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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:My squad of seven Wyches (inluding Hekatrix with agoniser, no special weapons) charged an Avatar in turn five. Two died before they got to strike, but the others got five wounds through to kill him. Not to totally discount your experience, but five Wyches with an Agonizer will average... one wound from the Hekatrix (with a 4++ against it) and one wound from the whole rest of the squad (which has to deal with the 3+). Combat Drugs can help this (giving you some extra attacks or making the normal attacks wound on 5s rather than 6s), but they won't really be swinging the tide of the fight. Either you were hitting significantly weakened target or you got really lucky there (or both.)
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Oct 14, 2014 02:58
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LingcodKilla posted:I typed them out in the largest print I could with each part of the doctrine its own paragraph and left the piece of paper on top of my army list. Ended up using tactical on turn 1, devastator turn 3 and assault was never useful. One thing I like to use is that tactical doctrine in conjunction with my droppod Sternguard - sure they don't get to reroll misses but they DO get to re-roll 1's which is super important when I am usually dropping in meltaguns and combi-meltas to deal with vehicles in the backfield.
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Oct 14, 2014 03:52
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Think I'm going to give iron hands a chance now. My opponents use a lot of thunderfire cannons causing outrageous damage in compared to their cost. Add being impossible to kill it's forcing me to adjust my list to deal with them. Going to run a small squad of legions of the dammed for a pair of Meltaguns to slag the gun and techmarine. I hate having to do that but two of three possible opponents are hooked on those drat things. Anyone else have any luck running them as a suicidal fragging squad?
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Oct 14, 2014 04:23
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Sternguard would be even better, probably, considering they can take combi-plasmas/combi-meltas as well as the poisoned special ammunition.
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Oct 14, 2014 04:34
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panascope posted:Sternguard would be even better, probably, considering they can take combi-plasmas/combi-meltas as well as the poisoned special ammunition. How do they deal with the 3++ cover save from bolstered ruins? Flaming projectiles seems to put that to rest.
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Oct 14, 2014 05:06
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LingcodKilla posted:How do they deal with the 3++ cover save from bolstered ruins? Flaming projectiles seems to put that to rest.
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Oct 14, 2014 05:10
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What kind of firepower do those things put out? I imagine my x20 man tactical blobs wouldn't enjoy getting shot by one.
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Oct 14, 2014 05:53
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LingcodKilla posted:Think I'm going to give iron hands a chance now. Legion of the Damned are pretty alright as a "drop in, kill something" kind of squad. Melta + Multimelta will ruin most things pretty bad, or you could go with Plasma + Multimelta instead if you really want some extra shots. However, as panascope noted, Sternguard are actually quite good at the role as well- by using Hellfire Rounds (2+ poison) you can bypass the Thunderfire's main advantage, namely being Toughness 7. When it starts having to make saves, the 3+ or 2+ armor save will only carry it a pretty limited distance, as it's basically just two Terminators in that respect. Either one will work as a fairly good solution to the unit, but TFCs are a pain pretty much no matter what. BULBASAUR posted:What kind of firepower do those things put out? I imagine my x20 man tactical blobs wouldn't enjoy getting shot by one. Four S6 small blasts for 100pts, with the option to use other shots (albeit at reduced stats.) Thunderfires are just brutal anti-infantry weapons and they're no slouch against light tanks, either. The fact that you get to reinforce some cover and it comes with a Power Fist, Flamer, and Plasma Pistol is just gravy.
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Oct 14, 2014 06:06
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AbusePuppy posted:Four S6 small blasts for 100pts, with the option to use other shots (albeit at reduced stats.) Thunderfires are just brutal anti-infantry weapons and they're no slouch against light tanks, either. The fact that you get to reinforce some cover and it comes with a Power Fist, Flamer, and Plasma Pistol is just gravy.
