|
Cerebral Bore posted:The one where Clinton and Obama didn't set out to butcher hundreds of thousands of people in southeast asia because of some harebrained scheme? Also, Johnson was an opportunistic hard-right rear end in a top hat during his time in the Senate. He was the president who brought in civil rights, but the senate leader who's estimated to have set them back by almost a decade.
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 07:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:08 |
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Also, Johnson was an opportunistic hard-right rear end in a top hat during his time in the Senate. He was the president who brought in civil rights, but the senate leader who's estimated to have set them back by almost a decade. Sounds like a good reason to talk him up more, if he can change his stance that radically. The dude ably served when his country was on the brink of a meltdown. I hesitate to say revolution, because it probably would have been without organization or general purpose outside of "gently caress the system" like most things the boomers have left us.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 13:38
|
|
|
MODS CURE JOKES posted:Sounds like a good reason to talk him up more, if he can change his stance that radically. The dude ably served when his country was on the brink of a meltdown. I hesitate to say revolution, because it probably would have been without organization or general purpose outside of "gently caress the system" like most things the boomers have left us. Unfortunately, it wasn't really a road-to-Damascus thing. It was more that he was a total career-minded opportunist. In the senate, that meant sucking up to old, racist Democrats. As president, it meant broadly populist policies that weren't necessarily very well thought through. On the plus side, that meant civil rights and the Big Society. On the minus side, it meant the colossally dumb attempt to rally the public around the flag that was Vietnam and a whole lot of slipshod legislation that looked good more than it did good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 13:48
|
|
|
Lyndon B. Johnson was the Frank Underwood that Frank Underwood wished he was, basically.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 17:50
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Jean-Marie Le Pen did say a lot of poo poo like that. It was his specialty. He was sued several times for that, and became an expert at weaseling things away with the "technically, what I said was..." and "in context, ..." kind of excuses. (If he said that the Germans did nothing inhumane in France in WW2, then it follows that everything inhumane that happened then was the French's own fault. Kind of a backfire here, Jean-Marie.) It's a wonder to me that le Pen is allowed to say anything at all without someone shoving an apple in his mouth and telling him to squeal more. The man still has the knife he used to cut on other human beings in Algeria. He thinks its a souvenir.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 20:43
|
|
|
MODS CURE JOKES posted:Sounds like a good reason to talk him up more, if he can change his stance that radically. The dude ably served when his country was on the brink of a meltdown. I hesitate to say revolution, because it probably would have been without organization or general purpose outside of "gently caress the system" like most things the boomers have left us. We were talking about his alignment, not his ability.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 01:40
|
|
|
Bumping this thread with an update from Sweden who had our general election(as well as regionals and municipal elections) this sunday. Fascist Swedish Democrats got 13% of the vote in the general election, making them the third largest party. With the chaos that's the current parliament(no bloc have enough support to form a stable goverment) they're bound to grow by next election, either in 2018 or if an emergency election is called. In slightly brighter news, the nazi party(Party of the Swedes/Svenskarnas Parti/SVP) gained no seats in any of the municipalities they ran in and by their own accords they had a pretty catastrophic election so at least that's that. Still, we're on a fast car speeding towards a cliff right now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2014 16:51
|
|
|
Also, nazi goons attacked several voting places. Things are really heating up. On the plus side, the other Swedish parties seem to refuse parliamentary cooperation with the fascists (ironically leading to every Danish pundit screaming about undemocratic Sweden).
