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Bad Munki posted:Oh hey, instead of trying to find some way to fish a cord behind and doing a bunch of silly splicing and whatnot, what about going between? "Accessible" to the code means you can get to both ends easily without tools. Readily accessible means you don't need a ladder. Don't forget that any outlet you install in a kitchen has to be GFCI by code, too. Switched GFCI outlets suck dick. I'm digging your install plan, honestly. Without interpreting this as professional advice, going with regular outlets up high like that should be just fine. A slightly simpler install plan is to just drop romex down from your light into some junction boxes and just not install outlets in them. Hard-wire your lamp connections inside those boxes and basically just do two pulls. Finding a blank plate with a grommet on it shouldn't be too hard. Even just drilling a blank plate to accept a 1/2 cable clamp would be fine.
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 19:50 |
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# ? May 31, 2024 20:36 |
Ehh, I like the outlet option more. Feels/looks more legit, and that matters because whenever we have company over, the very first thing I'll do is have everyone climb up on the kitchen counter where we'll spend a good five minutes discussing the new outlets. What about switched gfci outlets suck? Do they just tend to trip all the time? And can I get around that requirement by the outlet not being a general outlet but for a particular installed device only? For instance, the outlet in the ceiling of my garage isn't on gfci and that' okay because it's only for the garage door opener. But yeah, the only way water would get up to those outlets would be if the roof blew off in a rainstorm, so I'll probably just go with the regular outlets and if an inspector complains in a few years when we move, I'll either replace it or blank them out.
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 20:12 |
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Bad Munki posted:Ehh, I like the outlet option more. Feels/looks more legit, and that matters because whenever we have company over, the very first thing I'll do is have everyone climb up on the kitchen counter where we'll spend a good five minutes discussing the new outlets. Most of the easy GFCI outlets revert to tripped when power is removed, requiring you to push the button on the outlet every time power goes out. This is clearly a non-starter for lights. Also, it's not GFCIs that are required by the new code. It's AFCIs. NFPA 210.12 posted:Arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in ... (A) all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens.... What a serious pain. The new code basically reads "if your house isn't 100% AFCI or GFCI (except for the following exceptions) it will be if you do ANY WORK AT ALL ON IT."
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 20:33 |
Oh, what about in 2007, when the house was built? That's when these new outlets I'm about to install went in.
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 20:38 |
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You could wire it so that you start with a GFCI that protects the switch and the downstream lights/outlets. That's the way I wired my under-cabinet lighting since there is a nonzero chance of a light getting wet or being broken during a cooking mishap. I think the problem comes from having a switch before the GFCI, in which case it can't be reset while the switch is off and some (stupid) outlets trip themselves when the power to them is switched off.
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 20:39 |
Does anyone make a switch with gfci baked in? e: or afci or whatever ee: sweet, only $170 http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-AFSW1-T-AFCI-SWITCH-COMBO/dp/B00O2ANJX4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412970138&sr=8-1&keywords=afci+switch Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 20:40 |
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Most of the easy GFCI outlets revert to tripped when power is removed, requiring you to push the button on the outlet every time power goes out. This is clearly a non-starter for lights. I can confirm that none of the GFCI outlets sold at Lowe's in the past 5+ years do this (used to be Cooper but switched to Pass & Seymour about a year ago).
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 20:43 |
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Bad Munki posted:Oh, what about in 2007, when the house was built? That's when these new outlets I'm about to install went in. Then you're cool. I don't know why you didn't just start this whole mess off with showing us the very clearly already-existing outlets that have always been there since the house was built .
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 21:52 |
Yeah, my bad, I'm just trying to piece together what they probably did before the drywall went up.
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# ? Oct 10, 2014 22:01 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9UjxG8sN1c What the christ
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# ? Oct 11, 2014 18:45 |
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insta posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9UjxG8sN1c It's not like it is intended to be used long term or something, it's just a neat project. Guy would probably be a really awesome high school science teacher.
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# ? Oct 11, 2014 22:48 |
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insta posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9UjxG8sN1c
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# ? Oct 13, 2014 00:54 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAGhrOgo9Qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E6pWxgunAA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_rheostat It's even more impressive when done professionally. ThinkFear fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Oct 14, 2014 |
# ? Oct 14, 2014 20:09 |
Well, my under-cabinet lighting installation is going super well. I figured I'd have to do it over a couple days, but getting the first outlet (the tough one, against the outer wall) installed went super well, actually. Had to really get myself down in the insulation at the edge in order to reach back to the plate to fish the wire in an inch at a time, but I only had to go down a couple feet, so it wasn't so bad. Anyhow, I hooked that outlet up, and checked it out, everything works great. I found out I had a hot running to the light outlet I'm branching off of, so I ended up stuffing two runs in and made the outlet half switched. I don't currently need that, but I figure if I want it in six months, I'll be sad I didn't just do it now. Next up is the other outlet, should be a lot easier, way more space to work in. I figure I'll have this done in the next couple hours, no big deal. Faaaaantastic.