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Oct 14, 2014 06:13
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Ok cool, you have me persuaded to bring x2 T8 quad mortars to some of my games. (I am so sorry LingcodKilla  )
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Oct 14, 2014 06:35
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BULBASAUR posted:Ok cool, you have me persuaded to bring x2 T8 quad mortars to some of my games. I'll loving cut you. J/K No seriously.  Let's see in a five man squad I can take a meltagun, multimelta and a combimelta. Think I'll go with that so in the off chance he doesn't run them they can just blow up armor. Of course he started running two of them last game soooo Crab Dad fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 07:16
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AbusePuppy posted:Legion of the Damned are pretty alright as a "drop in, kill something" kind of squad. Melta + Multimelta will ruin most things pretty bad, or you could go with Plasma + Multimelta instead if you really want some extra shots. My LoTD ALWAYS deliver. I kit them out with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol on Sgt (along with Power Fist) and let them go to work. That Plasma Fire that ignores cover has caught many an opponent by surprise! Not to mention the fact that they can fire the Plasma Cannon on the round they deepstrike due to relentless from Slow and Purposeful. Then when they finally DO get assaulted or assault - they pretty much tarpit anything with that 3+ Invuln for a LONG time. One of my favorite units to play with in all honesty... especially since I built mine out of older cheap marine parts and skulls I had laying around! The flames paint up super fast - I even wrote a tutorial for how to do it right here: http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3150
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Oct 14, 2014 07:24
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Rad
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Oct 14, 2014 07:31
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loving hell. I bought 2 squads of the legit ones and those are making me regret it.
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Oct 14, 2014 08:38
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LingcodKilla posted:I'll loving cut you. Don't worry dude, I won't have the models painted for another 2 years minimum 
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Oct 14, 2014 08:48
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Ghost Hand posted:My LoTD ALWAYS deliver. I kit them out with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol on Sgt (along with Power Fist) and let them go to work. That Plasma Fire that ignores cover has caught many an opponent by surprise! Not to mention the fact that they can fire the Plasma Cannon on the round they deepstrike due to relentless from Slow and Purposeful. Then when they finally DO get assaulted or assault - they pretty much tarpit anything with that 3+ Invuln for a LONG time.
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Oct 14, 2014 09:00
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I used a Wyvern versus tyranids last night. Results were impressive.
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Oct 14, 2014 09:39
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:I'm just back from my Warhammerfest/World trip. Had a great time, I much prefer the format and venue of the 'fest over recent Gamesdays. Could do with more stuff from normal GW to look at, felt a bit like a Forgeworld show in regards to tables and models. I sat in on the 30K intro talk from Andy Hoare (who wrote the IA13 book) and after I commented that there seemed to be way more FW people than anyone else he said that the main FW guy organized the weekend, so it was all down to him to make it a success. I detected a slight hint of political rivalry there but didn't delve into it! Also, good to hear your Reavers did well, but I'm really wary of taking Wyches now. I think I'd rather take Scourges for vehicle-killing, with their jump movement and 4 Haywire Blasters.
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Oct 14, 2014 09:41
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Frobbe posted:I used a Wyvern versus tyranids last night. Results were impressive. Wyverns vs Tyranids or Orks are simply disgusting. Logically I should just run two for a mere 130 pts, but it just seems unfair. Does anyone UK based know of a good collapsible gaming table? Or should I make my own? Looking to do some 40k in my new flat when I move in a week, and wanted to have something I can put up and take down when my 'ham friends swing by. Floorhammer knackers the knees. I was thinking I could just screw some hinges into MDF and rig up some legs, but that seems unelegant and potentially expensive materials-wise.
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Oct 14, 2014 09:47
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++Moolah, come in++ ++Moolah, do you copy?++
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Oct 14, 2014 09:54
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HiveCommander posted:++Moolah, come in++ Those miniatures are carved from his bones.
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Oct 14, 2014 09:59
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Finally got my hands on the 'little red' 30K book bundle. For the price of a regular old 40k codex these are impressive- you get silver edges, larger pages, a cloth thing, 57 unit options, 3 new FOCs (outside of the usual rites of war), and its 30k and not 40 gay. Its really nice having the rules all in a single place so you don't have to lug around a leather bound book with aluminium edges telling all people you are an alpha level warham. There are some nice little rules updates in here, but that's old news.