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 20:27
|
|
|
Oh, the things you can learn by being polite and asking questions... Dveri might up to something nasty for the upcoming football game between Serbia and Albania. One of their local branches was given money by the HQ in Belgrade to organize and send a number of their members to the game, and the context leads me to believe that something similar is being done in their other branches. I can only hope that this is just something along the lines of, like, their annual slur-shouting day gathering instead of something more violent. Dveri have been somewhat annoyed in the last month, to say the least. Belgrade Pride happened mostly without incident (well, the prime minister's brother got beaten up by a group of cops angry at the PM, and B92 TV's building was attacked by 30-ish rioters, resulting in injuries of 2 policemen, but the parade itself wasn't in danger at any point), the counter-parade (Family March, for ARE FAMILIES!!!) held by Dveri later that day was poorly attended and wasn't banned or harassed (which means they were denied the chance to blame the government for suppressing true Serbian families in favor of those satanic faggots), and our country was praised by a EU report for the rapid reforms we're undergoing (Dveri violently oppose joining EU). The funny thing is, I agree with them about not liking the current government. Of course, for very, very different reasons. For those guys, the PM's attitude "As far as I'm personally concerned, those fags can gently caress off forever, but as the government, we can't let anyone harass them" (said in a bit more PC way, of course) is waaaay too lefty. An incident that shows Serbia in a negative spotlight might be just what they need. The backlash against Serbia would cause anti-EU sentiment (for reasons I can understand all too well - sometimes I get the impression that's the only kind of spotlight we get, no matter what we do) and some other issues which would give Dveri a chance to swell their ranks and promote their ideas more. I'm really curious about the identity of their financial backers, but I'm quite unlikely to find that out on my own. Oh, well... Them's the brakes. How's the North doing? Any new developments?
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
Still loving ashamed that we let some neo-nazis run around the country killing immigrants, while our law enforcement agencies thought it was some kind of gang/mafia violence. Also, radical Muslims are now pretty much stealing the spotlight from all other radical groups.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2014 19:07
|
|
|
I realize to most of you, the arming of the police with glocks and MP5s isn't anything big, but our government has just done so in secret when they don't have enough money to try and keep the welfare system from toppling. If our only good Icelandic newspaper hadn't revealed the story the first we'd have heard about it probs when one of the meatheads would be shooting someone for being uppity or something. Icelandic police has never been armed before and has no need for it either. A guy with a hunting rifle every few years does not justify getting hundreds of guns and honestly it's just another symptom of how Iceland has rapidly turned to utter poo poo after the election of our right-wing party again. Sometimes I can't describe in words how much I hate my countrymen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 13:20
|
|
|
Deceitful Penguin posted:I realize to most of you, the arming of the police with glocks and MP5s isn't anything big, but our government has just done so in secret when they don't have enough money to try and keep the welfare system from toppling. If our only good Icelandic newspaper hadn't revealed the story the first we'd have heard about it probs when one of the meatheads would be shooting someone for being uppity or something. What, why? What the poo poo happened? After the global recession, iceland was kinda seen as the country that did the right thing and put its bankers in their place. I didn't think you even had an 'other' to make your boogeyman.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 14:15
|
|
|
Berke Negri posted:Lyndon B. Johnson was the Frank Underwood that Frank Underwood wished he was, basically. You might say that, but I couldn't possibly comment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 14:43
|
|
|
paranoid randroid posted:It's a wonder to me that le Pen is allowed to say anything at all without someone shoving an apple in his mouth and telling him to squeal more. The man still has the knife he used to cut on other human beings in Algeria. He thinks its a souvenir. French politics are rabid about rights (justified) and really don't like arabs (nnnnot so much). It was a huge embarrassment when Le Pen made the runoff, though, so at least they're self-aware. Now, why he hasn't been turned over to authorities for murder/war crimes, I don't know. Actually I do, it's because they didn't care about Algerians during those times 
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 17:34
|
|
|
Chokes McGee posted:French politics are rabid about rights (justified) and really don't like arabs (nnnnot so much). It was a huge embarrassment when Le Pen made the runoff, though, so at least they're self-aware. Well something else is going on in France, Marine seems to be more popular than her father was and if anything it is a two-horse race between her and whomever the UMP puts up. Talking to French friends, it seems there is even more of a stark divide than ever and between the ineffectual policy of Hollande and a racial divide, no one is really happy with the way things are going either socially, economically or politically. It is pretty sad too to me because if anything part of me as always seen France as a model but lately a lot of things have been sliding overboard.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
