed.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:49
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Ferrinus posted:Well, I'm in complete agreement with you there. To echo DOCTOR ZIMBARDO, I'm happy to see Solars out of their depth and struggling to either reach out for some sort of backup or retreat and assemble some kind of plan when a situation escalates or warps beyond the human scale. quote:I can't actually remember what the leaked Survival charms look like - in fact, let me check - *Which they are unambiguously the best at, so this particular example probably doesn't matter much. LGD fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 00:01
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LGD posted:Which is again fine- that's moving the battle to a different arena of expertise. The point is that unique powers of the other Celestials need to enable them to achieve equivalent results in their areas of focus or people need to bite the bullet and admit that yes they do want Solaroids to be better than anyone else at literally everything. Which is a position you can take, it's just one that leads to certain consequences for the game that I feel are boring and bad. The crucial distinction is that between "Solars" (gently caress you I won't type what you tell me), the group, being better than anyone else at literally everything, and "a Solar", the individual, being better than anyone else at literally everything. Certainly, a Solar who had literally infinite experience points, all of their traits maxed, and all of their Charms purchased would probably be able to defeat any other single playable character in broad contests like "kill this creature" or "steal this object", but... yes? An actual Solar is a specialist, not a generalist, just like an actual D&D fighter or whatever is. Maybe they're bleedin' amazing at two or three things instead of one thing, but they're not omnicompetent because no one is.
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Oct 10, 2014 00:04
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Ferrinus posted:The crucial distinction is that between "Solars" (gently caress you I won't type what you tell me), the group, being better than anyone else at literally everything, and "a Solar", the individual, being better than anyone else at literally everything. Certainly, a Solar who had literally infinite experience points, all of their traits maxed, and all of their Charms purchased would probably be able to defeat any other single playable character in broad contests like "kill this creature" or "steal this object", but... yes? It's not a crucial distinction at all- they're no more specialist than anyone else is. That Lunar invested all of his points into being a fighting man-thing, or a sneaky man thing, or whatever. If their unique abilities do not enable them to achieve good results on common tasks that occur frequently in play (such as "kill this creature" or "steal this object") then those unique abilities are not actually doing anything- they're simply inferior to Solaroids (haha eat it) in anything they choose to do. Being able to turn into a bird or not while accomplishing that task is irrelevant and any discussion of power sources is simply a distraction from the assertion that Solaroids should dominate every activity in the game relative to other Exalted (regardless of what it is or how it relates to the various themes and powers of those Exalted). You can do that, but at least be honest about what it is you're arguing for. LGD fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 00:11
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But they do. Those abilities do allow them to achieve good results - good results simply inferior to those achievable by Solars, Abyssals, or Infernals. Therefore, those abilities are in fact doing a thing. Your "inferior to Solar equivalent" -> "not actually doing anything" conditional does not make sense.
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Oct 10, 2014 00:15
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Ferrinus posted:But they do. Those abilities do allow them to achieve good results - good results simply inferior to those achievable by Solars, Abyssals, or Infernals. Therefore, those abilities are in fact doing a thing. It makes them superfluous except as purely inferior replacements for Solars. They bring nothing genuinely unique to the table and can achieve nothing a Solar could not achieve more easily, and makes the entire game about Solars and how totally rad they are in a way that it otherwise does not need to be. It absolutely deprotagonizes the other Celestials and makes the game significantly more boring overall.
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Oct 10, 2014 00:23
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Ferrinus posted:See, this is just weird and crazy. Who thinks like that? Ferrinus posted:But they do. Those abilities do allow them to achieve good results - good results simply inferior to those achievable by Solars, Abyssals, or Infernals. Therefore, those abilities are in fact doing a thing. 
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Oct 10, 2014 00:23
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Okay, hypothetical, Ferrinus. I'm playing in a cross-splat game with a Lunar and a Solar bondmate, a renegade Abyssal, and a Sidereal advisor, all in the same party. They have an equivalent amount of XP. Two of these characters are both specced towards the same emphasis; the Lunar and the Solar are both combat monsters, or the Abyssal and the Sidereal are both diplomats, or whatever. Should one of them be clearly superior and throw off party balance because it's canon that Solars are superior to Lunars (or whatever else)?
