Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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Grizzled Patriarch: Mar 27, 2014; These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.

Liam Emsa posted:

I originally wrote the story when I couldn't think of a city to base it in, so I set it in New York City, US. Some paragraphs relied heavily on this (referring to US politics, laws, etc). As I was writing more and more, I started wanting to create a much different city than New York City, so I did. I gave it a name and I wrote a new introductory paragraph setting the scene for the city. Then I realized that this city did, of course, not exist in the United States. I'd also changed the tone to much darker than I'd written earlier, so my earlier parts didn't make sense. So I had to scan through and rewrite all those earlier parts.

I'm also questioning my basic format for the entire novel. I have two central characters, and I've been going back and forth with each chapter describing how they're going to meet. They're the central protagonist and antagonist of the story. The chapters that are specific to that person are 3rd-person omniscient for that person only (i.e. if they saw the other person before *they* knew them they wouldn't know who they were). I'm wondering if this is going to cause me trouble later.

I've also just sort of run out of ideas of what to do with them. Like, I have the basic arc of the story: The hero and villain are created, they're drawn to each other, and they have to collide at some point, but it's that big middle between that I don't know what to fill it with.

For now, I'd recommend focusing on finishing the broad strokes before getting too stressed out about details and world-building. Ideally, you should be raising the stakes and establishing the context of the conflict leading into whatever confrontation you have planned. What does your protagonist want? What obstacles are in the way, up to and including the main conflict? You want the reader to care why your characters are doing what they do, and giving them challenges to face is how you build characterization. It doesn't have to be non-stop pulse-pounding action, but things need to be happening that move the plot forward while showing the reader how and why your characters react to situations.

If your protag isn't doing anything until they meet the antagonist, that's definitely an issue. It may sound crazy, but have you considered introducing that conflict much earlier? It almost sounds like this meeting between them is going to serve as a catalyst for the bulk of your actual story, so maybe come right out of the gates with it, or find a way to condense things that happen in the interim.

I know potentially gutting everything you've done so far is probably not something you even want to entertain, but it might be worth consideration. If nothing else, you could make a thread and toss up some snippets where you're having trouble to see if having some fresh eyes helps.

# ? Oct 13, 2014 06:52

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# ? May 14, 2024 05:03

Szmitten: Apr 26, 2008

Liam Emsa posted:

The chapters that are specific to that person are 3rd-person omniscient for that person only (i.e. if they saw the other person before *they* knew them they wouldn't know who they were). I'm wondering if this is going to cause me trouble later.

Don't you mean limited? That's kinda not what omniscient means unless you're doing something even weirder which might be tripping you up.

# ? Oct 13, 2014 14:44

Liam Emsa: Aug 21, 2014; Oh, god. I think I'm falling.

Szmitten posted:

Don't you mean limited? That's kinda not what omniscient means unless you're doing something even weirder which might be tripping you up.

You're right, limited. I used the wrong term. Thanks!

# ? Oct 13, 2014 21:54

wigglin: Dec 19, 2007

Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:

For example, I just finished reading American Gods by Neil Gaiman, and the climax happens around page 480 of 520 and even extends a little into the epilogue. Everything that happens after the climax, when you wrap up loose ends and whatnot, should be rather short, because no one wants to read tons of pages of characters finding their place in the world or whatever.

I just finished my first read of American Gods so your post seems like an opportune time to get clarification on some of the structure.

Some of the vignettes that are added in that book, specifically the sequence with the cabby djinn, and the story of the twins sold off into slavery seemed too long and possibly unnecessary. They are inserted into the main plot exactly where I desperately wanted to know what happened next in the story, and they dampened my desire to continue onward. They were fine little stories, but I found the themes presented were sufficiently exposed by characters earlier in the book.

It's to my understanding that you want to break up the action of the main plot with breathing room for the reader, which I think is what these vignettes were meant to accomplish. I just felt like their timing was incorrect or something. Though, I think the side-story with Bilquis was entirely spot-on because we're introduced to the ideas that the gods need to feed upon mortals to sustain themselves, and later, that the new gods are both capable and determined to exterminate the old gods.

I'm brand new to fiction writing and I picked up this book because it's a well-regarded piece of contemporary fiction and I wanted to read it with a critical eye. Any insight as to what it did right or wrong would be really helpful.

# ? Oct 16, 2014 17:43

Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi: Mar 26, 2005

Pete Zah posted:

I'm brand new to fiction writing and I picked up this book because it's a well-regarded piece of contemporary fiction and I wanted to read it with a critical eye. Any insight as to what it did right or wrong would be really helpful.

