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My point--without getting into pedantic D&D squabbles--is that most people don't care arbitrarily assigned numbers of stupid poo poo, but Chinese people do. See also: wear your thick winter coat until it is officially spring regardless of the outside temperature.
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Oct 10, 2014 19:50
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systran posted:My point--without getting into pedantic D&D squabbles--is that most people don't care arbitrarily assigned numbers of stupid poo poo, but Chinese people do. Your example doesn't even support your theory that generalize Chinese.
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Oct 10, 2014 19:59
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I've been glued to this thread lately for Hong Kong updates. To what degree are the protests still going?
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Oct 10, 2014 20:04
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Ditocoaf posted:I've been glued to this thread lately for Hong Kong updates. To what degree are the protests still going? Well I don't know about that BUT HOW ABOUT WE TALK MORE ABOUT WHAT CHINESE PEOPLE DO AHHH YEAHHH mainlanders drive like thiisss
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Oct 10, 2014 20:19
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please dont fight everyone im sorry lets just talk about why cao cao is the coolest guy in the three kingdoms novel
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Oct 10, 2014 21:03
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A few Western news outlets are saying that the HK government calling off talks with the protesters has, surprise surprise, caused the numbers of protesters to increase. edit: Zhang Fengyi is the best Cao Cao. Tom Smykowski fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 21:06
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Protests still strong, huge crowd in Admiralty but the rally was peaceful so not much to report in media, I would imagine. However, many people heeded the call for one person, one tent and now a lot of tents are set up on the Admiralty site. Still lots of people sleeping on tarmac, and given the warm temperatures I wouldn't blame them.
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Oct 10, 2014 21:11
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Ceciltron posted:Countries grounded in a Confucian system of learning: 1. China 2. Japan 3. South Korea 4. Taiwan fart simpson posted:Maybe you should ask questions if you don't know stuff instead of asserting your ignorance as ironic fact?
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Oct 10, 2014 23:37
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Looks like the racist expat brigade is now back after the HK thing has moved out of the spotlight in favor of more EBOLA
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Oct 10, 2014 23:54
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:1. China Not Japan, Japan is her own civilization. However China and India civilizations both influrenced the Indochina area . So the country that's closer to China in this area do count. Vietnam is pretty much in the same culture sphere. Maybe Laos too but I don't know anything about Laos. I used to use the term "Confucianism Culture" but Sinic Culture is a more appropriated name. That includes Sinified Buddhism, "have sex with virgins without cumming to gain immortality" Taoists. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 00:09
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whatever7 posted:Not Japan, Japan is her own civilization. Japan has an incredibly Confucian society and he's still actively revered there.
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Oct 11, 2014 00:20
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whatever7 posted:Not Japan, Japan is her own civilization. Do Asians actually think Korea, Japan, and China are totally different? Like is that really a thing? I can understand hating each other, sure, but that level of lack of self awareness? Is this another case of Chinese high school social studies saying Japan was not influenced by China, Vietnam was, and Korea I guess doesn't really exist or were conquering France and America at the time, so therefore that's how it is? icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 00:23
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icantfindaname posted:Do Asians actually think Korea, Japan, and China are totally different? Like is that really a thing? I can understand hating each other, sure, but that level of lack of self awareness? Are you surprised that people close to each other will notice the differences between themselves more than people looking from the outside
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Oct 11, 2014 00:29
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icantfindaname posted:Do Asians actually think Korea, Japan, and China are totally different? Like is that really a thing? I can understand hating each other, sure, but that level of lack of self awareness? Is this another case of Chinese high school social studies saying Japan was not influenced by China, Vietnam was, and Korea I guess doesn't really exist or were conquering France and America at the time, so therefore that's how it is? Like how different Canada is from the US. The US covers its fries in cheese and gravy. Canada? Poutine and gravy. Completely different.
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Oct 11, 2014 00:50
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icantfindaname posted:Do Asians actually think Korea, Japan, and China are totally different? Like is that really a thing? I can understand hating each other, sure, but that level of lack of self awareness? Is this another case of Chinese high school social studies saying Japan was not influenced by China, Vietnam was, and Korea I guess doesn't really exist or were conquering France and America at the time, so therefore that's how it is? Both Japan and Persia have cultures thats distinctly enough to get their own civilizations. At least for geopolitic discussion. Japan being her own civilization is really not the view point of Chinese scholars. I pick it up because I think it make sense.