Kristov posted:What, why? What the poo poo happened? After the global recession, iceland was kinda seen as the country that did the right thing and put its bankers in their place. I didn't think you even had an 'other' to make your boogeyman. And yes, the government is now arming the police force with handguns and submachine guns. Or rather, allowing the police force to arm itself. It's justified with scare tactics, like talk about ‘foreign criminal gangs’ which apparently have machine guns or somesuch, and also stories about violent crimes and shooting sprees which somehow were not reported on and have no files on them that can be presented as evidence. The police shot a man last winter. He was the first man to die by the hands of the Icelandic police, and it turned into a national tragedy and opened up a lot of discussion about mental illness and police competence. This, at least, has not been forgotten by the people, who are meeting tomorrow to protest with squirt guns.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 18:25
|
|
|
Does "Progressive" have a much different meaning in some Nordic countries? I think the junior coalition partner in Norway's government is rendered "Progressive Party" in English.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 19:15
|
|
|
socilest butthomo posted:The bankers were never touched; that's a lie. A somewhat-left leaning coalition government was in charge between 2009–13 but because they couldn't fix the country completely in four years, the right wing blamed them for making the mess in the first place and managed to turn the public opinion against them. Then we elected the nationalist nutjobs of the Progressive Party into power, which set up a coalition government with the Independent Party (Christian conservatives) and proceeded to gut literally every positive thing Iceland ever had to cover their tax cuts on the rich. It's actually pretty alarming how much more aggressive and cavalier they are about their attacks on the welfare and healthcare systems, much more so than before. I guess it shows the danger of when economic cycles don't have the same short memory of political cycles, the Progressive Party seemed to have a big part in creating the crisis in the first place. How much has Iceland changed social systems have changed since 2009 or so? It is a bit terrifying that Iceland is so quickly adopting a far more modern American system of policing. I think of Iceland I don't really think of a country being on the brink of chaos because of crime.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 19:31
|
|
|
Jerry Manderbilt posted:Does "Progressive" have a much different meaning in some Nordic countries? I think the junior coalition partner in Norway's government is rendered "Progressive Party" in English.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 19:37
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Well something else is going on in France, Marine seems to be more popular than her father was and if anything it is a two-horse race between her and whomever the UMP puts up. The French model is dying and there is no cure. Short of France either leaving the EU entirely, or somehow taking over it and forcing it to radically change its policies. The French model is based on a strong, centralized state. Yes, to American ears, this is tyranny and communism because government == bad. But French society, classically, saw the state as the guarantor and protector of the citizens. This is even older than the French Republic: historically, French kings have always been enemies of French nobility, and this has often (but of course not always, cf. absolute monarchy) been rather advantageous to commoners. Anyway, the French Republican model was: - Interventionism in the economy, with regulated prices for necessary goods and services - Investments of the state in developing and modernizing the country, e.g. Minitel terminals were property of the state made available for free (at the time, they were rather expensive pieces of equipment) - Equality of services meaning that public services such as hospitals, schools, railroads, postal and phone services, etc. had quality as their primary mission, not profitability. So small towns with little traffic still had regular train service, instead of keeping only the Paris-Lyon-Marseilles line. - Centralization of budget, so rich regions paid for poor regions - Sovereignty, all the above is acceptable because it corresponds to the will of the People, and if the government stops representing the will of the People, you know, we've got these guillotines... Now comes Europe. Europe comes with a few mandatory reforms: - Decentralization. Let rich regions be rich, and poor regions be poor - Liberalize every single thing, prices should only be regulated by speculators and oligopolies - Competition is god, private sector is god, abolish all public service, privatize everything - Money is not a servant but a master, the central bank is to be independent and its mandate should focus only on making banks and investors happy - States should lose their power from the top by transferring sovereignty to the Commission, and from the bottom by relinquishing power to regions So the French