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Oct 14, 2014 10:07
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Ghost Hand posted:My LoTD ALWAYS deliver. I kit them out with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol on Sgt (along with Power Fist) and let them go to work. That Plasma Fire that ignores cover has caught many an opponent by surprise! Not to mention the fact that they can fire the Plasma Cannon on the round they deepstrike due to relentless from Slow and Purposeful. Then when they finally DO get assaulted or assault - they pretty much tarpit anything with that 3+ Invuln for a LONG time.  in other skull related news I ordered some 30k night lords stuff...
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Oct 14, 2014 11:39
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AbusePuppy posted:Not to totally discount your experience, but five Wyches with an Agonizer will average... one wound from the Hekatrix (with a 4++ against it) and one wound from the whole rest of the squad (which has to deal with the 3+). Combat Drugs can help this (giving you some extra attacks or making the normal attacks wound on 5s rather than 6s), but they won't really be swinging the tide of the fight. Either you were hitting significantly weakened target or you got really lucky there (or both.) I forgot to say they had S4 from the crumb Spacka they'd taken. Yeah, it was probably a fluke, it just seemed like an amusing example of how even the supposedly shittest units can still be worth taking if you like them/need more Troops. krushgroove posted:I sat in on the 30K intro talk from Andy Hoare (who wrote the IA13 book) and after I commented that there seemed to be way more FW people than anyone else he said that the main FW guy organized the weekend, so it was all down to him to make it a success. I detected a slight hint of political rivalry there but didn't delve into it! Interestingly that's not the first time I've heard of political infighting between FW and the parent company. krushgroove posted:Also, good to hear your Reavers did well, but I'm really wary of taking Wyches now. I think I'd rather take Scourges for vehicle-killing, with their jump movement and 4 Haywire Blasters.
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Oct 14, 2014 11:55
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:
In my view FW is clearly more expensive, but they've been absolutely crushing it in terms of community goodwill and relations in the past few years. Indescribable growth from a fairly niche section of the Hobby to something pretty much mainstream. Their rules development alone is, imo, vastly superior and actually has community feedback which alone sets them head and shoulders above GW.
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Oct 14, 2014 12:05
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ghetto wormhole posted:Those miniatures are carved from his bones.
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Oct 14, 2014 12:19
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Lord Twisted posted:In my view FW is clearly more expensive, but they've been absolutely crushing it in terms of community goodwill and relations in the past few years. Indescribable growth from a fairly niche section of the Hobby to something pretty much mainstream. They've also been crushing it with their design as well, not in terms of new prettier space marines (which are very pretty), but the outright new stuff like 30k vehicles, the knights, and all the Mechanicum robits and tanks. In contrast the parent gave us a mining truck crossed with an armoured cash car on caterpillar tracks, a dogs head with stub wings and engines, and a wolf hover sled wolf pulled by wolf men.
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Oct 14, 2014 12:21
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Santa's sleigh actually looks pretty funky in person, and is in keeping with traditional 40k. The other two examples are bad designs though.
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Oct 14, 2014 12:28
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BULBASAUR posted:Finally got my hands on the 'little red' 30K book bundle. For the price of a regular old 40k codex these are impressive- you get silver edges, larger pages, a cloth thing, 57 unit options, 3 new FOCs (outside of the usual rites of war), and its 30k and not 40 gay. Its really nice having the rules all in a single place so you don't have to lug around a leather bound book with aluminium edges telling all people you are an alpha level warham. Rapey Joe Stalin posted:This game I was using two Razorwings in that role, but didn't actually face any appreciable vehicular opposition. Lord Twisted posted:Their rules development alone is, imo, vastly superior and actually has community feedback which alone sets them head and shoulders above GW. I was able to chat a bit with FW and with Jervis as well, they do have internal playtesting and even read through comments and things online, and Jervis said they have been actively trying to de-buff the recent codexes (as everyone has seen already). So that's good to know! 