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Oct 11, 2014 00:53
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:The US covers its fries in cheese and gravy. Uh I don't where you've been in the US 
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Oct 11, 2014 00:58
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I'm guessing Wisconsin lol
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Oct 11, 2014 00:59
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whatever7 posted:Both Japan and Persia have cultures thats distinctly enough to get their own civilizations. At least for geopolitic discussion. Well, Persia had its own longstanding culture, religion and literary tradition before being converting to Islam, Japan really didn't have much except pirates before aping China. I don't think current geopolitical power is a good factor to consider when comparing cultures. Korea has basically the same relationship with China that Japan does culturally, but Korea has been politically marginalized for most of the 20th Century. I don't know much about Vietnam/SE Asia, are they more Chinese somehow? goldboilermark posted:I'm guessing Wisconsin lol heh icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 01:04
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:The US covers its fries in cheese and gravy. Canada? Poutine and gravy. Completely different. What? icantfindaname posted:Japan really didn't have much except pirates before aping China. The pirates came almost a thousand years after they started aping China.
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Oct 11, 2014 01:20
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The US is the original melting pot there are too many ethnic minorities to count.
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Oct 11, 2014 01:24
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icantfindaname posted:Well, Persia had its own longstanding culture, religion and literary tradition before being converting to Islam, Japan really didn't have much except pirates before aping China. icantfindaname posted:Korea has basically the same relationship with China that Japan does culturally These claims are both pretty much nonsense i.m.o. Like Japan was (despite pretensions) really not a hugely Confucian society historically, for one the samurai class and the Shogunate as an institution are pretty much anathema to Confucian sensibility and there was always a great deal of tension between their adoption of Confucian discourse in high politics and the reality on the ground. Korea went through a sort-of-similar period of military domination earlier on in the Goryeo period but under the Joseon warriors as an independent force were neutered and subsumed into a unified civilian aristocracy and society in general was transformed on pretty thoroughly Confucian lines to the point that they were out-Confucian-ing the Chinese themselves. Japan had its own independent tradition of political philosophy, its own strong religious traditions, etc. etc. Korea was much more under the sway of Chinese culture, though even then most historians of Korea nowadays would reject pretty forcefully the idea that Korea was just a submissive recipient of Chinese culture transmitting it on to Japan (which was the accepted view 50 years ago) I think 'civilisations' are a fairly poo poo unit of historical analysis anyway though so whatever
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Oct 11, 2014 01:38
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whatever7 posted:Both Japan and Persia have cultures thats distinctly enough to get their own civilizations. At least for geopolitic discussion. What the heck does this even mean
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Oct 11, 2014 01:56
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Zohar posted:I think 'civilisations' are a fairly poo poo unit of historical analysis anyway though so whatever Well yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say. I won't claim to be some kind of authority on history here, just that a statement like "Vietnam is an outgrowth of Chinese Civilization but Japan is Different" is probably bullshit
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Oct 11, 2014 01:58
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Big surprise, the anime avatar goon doesn't understand when someone says Japan is weird.
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Oct 11, 2014 02:00
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icantfindaname posted:"Vietnam is an outgrowth of Chinese Civilization
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Oct 11, 2014 02:00
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icantfindaname posted:Well yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say. I won't claim to be some kind of authority on history here, just that a statement like "Vietnam is an outgrowth of Chinese Civilization but Japan is Different" is probably bullshit Yeah I was just worried you were going down the opposite route and doing the 'East Asia is all one homogeneous ~civilisation~' route which some people do and is annoying (and orientalist) as well. I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about Chinese civilisation or Japan's place within Chinese civilisation or Japanese civilisation or whatever, it just gets dodgy when the concept becomes reified and people start being pedantic about whether something is its own civilisation or not, what civilisation a place belongs to, etc, as if those were at all meaningful things to debate in the first place.