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Oct 10, 2014 00:42
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LGD posted:It makes them superfluous except as purely inferior replacements for Solars. They bring nothing genuinely unique to the table and can achieve nothing a Solar could not achieve more easily, and makes the entire game about Solars and how totally rad they are in a way that it otherwise does not need to be. It absolutely deprotagonizes the other Celestials and makes the game significantly more boring overall. Okay, see, but no. This is crazy thinking. This isn't how roleplaying games work. We're playing D&D. You roll up a wizard. You cast a- wait! No, stop! You know who'd cast an even better spell? Corellon, the god of arcane magic. Put your character sheet into the shredder, you're done. We're playing Exalted - not the real Exalted, but the version of Exalted that you yourself have written. You make a Lunar, and buy a social charm that - wait, no! Even though Lunars are better at fighting and sneaking than Solars are in this world, they're not better at exerting social influence! What are you doing? You're deprotagonizing yourself! Use only the powers that your specific character splat does absolutely best, moron! So you buy Deadly Beastman Transformation, and you- poo poo! poo poo! You know who's even more powerful than you are with your DBT? Ma-Ha-Suchi with his DBT! Deprotagonized again! There's simply no escape! Cycloneman posted:Okay, hypothetical, Ferrinus. I'm playing in a cross-splat game with a Lunar and a Solar bondmate, a renegade Abyssal, and a Sidereal advisor, all in the same party. They have an equivalent amount of XP. Two of these characters are both specced towards the same emphasis; the Lunar and the Solar are both combat monsters, or the Abyssal and the Sidereal are both diplomats, or whatever. Should one of them be clearly superior and throw off party balance because it's canon that Solars are superior to Lunars (or whatever else)? Yes.
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Oct 10, 2014 00:45
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Ferrinus posted:Yes.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:00
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Nessus posted:Why? Same reason a ghoul swordsman in a Vampire game is going to put out less damage than a Daeva swordsman in a Vampire game. It's how the setting works. Of course, I think Cycloneman's inclusion of "throw off party balance" was really dishonest, because a point-buy game in Exalted doesn't actually have "party balance" (what if that Lunar warrior wasn't a warrior at all? What if they were a Solar diplomat? What if they were an unExalted sidekick? This isn't a game with CR and encounter size/level guidelines) and a Lunar fighter probably has salient qualities that make them useful in places a Solar isn't even if the Solar will probably, or even definitely, beat the Lunar in a white room fight. But, hell, even if all those things weren't true, Exalted is about inequality.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:06
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, see, but no. This is crazy thinking. This isn't how roleplaying games work. So you're denying that powerful NPCs can overshadow and deprotagonize PCs if they have similar power sets and take an active part in the game in anything less than a purely antagonistic role? Or that a character who can do everything someone else can do (and more) better than they can tends to sideline and deprotagonize that PC?  It isn't crazy thinking at all- it makes cross splat play among different Celestials (something people do like) quite bad as there isn't actually any sort of niche protection or unique thing non-Solaroids do better, it generally makes the kung fu-fights worse, and has bad knock-on effects all throughout the gameline- the setting fluff becomes increasingly centered around sucking Solar dick over time and the mechanics of the other splats are hampered/badly implemented because they cannot ever be allowed to exceed what a Solar could do in any field. edit: Ferrinus posted:Same reason a ghoul swordsman in a Vampire game is going to put out less damage than a Daeva swordsman in a Vampire game. It's how the setting works. And what "salient qualities" does that Lunar have that the Solar doesn't? The Solar should be better than the Lunar in any field/activity with an equivalent amount of XP invested. LGD fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 01:09
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Ferrinus posted:Of course, I think Cycloneman's inclusion of "throw off party balance" was really dishonest, because a point-buy game in Exalted doesn't actually have "party balance" (what if that Lunar warrior wasn't a warrior at all? What if they were a Solar diplomat? What if they were an unExalted sidekick? This isn't a game with CR and encounter size/level guidelines) and a Lunar fighter probably has salient qualities that make them useful in places a Solar isn't even if the Solar will probably, or even definitely, beat the Lunar in a white room fight. But, hell, even if all those things weren't true, Exalted is about inequality. Ghouls and vampires are not really supposed to be members of the same party. The existence of the bond concept/mechanic suggests the same is not true for Solars and Lunars.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:15
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LGD posted:So you're denying that powerful NPCs can overshadow and deprotagonize PCs if they have similar power sets and take an active part in the game in anything less than a purely antagonistic role? Or that a character who can do everything someone else can do (and more) better than they can tends to sideline and deprotagonize that PC? Let's apply this to the Silmarillion. Noldor are simply going to be more powerful, more capable than Sindar, and Sindar better than Edain and Naugrim. This doesn't prevent characters from surpassing Noldor, since an Edain and Sindar managed to steal a Silmaril where all the hosts of the Noldor failed, and later a half-Edain half-Noldor manages to do what none of the slain Noldor had done in winning the Valar over to fighting Morgoth. But if Beren went hand-to-hand with Thingol or Fingolfin or Maedhros, he would lose unless he had a lot of luck on his side. Does this mean that a First Age roleplaying game can't be faithful to the source, or that Noldor would need lots of mechanics to make playing them a pain and keep them "on the level" with Edain?