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Oct 14, 2014 13:18
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krushgroove posted:
I came off as a bit overly critical of the latest codexes - people have been bemoaning them as underpowered or bland, which is true in some cases, but I'd rather GW tone it back slightly so there are simply fewer rules to remember and fewer rules conflicts. I hold up the SM Codex as real example of what they can achieve - a book which can build at least 5-6 different armies and have them be somewhat competitive: Biker lists Tactical body spam (Imperial Fists chapter tactics!) Dreadnought spam (Iron Hands) Drop Pod Assault (w/ Kantor Sternguard) Flyer support (StormXXX wings) Assault armies (Raven guard)
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Oct 14, 2014 14:13
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krushgroove posted:I've got 2 Razorwings now (just have to assemble them) and if I took both would probably have them fitted with a mix of anti-vehicle and anti-infantry. Not sure what the optimum loadout is but mostly I don't care, I just want to have both of them on the table at the same time, all painted and looking awesome. For upgrades I would say dark lances, night shields, and maybe a splinter cannon. I wouldn't bother changing the missiles unless you have a specific target in mind. 155 points (without the cannon upgrade) is pretty good if you're going to take two. And yeah, my Venom, Raiders and Razorwing (I borrowed the second one... ordering another today) are just basecoated at the moment, but sat down looking at their silhouette against a city table was really cool.
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Oct 14, 2014 15:22
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Lord Twisted posted:I came off as a bit overly critical of the latest codexes - people have been bemoaning them as underpowered or bland, which is true in some cases, but I'd rather GW tone it back slightly so there are simply fewer rules to remember and fewer rules conflicts. You forget the three thunderfire spam list.
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Oct 14, 2014 16:25
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LingcodKilla posted:You forget the three thunderfire spam list. But all of those lists have 3 Thunderfires??????
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Oct 14, 2014 17:21
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Cataphract posted:
Good God Curze looks loving amazing.
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Oct 14, 2014 17:54
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Lord Twisted posted:In my view FW is clearly more expensive, but they've been absolutely crushing it in terms of community goodwill and relations in the past few years. Indescribable growth from a fairly niche section of the Hobby to something pretty much mainstream. Considering they are doing this under the same restrictions that are applied to GW prime I think they are doing amazing. If they were unshackled it would be even more amazing. Regardless of WHAT company - there is always some type of rivalry/friction between groups within the larger organization. I like to think of FW as the GW "think tank"...
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Oct 14, 2014 17:57
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I just think of Forgeworld as the GW we used to know and love and GW prime as their bankroll.
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Oct 14, 2014 18:03
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Lord Twisted posted:Their rules development alone is, imo, vastly superior and actually has community feedback which alone sets them head and shoulders above GW. I love FW's models and fluff writing and their books are amazingly pretty, but their rules writing is usually pretty awful. You get stuff like the Sabre Platform or R'varna that are so insanely broken they blow away every other unit in the same (powerful) codex, and on the other hand you get stuff like the Manta or the new Y'vahra's rules that show a fundamental ignorance of how the game works. Forge World is cool dudes and I'm glad that their company exists and all, but rules writing is not their strongpoint. I'm pretty sure if I spent some time working on it I could put together a 30K list that was every bit as awful and degenerate as the 40K lists that exist right now. Lord Twisted posted:I came off as a bit overly critical of the latest codexes - people have been bemoaning them as underpowered or bland, which is true in some cases, but I'd rather GW tone it back slightly so there are simply fewer rules to remember and fewer rules conflicts. The thing is, it isn't a choice between "interesting" and "bland/weak"; you can have a relatively-intuitive book that ranks well on internal and external balance and can build multiple interesting armies. The problem is that GW is so adamantly in the mindset that good game design is the antithesis of casual play that they refuse to even look in that direction. I think the SM, Tau, and IG codices are examples of relatively well-designed books that offer a good number of viable options to players of all types and can build many different functional armies. They all have their problems, but as far