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Oct 11, 2014 02:01
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I think in this context there's something wrong with it. I think it's kinda weird to talk about China's place within Chinese civilization. fart simpson posted:Big surprise, the anime avatar goon doesn't understand when someone says Japan is weird. thank you
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Oct 11, 2014 02:20
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icantfindaname posted:Well, Persia had its own longstanding culture, religion and literary tradition before being converting to Islam, Japan really didn't have much except pirates before aping China. I don't think current geopolitical power is a good factor to consider when comparing cultures. Korea has basically the same relationship with China that Japan does culturally, but Korea has been politically marginalized for most of the 20th Century. I don't know much about Vietnam/SE Asia, are they more Chinese somehow? Japanese the language first of all, has a grammar that's complete different from the mainland languages. The Chinese and English parts are the later bolt-on parts of the language, which made Japanese the most complicated language in the world. Secondly, Japan has kept its own religion. And Japan has had minimal Confucianism influence. That was no examination system. Examination system is the most distinctly part of Confucianism. Without it you can't claim it was a Confucian culture. And the political system is completely different. The emperors had no power, it was and still is just a political symbol. Chinese emperors had actual power, therefore could screw up and got over thrown. Japanese emperor didn't get over thrown, therefore mandate of heaven was never part of the political social contract. Again, huge part of a Confucianism ideology. Lastly, Japan had Samurai warrior class. China never had a separated military class. Confucian believe the army should be led by the literati. And the China's literati class was not hereditary. Japan's warrior class and feudal warlords made it similar to the European Middle Age. That fits Japan's feudal society and hilly geography. China's dynasties were much more centralized with huge bureaucratic state machines. The more you look at it, the less similarity Japan has with the continental culture. The only big thing was Zen/Chan Buddhism. Koramei posted:What the heck does this even mean You should yell louder, I can't hear you. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 02:25
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whatever7 posted:Japanese the language first of all, has a grammar that's complete different from the mainland languages. The Chinese and English parts are the later bolt-on parts of the language, which made Japanese the most complicated language in the world. quote:Secondly, Japan has kept its own religion. And Japan has had minimal Confucianism influence. That was no examination system. Examination system is the most distinctly part of Confucianism. Without it you can't claim it was a Confucian culture. quote:And the political system is completely different. The emperors had no power, it was and still is just a political symbol. Chinese emperors had actual power, therefore could screw up and got over thrown. Japanese emperor didn't get over thrown, therefore mandate of heaven was never part of the political social contact. Again, huge part of a Confucianism ideology. quote:Lastly, Japan had Samurai warrior class. China never had a separated military class. And the China's literati class was not hereditary. Japan's warrior class and feudal warlords made it similar to the European Middle Age. That fits Japan's feudal society and hilly geography. China's dynasties were much more centralized with huge bureaucratic state machines.
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Oct 11, 2014 02:39
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All of you guys are getting a little out of your wheelchairs with this amateur historian thing. Whatever7 some of your indivisible aspects of Confucian culture predate Confucius by hundreds of years much less state Confucianism. The mandate of heaven is like 500 years before Confucius at least, while the imperial examination system is 200 years after Confucius and more or less abandoned by the 2nd century AD. Unless you want to argue that China circa 220 BC or 160 AD is not Chinese I'd relax those requirements. That doesn't even approach the question of syncretism within Confucianism or the outright appropriation of Confucius by people he would have considered political opponents or the central role of those two phenomenons in the establishment of state Confucianism. I mean if Qin can set up stone slabs proclaiming that they are the great sage kings (shamelessly appropriating Confucius) and they're the model for everything to come after then surely the Koreans are no more outrageous in doing the same thing. But this slapfight over dividing peoples into civilizations is even dumber because nobody had defined their terms. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 02:56
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fart simpson posted:Big surprise, the anime avatar goon doesn't understand when someone says Japan is weird. This isn't gbs. Please don't reduce cultures to "weird" because anime killed your dog.
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Oct 11, 2014 03:54
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dude every China thread is GBs
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Oct 11, 2014 04:19
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Arglebargle III posted:while the imperial examination system is 200 years after Confucius and more or less abandoned by the 2nd century AD Nitpicking, I know, but this isn't true. The exam system had some hiatuses, but it survived in various forms right up until the Qing dynasty choked its last breath.
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Oct 11, 2014 04:34
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The point is that these definitions for Chinese civilization exclude China for some non-trivial lengths of time. Therefore they are bad definitions. The examination system was re-instituted several times but it's not a good definition for Chinese civilization is the point.
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Oct 11, 2014 05:19
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Someone got really pissed at me the other day. This lady thinks we are blocking everything and ruining Hong Kong. She was frothing mad and wanted to vent. Instead of arguing, I just silently nodded and apologized the inconvenience. "If you guys continue to do what you are doing, I wouldn't be sympathetic when the tanks roll over! The tanks should just come and clean this mess up! That way HK will be stable!" I might not be sleeping in the streets all the time, but I will be there whenever I can, like everyday. Joshua Wong called for tent and blanket donations (I think they needed it day 1) to dig in. I will see if I can get a whole bunch of blankets and tents. PROBABLY IN CHINA!