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Oct 10, 2014 01:18
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Cycloneman posted:Ghouls and vampires are not really supposed to be members of the same party. The existence of the bond concept/mechanic suggests the same is not true for Solars and Lunars. And the vast gulf in power level there is clearly intentional and the ghoul is dependent upon the Vampire and draws its power from the same source. A more apt comparison would be a Werewolf never being able to match an equivalent Vampire in combat because we've declared Vampires to be the best at literally everything by fiat. Why is this so, and why is this a good thing for the World of Darkness game? It's apparently just the way the setting is and can't be examined.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:21
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LGD posted:So you're denying that powerful NPCs can overshadow and deprotagonize PCs if they have similar power sets and take an active part in the game in anything less than a purely antagonistic role? Or that a character who can do everything someone else can do (and more) better than they can tends to sideline and deprotagonize that PC? Actually, it is. You are fundamentally confused. You have "power" confused with "protagonism". You think that you aren't the protagonist unless you're also the most powerful. But that's not how it works. Frequently, the protagonist of a story is among the least powerful or established of its characters. The Dragon-Blooded and Sidereals were the protagonists of the usurpation. quote:But why is it actually better that it works this way, rather than in a way where, say, the other Celestials match Solars in terms of one-on-one fighting and other things that are inside their purviews? This is a pure hypothetical because it might end up getting set up entirely differently, but maybe the Solar at their peak is more powerful than the Lunar at their peak, but the Solar's peak is more short-lived/costly to access and the Lunar's much more capable of absorbing attrition and bad luck. A Solar can fight twenty men without even getting scratched, but she's winded afterwards. A Lunar does it much more sloppily and even more slowly, but didn't need to spend Essence to do it and can just chill for fifteen minutes while their wounds get healing factor'd away. Cycloneman posted:There is totally still a degree of party balance in point-buy games, that's why I specifically mentioned that two of them had similar specs. If a Solar is better than a Lunar at either fighting or talking, then it can work fine, because the Solar can shine during diplomacy scenes and the Lunar can shine during fighting scenes, even if, had their specs been reversed, the Solar would be a better fighter than the Lunar is, and is a better diplomat than the Lunar would be. But if both characters have a similar emphasis, and one of them clearly outclasses the other in the area, I don't see how you can describe that as anything other than throwing off party balance. I told you: "party balance" is not a thing in Exalted. The game doesn't revolve around any specific group activity and there is no onus for every character to be equally good at that group activity. If they're not, that's just part of the story. If I elect to play a ghoul in a Vampire game, or if I elect to play an Essence 1 newly-Exalted Solar in a game of Essence 3 established Solars - perhaps one who's taken on one of the established Solars as their fencing master, even! - I do so with full expectation that my character is visibly less effective than everyone else's, and indeed that at least some of the drama surrounding my exploits will revolve around the fact that I'm out of my depth.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:26
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Effectronica posted:Let's apply this to the Silmarillion. Noldor are simply going to be more powerful, more capable than Sindar, and Sindar better than Edain and Naugrim. This doesn't prevent characters from surpassing Noldor, since an Edain and Sindar managed to steal a Silmaril where all the hosts of the Noldor failed, and later a half-Edain half-Noldor manages to do what none of the slain Noldor had done in winning the Valar over to fighting Morgoth. But if Beren went hand-to-hand with Thingol or Fingolfin or Maedhros, he would lose unless he had a lot of luck on his side. Does this mean that a First Age roleplaying game can't be faithful to the source, or that Noldor would need lots of mechanics to make playing them a pain and keep them "on the level" with Edain? However, the story also didn't feature lengthy asides about how, "Ah, but if Beren had had the blood of the Firstborn, or had seen the light of the Two Trees, he totally could have scored at least one more Silmaril before Morgoth woke up."
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Oct 10, 2014 01:26
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Nessus posted:However, the story also didn't feature lengthy asides about how, "Ah, but if Beren had had the blood of the Firstborn, or had seen the light of the Two Trees, he totally could have scored at least one more Silmaril before Morgoth woke up." Which stories do, motherfucker? Who actually writes these passages or plays these games? Where is it?! Who said this?! Show me!!!
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Oct 10, 2014 01:27
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Nessus posted:Beren actually kicked the poo poo out of a couple of Noldor with his dog friend, sir Do you really think that Ferrinus is suggesting that every time someone who isn't a Solar does something a little fairy pops up and tells them that a Solar could have done it better? Not to mention that having an angel/demigod in dog-shape save him isn't exactly the message you're shooting for...
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Oct 10, 2014 01:30
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Ferrinus posted:Which stories do, motherfucker? Who actually writes these passages or plays these games? Where is it?! Who said this?! Show me!!! Ferrinus posted:But they do. Those abilities do allow them to achieve good results - good results simply inferior to those achievable by Solars, Abyssals, or Infernals. Effectronica posted:Do you really think that Ferrinus is suggesting that every time someone who isn't a Solar does something a little fairy pops up and tells them that a Solar could have done it better?