Well, in the context of the question that was asked re: when should the climax happen, I felt American Gods did it right by having the climax happen very near the end. In truth I could come up with many other examples of books that utilize the climax that way, but since I had just finished AG, it was fresh in my head.

You actually hit the nail on the head with regards to other components of the book though, like the vignettes: I also felt a lot of them slowed down the action and really could have been cut out entirely. In fact, I actually felt a lot of the book could have been trimmed, especially the parts where Shadow was hanging around Lakeside. Which was a shame, because I enjoyed many of the characters from Lakeside, but in the grand scheme of the plot, the whole section of him hiding out in the town felt...I don't know...extraneous.

This isn't the thread to delve heavily into how I felt about the book as a whole, so I'll just say I didn't really care for it, and I think a lot of that comes down to how dragged out the plot seemed and how long it took to get from one plot point to another. On a whole, I didn't feel it was structured very well.

Then again, most critics and award givers disagree with me so what do I know.

# ? Oct 16, 2014 19:25

Bobby Deluxe: May 9, 2004

Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:

Then again, most critics and award givers disagree with me so what do I know.

Critics and especially award givers are looking for something very, very different to the book buying public.

# ? Oct 17, 2014 00:42

DrVenkman: Dec 28, 2005; I think he can hear you, Ray.

Blade_of_tyshalle posted:

Let's talk about plotting and structure!

I'm developing an outline currently, and man, it is always the ending which gets me. I know the Three Act structure is the most common way to structure stories, so in terms of that, is the climax at the turning point between two and three, or what? I know Two is the rising action, where things snowball and get worse and worse, but what is the break into three? Is it a new twist that leads to a resolving climax in three?

Let's discuss, perhaps even advise. Anything but a prolonged shitfit

Well now, it really depends on what you're writing. The writer of The Dresden Files wrote a blog about that very thing, where he likes to have a propulsive action that leads the story from the end of Act 2 and into Act 3. Once you've decided on what that is then it gives Act 2 a bit of drive.

I'm currently writing a mystery novel, and so I've used that tip to help me. The thing is that it can be anything really. Mine is another death, which means that as well as continuing with my story I can pepper in these little moments that eventually lead to that final bit of Act 2. It's like its own little arc. It can be anything though. It can be a death, it can be a piece of key information, it can be anything which provides that little bit of drive. Once you know how that act ends, the lead up to it becomes easy.

The actual climax of your story is good to put towards the end of the third act. If it's not, then anything that comes after better have a purpose to it.

As with anything though, it depends on your particular story. If you're planning on writing a sequel, then it's forgiveable that the climax might come a little earlier, because you can spend the rest of your third act setting up what comes next. I've read novels where the story literally ends with the climax, which can be jarring but effective too. Plan, have a rough idea and then just write the drat thing. You can mould and shape it later on.

# ? Oct 17, 2014 17:08

surfwriter1: Oct 17, 2014

Blade_of_tyshalle posted:

Let's talk about plotting and structure!

I'm developing an outline currently, and man, it is always the ending which gets me. I know the Three Act structure is the most common way to structure stories, so in terms of that, is the climax at the turning point between two and three, or what? I know Two is the rising action, where things snowball and get worse and worse, but what is the break into three? Is it a new twist that leads to a resolving climax in three?

Let's discuss, perhaps even advise. Anything but a prolonged shitfit

Generally, Act 3 has your climax. It's the ultimate battle between your hero and villain. This also depends on the story you're telling and what the overall conflict is (man vs. man, vs. nature, etc.), but just go with this. Work it backwards. If the climax happens in say, the middle of your third act (leaving time for the resolution), then what happens immediately before and during the first part of the third act is the journey to the climax. Think of it as the journey into the cave to destroy the villager-killing beast. The battle with the beast would be the climax and the tenuous walk into his lair being the early third act.

So, what gets us to the cave? The final clue? The pawprints left in the mud? The trail of blood from when the hero struck it with an arrow while it was attacking his family? Generally (again, 'cause nothing is set in stone), you inject the story with some new information or some reversal for the hero or the final clue which propels the hero into the third act. Some kick in the rear end, fire under the bum, new motivation to gain the strength that will allow him to face the monster. This could be in any type of battle whether it's physical or mental or spiritual or any other one of a thousand options. Whatever you choose, it needs to hurl the hero--and us--towards the final battle.