as 40K codices go, I think they are pretty well done and could easily serve as an example. On the other hand, the Dark Eldar and Grey Knights books are not well-balanced (as a small handful of options are just clearly better than all the others), nor flavorful (as they don't accurately represent the armies as described in the fluff), nor interesting (they essentially only allow for one effective build due to limited number of options.) It's not so much the power level itself that I take issue with, because power levels are essentially arbitrary as long as you keep them consistent across books- the problem is that even within the context of their own book, those codices are very bland and do not offer players any truly interesting choices to make. As an example, the Tau book has a ton of different and effective HQ choices. You can go with a Cadre Fireblade for a cheap model that makes one squad more effective, or an Ethereal if you want to buff your whole army's morale and give it utility abilities (at the potential cost of a VP). You can take a Commander for customizability in a dozen different roles or Farsight for a surprise melee threat anywhere on the table or Shadowsun for a super-mobile and super-protected unit. Every single one of those is a defensible choice from a purely rules-based perspective and none of them are really strictly "better" than any other. Neither are any of them actually all that complicated in terms of their rules (hell, Farsight barely even has any text in his entry.) Compare to the Grey Knights HQ slot. Why would you ever take anything but a Librarian? The answer is that you wouldn't, because he's just better than the other options unless you are going for an incredibly niche build.
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Oct 14, 2014 18:06
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NTRabbit posted:They've also been crushing it with their design as well, not in terms of new prettier space marines (which are very pretty), but the outright new stuff like 30k vehicles, the knights, and all the Mechanicum robits and tanks. In contrast the parent gave us a mining truck crossed with an armoured cash car on caterpillar tracks, a dogs head with stub wings and engines, and a wolf hover sled wolf pulled by wolf men. I think it's a little unfair to give FW sole credit for the knights. The original and still best looking variant is the plastic one. You also left out the latest GW releases, the very nice DE stuff. Also, I like the wolfsled. It is the most concentrated 40K mix of awesome and ridiculous since the lord of skulls and more skulls. But yeah, FW has been doing amazing work with all the FW stuff. I especially like how distinct they have made all the Admech stuff. And the battle automata are that perfect mix of very current design with just a hint of RT era throwback design. Lord Twisted posted:I came off as a bit overly critical of the latest codexes - people have been bemoaning them as underpowered or bland, which is true in some cases, but I'd rather GW tone it back slightly so there are simply fewer rules to remember and fewer rules conflicts. I think you're stretching a bit by implying that a Raven Guard list is anywhere near as competitive as a White Scars or Iron Hands list. I like the Marine codex's variety of options and the fact that there are meaningful differences between the chapters without having to take special characters. But I don't think it is a beacon of excellent design. The balance between the chapter tactics is all out of whack. There are trap choices like vanguard vets. And there are maybe 2 good relics.
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Oct 14, 2014 18:12
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Ghost Hand, can you please pull some strings when you are playing 30k over at the Forgeworld Bunker? These 30k troops options are so cool on paper, but whoever decided a 10 man assault squad should cost 250 points needs to stop playing gunlines. They made cheap rear end predators even better in the update, but the bad troops options are still untouched. Leaning really hard on humble tactical squads here NTRabbit posted:They've also been crushing it with their design as well, not in terms of new prettier space marines (which are very pretty), but the outright new stuff like 30k vehicles, the knights, and all the Mechanicum robits and tanks. In contrast the parent gave us a mining truck crossed with an armoured cash car on caterpillar tracks, a dogs head with stub wings and engines, and a wolf hover sled wolf pulled by wolf men. How can you forget the Michelin Marine Men
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Oct 14, 2014 18:22
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https://www.facebook.com/GWRenaissanceCentreGames Workshop posted:Store Closing - after 3 years of serving our customers in the Altamonte Springs area. We will be closing our doors as of October 25th. This was not an easy decision, and despite all our efforts to relocate to an alternative site we are unable to at this time. RIP Altamonte GW. Clay was a great manager with recognized potential so I'm sure they'll find another place for him in the company... if he wants to stay, which doesn't seem very likely.
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