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# ? Oct 14, 2014 20:26 |
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Cross-postin' from the bitcoin thread Bitcoins: quote:the hardware kept increasing until I had to spread it out to my garage and back room. I decided at that point I would rewire the garage with 4 new breakers just for the miners. Well that was going to happen this weekend... Until the pictured event happened yesterday.
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# ? Oct 14, 2014 22:42 |
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As someone who does a lot of datacenter work, I found the amateur larger scale bitcoin mining thing that was going on a whole ago hilarious. So many idiotic setups.
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# ? Oct 14, 2014 23:04 |
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FCKGW posted:Cross-postin' from the bitcoin thread What is the pictured event? Wall collapse from a burning circuit... wall torn down for fire? What are we looking at?
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 02:23 |
I'm going to guess he put a 20A breaker on a 15A circuit so he could power more shitputers, and then the wiring melted and tried to burn his house down. Then the fire department made sure no fire was hiding by removing a portion of the wall.
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 04:18 |
Got my lights done. Before: After: The pictures make it look more severe than it is, because there were NO other lights on anywhere nearby except for the old light over the sink. During the day or with the other kitchen lights on, everything looks a bit softer in person and it's really just super nicely illuminated and it's god drat glorious, I can hardly wait to bake the hell out of something, gonna be awesome. Thanks for the help! Everything went better than expected. I figured it'd take me a couple days just because of the attic work, but I managed to get it 100% complete in a day, and that was including copious breaks. e: Turns out I have a bottom in the sink with a drain and everything. I always just thought it was a dark hole we threw our dirty water in.
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 04:34 |
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Does the overhead light not work?
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 16:47 |
It does, I just left it off for dramatic effect. And it's not super bright anyhow, just a couple 60s or something. e: During the day with other lights on: Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 16:49 |
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Ah, okay. Looks great. If you wanted to get crazy you could look into some of those flexible track lighting systems. Just install the base where the overhead light is now and carry around the track to place lights wherever you want. Like so:
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 17:46 |
It's a problem with this house in general, my one major complaint: insufficient lighting, and many of the fixtures that are there are limited in what bulbs they can take, which means yellow, yellow, yellow. These new lights are huge improvement. They look really stark white and cold in the pic, but they're actually still firmly on the warm side, just not comically warm like the existing lighting. Anyhow, not really a big fan of the loop-di-doo roller coaster track lighting, but I may well put in a straight track or two now that I'm more familiar with what's going on in the attic and I found all the relevant receptacles. However, the kitchen, dining area, and living room all share some air space (it's a split level with the living room below the kitchen/dining from a balcony) so I'd need to make sure any new fixtures don't look ridiculous in proximity.
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 17:53 |
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Bought this panel for my garage. Will probably try to get it installed tomorrow, I'm going to have a few questions for sure. First, the breaker in the main that goes to the garage is 20 amps. That's all that's going to be feeding the subpanel for now. Can I run 2 15 amp breakers off of that? Or do I just need to stick to one 15 or 20 amp breaker in the garage for now? edit: Is this about how I'd want to wire it? fknlo fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Oct 15, 2014 |
# ? Oct 15, 2014 19:17 |
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fknlo posted:Bought this panel for my garage. Oh dear loving god.
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 22:22 |
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Jihad Me At Hello posted:Oh dear loving god. That's why I'm here asking. That's roughly what I got from googling "wiring a sub panel".
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 22:26 |
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You don't need the jumper, just move one of the breakers to the same busbar as the other one.. I just read back at your previous posts but didn't see what the two 15 amp circuits are feeding. Depending on the load you don't want a 20 amp circuit feeding 2 15 amp circuits. There was no reason to replace the previous panel other than to give you more slots, yes it did need to be rewired/removed and correct breaker put in if it was a 20amp. I'm trying to understand what the point of the panel is at all to be honest. I suppose to size down from the 12 gauge to 14 but if that's the case you could only use one breaker for that. Sorry if I'm missing something you've already explained but is the 12 gauge wire going straight from your main panel to the "subpanel"? Also would be helpful to know what the 14's do. I suppose though if nothing's been tripping and you're not adding anything of significance you'll be fine. Your wiring drawing would work though. Jihad Me At Hello fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Oct 15, 2014 |
# ? Oct 15, 2014 22:38 |
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Jihad Me At Hello posted:Your wiring drawing would work though. Yeah, right up until somebody drops a 240V breaker in there. If that "jumper" is even remotely legitimate I just lost a lot of faith in the NEC
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# ? Oct 15, 2014 23:45 |
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Jihad Me At Hello posted:You don't need the jumper, just move one of the breakers to the same busbar as the other one.. I just read back at your previous posts but didn't see what the two 15 amp circuits are feeding. Depending on the load you don't want a 20 amp circuit feeding 2 15 amp circuits. There was no reason to replace the previous panel other than to give you more slots, yes it did need to be rewired/removed and correct breaker put in if it was a 20amp. I'm trying to understand what the point of the panel is at all to be honest. I suppose to size down from the 12 gauge to 14 but if that's the case you could only use one breaker for that. I eventually plan on doing some wiring upgrades with some possible future additions to the panel in the garage. Figured I might as well get it installed now. Right now one of the 14's powers 3 outlets(one is for the garage door opener) and the other does 4 two light fluorescent fixtures. They currently all run off the one breaker in the "box" that's out there now.