So in answer to your question (and in my opinion), the plot point at the end of Act 2 needs to make the audience brace and say, "Ah, here we go ... poo poo's about to go down." Now or never. Hope that helps, even if I'm reiterating what DrVenkman said. I'd be happy to make suggestions if you need an opinion on your outline.

surfwriter1 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 17, 2014

# ? Oct 17, 2014 22:24

ravenkult: Feb 3, 2011

I wouldn't look to American Gods for a book with good pacing or well...anything. I like it and all, but it's a bit atypical.

# ? Oct 17, 2014 23:33

Superb Owls: Nov 3, 2012

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

Superb Owls fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Oct 21, 2014

# ? Oct 21, 2014 14:15

magnificent7: Sep 22, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Superb Owls posted:

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

Soul crushing. I hated everybody in there and swore to never submit anything again.

But I did.

And I continue to (try to).

I haven't submitted anything in a long time, but getting reamed hurts like a bitch. And you write again, and again. It's only 1500 words, what's the worst that could happen. Eventually I got an honorable mention. That was pretty shocking to me.

And you will get better. You will learn the very bad things that you are doing, in a very public humiliating way, and it will scar you so that you become determined to either never do that thing again, or to know exactly why you are doing that bad thing, next time, and it will be something you use, not something you just leave in because meh. like, say, run on sentences.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 14:29

Lily Catts: Oct 17, 2012; Show me the way to you
(Heavy Metal)

Superb Owls posted:

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

You should read other people's entries. In fact, read everything for the week if you can, AND read the crits that follow. The only danger is getting discouraged at the people who are much better than you, but suck it up and keep writing--someday you'll find that you've caught up.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 15:38

ravenkult: Feb 3, 2011

thunderdome sucks dont read that garbage

# ? Oct 21, 2014 15:44

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

Superb Owls posted:

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

Losing was pretty great because Martello gave me an in-depth crit that made it pretty clear all the problems that story had and hopefully I don't ever make those mistakes again. It was really a good thing to happen and made me realize that I'm a bad writer and that I really have to strive to improve.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 15:48

Walamor: Dec 31, 2006; Fork 'em Devils!

Superb Owls posted:

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

Don't get down about it, being the #1 thing, it happens to a lot of people. Absolutely read other entries, and crits will be out soon that might give you more insight. Take the crits, digest them, and come back this week with something new!

# ? Oct 21, 2014 15:49

SurreptitiousMuffin: Mar 21, 2010

ravenkult posted:

thunderdome sucks dont read that garbage

Ravenkult's single Thunderdome entry posted:

Michael sounded shitfaced when he called me up. I had a pretty good buzz on myself, but the difference between us was probably a six-pack or two.
He said �Hey, listen man, I need to come up here� and then breathed into the phone like a creepy motherfucker. Sounded like he'd been running.
�Not today man, I'm already a six-pack in and I'm too lazy to get out of the house. What's up?� I would really have liked to avoid whatever crazy new poo poo Michael was about to rain down on me.
�Just come up here man. It'll only take a minute.�
�What's going on?�
A pause.
�I uh...I saw this deer. In the woods.�
�Right. So?�
�Well I uh...I wasn't really out hunting, but I did have the shotgun with me and it was so loving close, I figured I'd bag me a deer, ya know?�
I waited for him to finish the story because otherwise we'd be on the phone all day.
�And well ah...the loving deer spoke to me.�
�What's that?�
�The deer turned its head to me and loving talked.�
I laughed.
�What did the deer say?�
�I don't want to talk about that.�
Something cold had crept into his voice. Fear.
�How much did you have to drink before this impromptu hunting trip, Michael?�
�A lot less than it'd take for me to think a deer was talking to me.�
There was no getting out of it now.
�Hold tight, I'll be up there in twenty.�

I grabbed a couple of six packs and got into the Cadi. The road up to the cabin was a clusterfuck, especially driving this piece of poo poo, but it was the only transportation I had. I popped a tape into the deck and drove.

#

Michael lived in a cabin in the woods like a redneck, but he was actually from LA. Had an iPhone and a MacBook and everything, but dressed like a lumberjack and drove a lovely pickup truck he bought for a couple of grand a few years back. I'd call him a hipster but he was too committed. Hipsters don't poo poo in outhouses.

I parked behind his truck and got out. Michael sat on the porch, shotgun in one hand, Jack Daniels in the other. He looked like poo poo.
I slammed the car door.