model was quickly, systematically destroyed. "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" has never been as far from the decision makers' considerations as it is today. And Europe is in large part responsible for this, as a cause or at least as a pretext for politicians to go along with. Then when you add that Hollande was elected by people who were tired of austerity policies doing more harm than good, people being tired of the corruption under Chirac and Sarkozy's right-wing governments, and people who heard Hollande claim that "the finance lobby is my enemy", and they get a President Hollande whose ministers hide money in Switzerland or forget to pay their taxes altogether, left-wing ministers who get fired when they criticize austerity policies, and being replaced by bankers, well... It's easy to understand why Marine Le Pen's claim that she is the only political alternative because UMP and PS are the exact same thing is something that seduces more and more people. (The tragedy being, of course, that the FN's policies are decidedly right-wing and would go in the same direction of austerity, appeasement of the finance lobby, and fostering ever growing inequalities.) Hollande's ratings are disastrous because he's pursuing the other side's policies.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 21:31
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:The French model is dying and there is no cure. Short of France either leaving the EU entirely, or somehow taking over it and forcing it to radically change its policies. Ultimately, it is a pretty similar story across the developed world, but it may have hit much harder in France because of the stability that the social systems offered the population. It is one of the reasons some Americans secretly like the French way of doing things better than their own, it seems or at least seemed more humane. All the way back when Hollande got nominated, I had a feeling more or less this would happen, he just seemed like such a middle of the road third-way technocrat when France needed so much more. Looking at the polls, I may have overestimated him. Le Pen's success is much greater than I feared, and I understand the mechanics of her politics. I never thought FN would go as mainstream as it has. Her Dad got 17% in 2002, which back then was a real wake up call but still manageable. Right now Marine is polling 28-30% in the first round, and a bit higher in the second round. It is a real reach for her to ever reach the presidency, obviously since she isn't going to pick up much in the second round, but FN is certainly going to shape the debate. Then there is the issue of race, and I think it is getting pretty serious. I mean I have heard things from friends, I wouldn't have expected them to say only a few years ago and I do get a sense of, if anything, real bitterness. Unfortunately, I don't think a lovely economy, austerity and radicalism on all sides is going to be mending many bridges. Ultimately, I don't think assimilation really working at the moment, and it probably doesn't help France is country with a strong national/ethnic culture. Obviously, France isn't alone looking much of the rest of Europe, but I really don't see a easy fix or even much of a fix period.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 22:09
|
|
|
Kristov posted:I didn't think you even had an 'other' to make your boogeyman.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 19:25
|
|
|
Jerry Manderbilt posted:Does "Progressive" have a much different meaning in some Nordic countries? I think the junior coalition partner in Norway's government is rendered "Progressive Party" in English. "Progress party", really, and the discourse isn't really framed in terms of "Progressiveness". Leftists call themselves socialist up here. Note that they changed their name after the party founder died. They used to be called "Anders Lange's Party for Strong Reduction in Taxes, Fees and State Intervention", which was a bit of a mouthful.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 19:07
|
|
|
In the meanwhile in Shitland Passos indicates that 2012 will be the economic turnaround year Passos anticipates economic turnaround this year [2013] Passos says 2014 will the turnaround year for the Portuguese economy Passos says 2015 will the turnaround moment But not everything is bad news, it seems that the program of forcing hundreds of thousands of people to flee the country is finally working and unemployment is down. If we are lucky Ebola should bring those numbers even lower ~next year~. Our good fortune is that our fascists are morons and can't help themselves but tout old geezer Salazar as a hero. Combine a population with a strong messianic tradition with a USELESS democracy and the fact that the dictatorship is nothing but stories for everyone younger than 45 and when the fascists get someone with charisma this country will turn so fast it will make your head spin.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 13:00
|
|
|
Hmm yes the country whose communist party is the third biggest party ,not to mention the assorted left wing and centrist-with-left-wing-facade parties that roam around, will turn to the hard right in a jiffy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
Mans posted:Hmm yes the country whose communist party is the third biggest party ,not to mention the assorted left wing and centrist-with-left-wing-facade parties that roam around, will turn to the hard right in a jiffy. Yeah smugly asserting that 'It's Not Possible Here' is definitely the best antifascist strategy!