Nessus fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 01:32
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Nessus posted:I suppose if your point is that it's not usually a major aside in those things, that's true, but I already said about twenty times that part of this is 'concern over protecting the Solar niche you are arguing for loving up the Charm design for Lunars/Sidereals/Garanimals/whatever', which I gather actually, like, happened in 2E for Lunars. 2E Lunars were hosed up because no one writing them knew what they were supposed to be. If there wasn't a top-down mandate to make them weaker than Solars, you'd have gotten the same bland bullshit except the SSE equivalent would cost 3m instead of 4m. "Silver Solars" is just as bad as "Silver Solars but 5% less efficient". At least the latter was a little truer to the setting.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:34
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Ferrinus posted:Actually, it is. You are fundamentally confused. You have "power" confused with "protagonism". You think that you aren't the protagonist unless you're also the most powerful. But that's not how it works. Frequently, the protagonist of a story is among the least powerful or established of its characters. quote:This is a pure hypothetical because it might end up getting set up entirely differently, but maybe the Solar at their peak is more powerful than the Lunar at their peak, but the Solar's peak is more short-lived/costly to access and the Lunar's much more capable of absorbing attrition and bad luck. A Solar can fight twenty men without even getting scratched, but she's winded afterwards. A Lunar does it much more sloppily and even more slowly, but didn't need to spend Essence to do it and can just chill for fifteen minutes while their wounds get healing factor'd away. Is that actually a salient rather than an incidental difference? And if it is, is it one that should actually be allowed to exist under your design paradigm? Because that sounds like the sort of efficiency difference that could lead to a Celestial trumping a Solar in some area of activity. edit: Ferrinus posted:2E Lunars were hosed up because no one writing them knew what they were supposed to be. If there wasn't a top-down mandate to make them weaker than Solars, you'd have gotten the same bland bullshit except the SSE equivalent would cost 3m instead of 4m. "Silver Solars" is just as bad as "Silver Solars but 5% less efficient". At least the latter was a little truer to the setting. LGD fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 01:37
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LGD posted:Ah, just as the protagonist of a D&D party is really the humble Fighter. A story and a roleplaying game function differently, and I'm clearly talking about narrative control, something in-game power has a strong correlation to. A D&D party doesn't have a protagonist. I'm increasingly convinced that you don't know what a protagonist is. You just heard somewhere that it was good, so bad things must lack one. quote:Is that actually a salient rather than an incidental difference? And if it is, is it one that should actually be allowed to exist under your design paradigm? Because that sounds like the sort of efficiency difference that could lead to a Celestial trumping a Solar in some area of activity. If I had to represent the difference between supernaturally potent combat flowing from skill and grit and supernaturally potent combat flowing from monstrous power, I'd do it by making the former swingy, inconsistent, but but capable of prodigious peaks when the fighter in question cashes in their daily power/healing surges/whatever, while I'd make the latter's resting level much higher and pepper the latter with a lot of always-on perks that allow it to ignore problems generally associated with combat. But that's just me, I'm not actually designing these things and I don't want to (except for the character creation math, because that's clearly not going to get done any other way). You could make one of these subtly or even obviously better than the other by just massaging the math, but even if you did you'd have situations in which one or the other was more appropriate as long as you didn't betray the basic premises. quote:25% less efficient, and it's still unclear how this top-down mandate isn't going to interfere with Lunar design going forward. Maybe they're really inspired now and have a bunch of cool ideas! Do you think that a directive of "Cannot exceed what a Solar can do EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" makes it more or less likely that they'll end up with good mechanics? How will that directive play out for Sidereals and down the whole line? Other Lunar Charms were actually exactly identical to Solar Charms in 2E and a couple were even more powerful for cost. I don't know what actual figure I'd assign. I only quote you here to take issue with "EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES", which you of course made up. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 01:44
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Ferrinus posted:A D&D party doesn't have a protagonist. quote:If I had to represent the difference between supernaturally potent combat flowing from skill and grit as opposed to supernaturally potent combat flowing from monstrous power, I'd do it by making the former swingy, inconsistent, but but capable of prodigious peaks when the fighter in question cashes in their daily power/healing surges/whatever, while I'd make the latter's resting level much higher and pepper the latter with a lot of always-on perks that allow it to ignore problems generally associated with combat. But that's just me, I'm not actually designing these things and I don't want to (except for the character creation math, because that's clearly not going to get done any other way). edit: Ferrinus posted:Other Lunar Charms were actually exactly identical to Solar Charms in 2E and a couple were even more powerful for cost. I don't know what actual figure I'd assign. I only quote you here to take issue with "EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES", which you of course made up. LGD fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 01:54
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