�Well, here I am! Where's the loving deer at?�
He didn't laugh, so I walked up the porch steps. He looked at me, his eyes a bit too wide and crazy-looking.
�We have to go look for it man. It's out there somewhere.�
He gestured with his hand in the general direction of the woods.
�It's getting dark.�
He nodded.
�We should hurry,� he said and stood up.
�Look man, I don't know about this��
�I'm never going to be able to sleep again if I don't find that loving deer.�
�Are you sure it actually spoke to you? Maybe you had a seizure or something. Hallucination.�
�I'm loving telling you man, the thing turned its head and talked to me like we was in line at McDonalds or something.�
There really wasn't much to say. I grabbed a six-pack from the car and followed him into the woods.

#

�It was right about here.�
He pointed towards a flat expanse of rock where water had collected from the previous night's downpour. He lifted his shotgun and aimed.
�I had him right...there.� He exhaled the last word. �Then it ran off into the brush.�
I didn't really know anything about hunting. How the gently caress were we going to find it?
�Follow me.�

I walked behind him. It was getting dark and Michael's nervousness had started affecting me. The woods creeped me out at night.
We walked deeper into the forest. We found the dead deer a minute later. The carcass was spread out all over the clearing in chunks of flesh and body parts. The head, was lying on a small tower of rocks.

�What the gently caress.�

It looked like a ritualistic murder and now I was really regretting following Michael here. He was my buddy and all, but something seriously hosed up was happening and my Sunday would have been better spent sitting at home watching TV.
Michael stepped into a puddle of blood and approached the deer head. He prodded it with the shotgun and it toppled over.

�Looks like someone got to it first,� he said.
�No poo poo.�
The carcass seemed to have broken the spell. Michael looked around the clearing and then up to the sky, seemingly himself again.
�We should have taken a flashlight with us, it's going to be a bitch to get back in this darkness.�
I nodded.

I turned around to start the long walk home, when the screaming started. I'm not sure if animals can scream, but this sounded like pretty much every single one of them had started to wail. I�d never heard anything like it in my life.

We froze up. I wanted to start running, but managed to hold it together. The sound was deafening and my eardrums pulsed. Before I could say anything, Michael took off towards the sound, leaving me alone in the dark. I ran after him.

It only took a minute to reach the hilltop. We found animal carcasses along the way. Foxes, rabbits, owls, even a wolf. The trees on the hill were wiped out, burned to ashes. The earth was blackened in a radius of maybe half a mile. The animals weren't burned, just dead.
At the top of the hill was a great wheel made of fire and eyes watching us. It lit up the sky, turning night into day. We got closer, dropping the shotgun and six-pack of beers. I was no longer in control and the world no longer made any sense.

We stood and watched as it spun, a wheel within a wheel, covered in eyes that never blinked and all of them staring at us. It felt like what I imagined being judged by God would feel. It felt like someone was shifting through the flour to find the worms that infested it, the sins in my heart.
It spoke and the words were both booming and completely silent.

�Κύριος ὡς πῦρ ἥξει καὶ ὡς καταιγὶς τὰ ἅρματα αὐτοῦ ἀποδοῦναι ἐν θυμῷ ἐκδίκησιν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀποσκορακισμὸν αὐτοῦ ἐν φλογὶ πυρός.�
�What did it say?� I whispered. I�m not sure why I was asking him, but as far as I was concerned, he was now an expert by virtue of seeing weird poo poo an hour ahead of me.
�It�s scripture,� he said. �the Lord will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury.�
�I nodded as if that made perfect sense.
�I have to tell you what it said to me before.�
�Tell me.�

Michael managed to pull his eyes away from the wheel of fire long enough for him to look at me.

�It told me to kill everyone I love and then blow my brains out, because God is dead and the end is here and what happens next, you don�t want to see.�

# ? Oct 21, 2014 16:43

Blade_of_tyshalle: Jul 12, 2009; If you think that, along the way, you're not going to fail... you're blind.

There's no one I've ever met, no matter how successful they are, who hasn't said they had their failures along the way.

Never read other people's Dome entries, especially not mine. Hell, I don't even read mine.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 16:44

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

I've not been 'doming much the last month due to work committments so I make do by reading the entries each week. It's worth it although you shouldn't be afraid to skip something if you can tell it's going to be awful (spelling mistakes in the first paragraph, no paragraphing etc.).

To save you time you can thus skip mine

Obliterati fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 21, 2014

# ? Oct 21, 2014 16:46

ravenkult: Feb 3, 2011

SurreptitiousMuffin posted:

Oh you sure showed me what's up.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 17:05

Echo Cian: Jun 16, 2011

ravenkult posted:

Oh you sure showed me what's up.