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 18:14
|
|
|
Mans posted:Hmm yes the country whose communist party is the third biggest party ,not to mention the assorted left wing and centrist-with-left-wing-facade parties that roam around, will turn to the hard right in a jiffy. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 18:27
|
|
|
You clearly don't understand just how much of a failure you have to turn to the right of CDS in Portugal. You have to be impressively stupid, and impressively frustrated.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 18:44
|
|
|
I'll toxx myself and say that i will record myself eating the entire communist manifesto if a party to the right of CDS ever gets a single member into parliament.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 18:47
|
|
|
It's going to require a miracle for a fascist party to return in style in Portugal, not so much because of communists, but more that fascism requires some degree of pride for your country, of which there is none left in modern Portugal. Like I said in the chat thread, the "biggest" fascist party came out behind the monarchists and the maiosts in the last euro elections, with a stunning 1.45%. Our fascists don't even know how to channel euroskepticism.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 18:58
|
|
|
Mans posted:I'll toxx myself and say that i will record myself eating the entire communist manifesto if a party to the right of CDS ever gets a single member into parliament. What if the CDS turns authoritarian?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 19:08
|
|
|
Mans posted:Hmm yes the country whose communist party is the third biggest party ,not to mention the assorted left wing and centrist-with-left-wing-facade parties that roam around, will turn to the hard right in a jiffy. Mans posted:I'll toxx myself and say that i will record myself eating the entire communist manifesto if a party to the right of CDS ever gets a single member into parliament. And I counter toxx myself and will eat the entire communist manifesto and Mao's little red book for dessert that if\when people eventually get fed up with this poo poo we won't get a communist dictatorship but a neo-fascist one and I say this as someone that's voting CDU in the next elections. Outside of a core of maybe 20% seriously left wing people that might support a leftwing revolution, the rest, those that abstain, those that "don't care about politics because they are all the same" if\when poo poo hits the fan and we start getting a whiff of 1st Republic chaos they'll much sooner flock to a well groomed gentleman that will assure them that he can bring peace, order and prosperity back. It's not like that wasn't precisely what we did in the 30s. That democracy in Portugal is a sham is something people already internalized, what they don't see yet is an alternative. That they don't don't consider the communists an alternative to the current regime is self evident. Either the current farce will prolong itself indefinitely which I don't believe or sooner or later some people will get fed up and left wing political violence will enter the table. When that happens the backlash to the right by everyone not already firmly on the left will be hard and swift. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 19:32
|
|
|
Antwan3K posted:What if the CDS turns authoritarian? But nothing more authoritarian on the right will emerge. There's way too many people thinking that the communists should've fought back in 1975 and are hoping for a second round. Neoliberal capitalism is an extremely effective way of creating massive gaps between the value of labor and capital and destroying the social state, there's no need for something more authoritarian. MeLKoR posted:And I counter toxx myself and will eat the entire communist manifesto and Mao's little red book for dessert that if\when people eventually get fed up with this poo poo we won't get a communist dictatorship but a neo-fascist one and I say this as someone that's voting CDU in the next elections. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
Electronico6 posted:It's going to require a miracle for a fascist party to return in style in Portugal, not so much because of communists, but more that fascism requires some degree of pride for your country, of which there is none left in modern Portugal. That's a weird position considering that one of fascism's primary rhetorical/recruiting points is the restoration of a national pride denied to the nation's masses.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 13:24
|
|
|
Germany probably won't openly back a Fascist party but as we saw with Greece last election, Merkel et al aren't apathetic and will put a tremendous amount of effort in to preventing left wing partirs gaining power. With the left unable to deliver for angry people a Fascist party that maybe isn't endorsed but is tolerated will be a major beneficiary. Capitalist elites don't like fascism but they take it over left wing parties every time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 14:20
|
|
|
Man, remember when the Jorg Haider and his FPÖ won in Austria and all of Europe was getting in a fuss over it? There were sanctions and stuff. Do you think this could happen again? The EU making a fuss, I mean.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 15:07
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Man, remember when the Jorg Haider and his FPÖ won in Austria and all of Europe was getting in a fuss over it? There were sanctions and stuff. Hungary held the president title when Jobbik became the second largest party so take your guess. Not to mention FNs results in May.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:That's a weird position considering that one of fascism's primary rhetorical/recruiting points is the restoration of a national pride denied to the nation's masses. Portugal is a fake country, Germany/France/UK are real countries and Portugal will never be like those countries; is very much a thing people believe and swear by. You can't restore what isn't there, nor even appeal to a fantasy that most simply don't believe. The crisis didn't bring the house down like in Greece, but it did one thing. It shattered the idea that Portugal was a prosperous country with a future, and in a country with a culture of fatalism, where even looking to the past hurts, and a massive inferiority complex, you end up with a population that today finds very little to believe about it's own country. So they end up resigning to their fate and just carry on the best they can, or simply leave.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
Electronico6 posted:Portugal is a fake country, Germany/France/UK are real countries and Portugal will never be like those countries; is very much a thing people believe and swear by. You can't restore what isn't there, nor even appeal to a fantasy that most simply don't believe. You are Portuguese I suppose? I'd like to hear more about the fake country / no national pride stuff, providing you're not simply being cynical. How is Portugal any faker than (for instance) Denmark or Slovakia?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 16:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:08 |
|
|
Rutkowski posted:Hungary held the president title when Jobbik became the second largest party so take your guess. To add to this the ruling party is Hungary, Fidesz, are pretty openly authoritarian at this point and nobody really seems to give a poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 16:26
|
|