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 01:04 |
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fknlo posted:I eventually plan on doing some wiring upgrades with some possible future additions to the panel in the garage. Figured I might as well get it installed now. Right now one of the 14's powers 3 outlets(one is for the garage door opener) and the other does 4 two light fluorescent fixtures. They currently all run off the one breaker in the "box" that's out there now. Do not install the jumper. Absolutely do not. You're going to have breaker <space> breaker. Check in the box for a sticker that says "120V only" or make one yourself to put on there. Rest seems good enough, and putting what you've listed on a single 20A breaker seems fine. Post your final install. I know you'll do fine, but I get this feeling that others are just waiting for you to melt your block to the ground because you cut your romex sheath 5/8" past the cable clamp instead of 1/2".
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 01:47 |
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IANAE, but just to support my own understanding: The jumper is there because the box is expecting two hot lines from the transformer (what do you call those in that context) but you've only got Hot/Transformer Neutral/Ground coming in over the 12/2? There's no way you can actually drive 240v circuit (i.e. both sides of that box) from a 12/2 line coming in, right? Also, couldn't he just put 10A breakers in there instead? If he's just running the overhead lights he should still be fine, and that would keep the draw below the 20A the input is rated at. Hubis fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Oct 16, 2014 |
# ? Oct 16, 2014 14:45 |
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Hubis posted:IANAE, but just to support my own understanding: The jumper is there because the box is expecting two hot lines from the transformer (what do you call those in that context) but you've only got Hot/Transformer Neutral/Ground coming in over the 12/2? There's no way you can actually drive 240v circuit (i.e. both sides of that box) from a 12/2 line coming in, right? You are not an electrician The box isn't "expecting" anything. It's not a piece of utilization equipment(a thing that uses power), it's a device (a thing that controls the distribution of power). It is there so there aren't free-floating electrical-tape splices and burning houses. The electrical code absolutely is not concerned in any way with what is cheap, easy, or readily expandable. So his device-of-convenience has to comply with rules that prevent stuff from burning down. One of these rules is that it should be obvious to idiots what's going on at a glance. Having both sides of an apparently 240V supply powered from the same phase is not obvious, and could lead to damage, so it's not allowed. He absolutely could put in a 10A breaker and be fine. 15A is the maximum allowed. However, he's trying (within code) to make his installation future-resistant. So he's using a box with more capability (100A Main-lug 240V panel for 20A 120V service) and breakers with sufficient capacity to add stuff to when his panel's service is upgraded (15A is fine for 8 outlets or a whole grip of lights). NFPA 70 90.1 posted:
This is basically the first real sentence in the first article of the code book.
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 16:11 |
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So the breaker in the main panel marked "garage" does not go to the garage. I tracked it down to a 15 amp breaker. Can I still proceed as planned with that or do I need to toss a bigger breaker in its place? For reference it's the bottom right breaker, not one on the left like I'd been lead to believe.
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 20:30 |
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fknlo posted:So the breaker in the main panel marked "garage" does not go to the garage. I tracked it down to a 15 amp breaker. Can I still proceed as planned with that or do I need to toss a bigger breaker in its place? Don't ever just 'toss a bigger breaker in its place' What gauge wire is the circuit from the main panel to the subpanel using again?
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 20:35 |
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PuTTY riot posted:Don't ever just 'toss a bigger breaker in its place' What gauge wire is the circuit from the main panel to the subpanel using again? Looks like either 12 or 10. It's the gray sheathed wire coming in from the top of the main panel. Looks like it goes to an outlet on my deck and then it's 12 gauge after that for sure.
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 20:53 |
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fknlo posted:Looks like either 12 or 10. It's the gray sheathed wire coming in from the top of the main panel. Looks like it goes to an outlet on my deck and then it's 12 gauge after that for sure. http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacity-charts
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 20:58 |
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So as long as it's 12 or larger I'm good. The panel will handle it fine, correct? Hell, one of the breakers on it isn't even hooked up to anything, so I think it should
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 21:12 |
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fknlo posted:So as long as it's 12 or larger I'm good. The panel will handle it fine, correct? Hell, one of the breakers on it isn't even hooked up to anything, so I think it should yes, if it's 12 gauge or larger (all the way from the main panel to the sub panel) you're good for a 20 amp breaker at your main panel.
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 21:14 |
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:You are not an electrician Sorry -- you said basically what I meant to ask, but had phrased poorly. My point about the 10A breakers was because I was thinking that each of the 15A could become loaded, which would put 30A on 12/2 in which would be unsafe; however I now realize the 20A breaker at the main box would simply trip in that case.
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# ? Oct 16, 2014 21:30 |
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# ? May 31, 2024 20:36 |
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Alright, before I go any further, here is the new box. Left lots of extra wire in case I hosed something up. Anything I missed? edit: Oh, and one more thing I came across during this little job. Count the open slots on the right side in the first pic and then count the number of breakers in the second. I didn't add any breakers that weren't there. fknlo fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Oct 16, 2014 |
# ? Oct 16, 2014 21:52 |