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Oct 11, 2014 05:29
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Glad to hear another update. Your (and Bloodnose and simplefish and Nombres') posts about the protests are why I'm subscribed to this thread right now. Despite its relative lack of relevance to my life, I've found myself surprisingly emotionally invested in the situation in Hong Kong. I wish you all the best of luck!
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Oct 11, 2014 05:35
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To be honest I haven't been down there too much. Slept out two nights, and went to Causeway Bay another evening. Next week I'm not working so I'll be sure to head down there at least once during the daytime when the numbers dip.
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Oct 11, 2014 05:56
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Each of those countries has decent cooking and that's really the only comparison I care about. How's the protests going, lads? whatever7 posted:"have sex with virgins without cumming to gain immortality" Taoists. The jizz that jizzed is not the true jizz? What the hell kind of Daoism is that?
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Oct 11, 2014 06:02
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_Neo-Confucianism Confucianism became an integral part of Edo period culture. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 06:36
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I'm going to rant. Nobody really cares about SA. The initial founders of OCLP lack convincing leadership. The leadership is hosed. Benny Tai is more of an academic than activist leader. When students were protesting about suddenly closing the civic square in the government building, they got arrested for trying to get in. OCLP didn't say anything. A sudden protest formed outside the government building and Benny Tai not only said OCLP won't start but it will stick to the schedule of national day to avoid disruptions. I wish he kept his mouth shut. Worse, he changes his decision within a few hours and commences OCLP on midnight. Yeah, he shouldn't be speaking to the crowd at all. I know he's going through a lot of pressure and jeopardizes his academic career but seriously, shut the gently caress up. Alright, comes September 28, the roads are packed with Federation Student Union and Scholarism and a few bystanders joining and everyone gets tear gassed. I thought that was going to be the end when I walked around the streets early morning but nope was I wrong. Numbers swelled to huge numbers and everyone was volunteering, donating, cheering, and staying together. But then the supply depots are badly organized, I carried water and supplies to and fro without really distributing anything. Everyone is more concerned about their local spot and no one is manning the barriers. There's no shift system and so people just come in whenever. Some stayed for 2 days and get really tired/bored and give up (at least they tried), others moved to Mong Kok and Causeway Bay. OCLP hordes their endless supply of water and don't even want to share resources to "unsanctioned places". Then their medics don't really work well with the other non-affiliated medic stations and won't even send dispatches to OCLP patrol areas when others were calling for help. Worse is the leadership calling people for retreat. I understand Scholarism is mostly full of secondary students so they don't want them to get hurt. OCLP likes to make concessions to the government without even negotiating anything. The only leadership that is taking charge is FSU. They are negotiating hard and calling out government bullshit. It's nice to see Joshua working well with them and denouncing violence instead of telling people to go home like Benny and OCLP. And you don't see the democrat legislative councilors showing up for long. They just come in, tell us how much they are supporting us, make a few cheers, and then leave. This whole movement is basically sustained by bursts of volunteers and FSU maturing and taking charge of leadership. There are other more radical groups like Passion times but they don't have the resources or organization power to muster people. Plus they like to constantly be out there and talk poo poo about OCLP in the open. They only call for "self volunteering, self volunteering" yet there needs to be a overall goal and objective for volunteers to keep everyone motivated. Oh yeah, and they don't even loan their tents, bunch of selfish fucks. That's why Mong Kok is less tidy (granted a lot more foot traffic) and more survivalist than the other places. Anyways, I think that we can hold on to this many days is a freaking miracle, numbers/morale swell up and down but I believe once the tents are set up, number retention should be up for each night. Even if people do go home, tents won't get cleared out. If I give up and the movement fizzles then everyone is hosed. The leaders of this movement will get a bajillion charges, the remaining 15-20 protesters will get arrested and the morale for democracy movement knocked out. There's talk of doing another one during the Christmas long weekend but honestly, I see this one as make it or break it. We have to go home with something, even if it's a compromise. If occupy civil disobedience won't make the government listen, I don't know what will. That's why I'm trying to show up as long as I can. But then there's another scenario. A compromise would probably make lots of people go home because everyone is loving tired, but what will happen to those who won't submit and get a complete victory? Will they get cleared out by the police and arrested as usual like other protest movements or will there by another surge of public coming in? Apple daily (not reliable) insinuates that the Beijing leadership is losing patience. caberham fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 06:42
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