Oh hey I forgot I'd done that crit I never posted.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NeuwPs_xeDRnD0LbJndzYgTiGftr0I5jONZh9gO3zNg/edit

Enjoy.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 17:34

magnificent7: Sep 22, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

SurreptitiousMuffin posted:

stuff

Now that wasn't very nice.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:05

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

Superb Owls posted:

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

Read Thunderdome, read non-Thunderdome writing, read critiques of writing, and write all day every day. Losing is not at all shameful if you try again..

ravenkult posted:

thunderdome sucks dont read that garbage

it's ok we'll let you come sit at the cool kids table if you want, you just have to ask

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:07

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

magnificent7 posted:

Now that wasn't very nice.

Posting someone's own writing at them: the height of rudeness

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:08

magnificent7: Sep 22, 2005; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Sitting Here posted:

Posting someone's own writing at them: the height of rudeness

But it's just not a nice thing to do. If anything, it reinforces the negative stereotype you Domers have.

I've seen your soft sides, we've cuddled, we've sang Kum Ba Ya. It's a brutal place, but when the lights go down and the audience returns to their caves, all you wrestlers take off the makeup and you're actually decent, helpful people who push people to get better.

Spoilered so as to not ruin the show for anybody.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:14

ravenkult: Feb 3, 2011

I was just joking, but it's nice to see someone was butthurt enough to burn me by...posting that one story I wrote? I mean I wasn't last or anything so I call that good enough for my first Thunderdome.

Yo Echo, thanks for the crit. I've since rewritten, but I'm sure there's some dumb poo poo in there for me to fix.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:18

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

ravenkult posted:

I was just joking, but it's nice to see someone was butthurt enough to burn me by...posting that one story I wrote? I mean I wasn't last or anything so I call that good enough for my first Thunderdome.

Yo Echo, thanks for the crit. I've since rewritten, but I'm sure there's some dumb poo poo in there for me to fix.

Muffin was taken in by the 'dome as an orphaned child and has since become its stalwart protector

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:24

crabrock: Aug 2, 2002; I

AM

MAGNIFICENT

ravenkult posted:

thunderdome sucks dont read that garbage

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:29

SurreptitiousMuffin: Mar 21, 2010

ravenkult posted:

I was just joking, but it's nice to see someone was butthurt enough to burn me by...posting that one story I wrote? I mean I wasn't last or anything so I call that good enough for my first Thunderdome.

What I knew it was a joke and I was also joking.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 18:33

Armack: Jan 27, 2006

Superb Owls posted:

Went to Thunderdome this week... and lost. And I'm just wondering two things. a) Is it OK to read other people's Thunderdome entries to see what you could've done better and b) What was it like losing Thunderdome for everyone else?

Haven't lost yet, but I come within a razor's edge of losing each week so I can empathize.

Basically, there are two ways you can choose to look at it. You can decide to make losing a soul crushing blow to your self worth, or you could take the more mature approach which is to recognize TD as an opportunity--a chance to get completely honest crit from multiple readers in an environment that motivates to you improve.

Some of my favorite TD writers have one or more losses. I also get the feeling that most of the Gods-amongst-mortals who earn HMs every week have been writing for a very long time. If you feel intimidated by great TD entrants, try imagining how their writing must have looked when they were pimple-faced teenagers posting to fanfic sites on 56k.

Writing is a skill, not an attribute. Give yourself permission to start as a novice on the long road to mastery.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 19:03

Chairchucker: Nov 14, 2006; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

Every time I lost it was because those dumb domers didn't understand my genius, man. They just don't get it. I'll show them. I'll show them all.

# ? Oct 21, 2014 21:03

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

Chairchucker posted:

Every time I lost it was because those dumb domers didn't understand my genius, man. They just don't get it. I'll show them. I'll show them all.

a buncha toiletsuckers, those judges are

# ? Oct 21, 2014 21:16

Mercedes: Mar 7, 2006; "So you Jesus?"

"And you black?"

"Nigga prove it!"

And so Black Jesus turned water into a bucket of chicken. And He saw that it was good.

I got two losses, and the most DMs out of anyone. But that poo poo don't stop me son! I write to entertain, and if the humor doesn't tickle the judge's fancy, boy do I crash hard. It sucks being told "your story was the worst this week, you dirty, filthy bastard". Hard to shake it off, but just keep on trucking.

# ? Oct 22, 2014 02:33