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Cernunnos posted:I honestly feel bad for the MTGO programmers. They're probably competent enough to make it work right but they're building in some relatively ancient, mostly defunct programming language aren't they? I imagine if they could start the whole thing over from scratch with a more modern language they'd have a more stable system all around and would have less trouble implementing new cards. Also they'd need to be mostly self administered rather than being completely under the thumb of another division (definitely won't happen). They had a perfectly good opportunity to start from scratch 5 years ago (maybe longer?) but they blew it. The v4 beta was significantly worse than v3 for years, with missing features, extreme resource drain, and general slowness all around. They could have scrapped the crap beta and kept v3 around until they had something functional, but they instead went ahead with v4. MTGO as it stands is an incredibly embarrassing, shameful product.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:16
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Bureaucracy rules with a fist of Red Tape. 
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V4 has some nice quality of life changes and is slightly more visually appealing, but V3 gameplay was way, way smoother and ultimately that's the entire point of the drat thing.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:24
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Hellsau posted:They had a perfectly good opportunity to start from scratch 5 years ago (maybe longer?) but they blew it. The v4 beta was significantly worse than v3 for years, with missing features, extreme resource drain, and general slowness all around. They could have scrapped the crap beta and kept v3 around until they had something functional, but they instead went ahead with v4. MTGO as it stands is an incredibly embarrassing, shameful product. And yet being able to draft on a whim is so nice. Wish they'd fix Controlling Your Opponent's turns making you incapable of placing their triggers on the stack.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:25
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The only thing MTGO has going for it is the ability to draft in your pajamas. I've been submitting compensation claims left and loving right with the new version, though. Sometimes the program lags so bad and uses up 10+ GB of RAM, I have to restart it and lose time off the clock. So sloppy.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:30
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Gyshall posted:The only thing MTGO has going for it is the ability to draft
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Oct 15, 2014 03:32
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In other MODO news, the Vintage Super League is live on Twitch, and features many people casting Treasure Cruise. If you're not into Vintage, I'm going to stream a KtK draft or two, if you're interested in having a chill time with cool friends.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:33
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Pfft. You guys play at scrubby LGSs. We start our drafts at 10:30 after all the YuGiOh kids get kicked out. 
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Oct 15, 2014 04:01
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so has treasure cruise in pauper irrevocably warped the format around it yet?
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Oct 15, 2014 06:08
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rinski posted:In other MODO news, the Vintage Super League is live on Twitch, and features many people casting Treasure Cruise. If you're not into Vintage, I'm going to stream a KtK draft or two, if you're interested in having a chill time with cool friends. I loved it when you cast Flying Crane Strike, and your opponent wiped out most of your board with Windstorm for 3. This is a great stream.
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Oct 15, 2014 06:14
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Gyshall posted:The only thing MTGO has going for it is the ability to draft in your pajamas. This is my problem. I usually have to force-close the client after two rounds of a draft and quickly  back into the client before it thinks I dropped. I just learned to restart the client after each round.
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Oct 15, 2014 06:14
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A big flaming stink posted:so has treasure cruise in pauper irrevocably warped the format around it yet? I don't know yet, Hymn being legal makes things different. Once they ban the overpowered stuff, I certainly don't want to pilot MBC against any blue deck. Gush already was good, Cruise is backbreaking and can be played in the UR and RUG Tron decks. Kind of want to play UB tapout control with four Cruises.
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Oct 15, 2014 06:26
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Today's Modern UR Delver/Cruise results while sitting in airports all day: 10-0 in sets vs burn, melira, jund, junk, mirror, ascedency I have to report that I posted 0 wins again Restore Balance so that's still a 100% loss rate, we have our new meta champ A big flaming stink posted:so has treasure cruise in *literally any format but standard* irrevocably warped the format around it yet? Why yes indeed
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Oct 15, 2014 07:24
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Wow, I've always been doubtful of delver in modern too.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:30
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Hellsau posted:I don't know yet, Hymn being legal makes things different. Once they ban the overpowered stuff, I certainly don't want to pilot MBC against any blue deck. Gush already was good, Cruise is backbreaking and can be played in the UR and RUG Tron decks. Yeah I think it will mainly put mono u ahead of mono b in control matches, but I don't think it will make a huge diff for some of the faster decks. I've been too busy to test much lately though  E: and delver variants, obviously field balm fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 08:04
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I Love You! posted:Why yes indeed Pauper has been spared from too much Treasure Cruise warping, since Wizards also unintentionally released Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Strip Mine, Merchant Scroll, and High Tide into that format.
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Oct 15, 2014 08:47
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Chamale posted:Pauper has been spared from too much Treasure Cruise warping, since Wizards also unintentionally released Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Strip Mine, Merchant Scroll, and High Tide into that format. In conclusion, the only way to save Modern and Legacy from Treasure Cruise is to unban Magic's most broken cards. We need to create a Suicide Squad of Magic.
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Oct 15, 2014 08:51
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Chamale posted:Pauper has been spared from too much Treasure Cruise warping, since Wizards also unintentionally released Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Strip Mine, Merchant Scroll, and High Tide into that format. Apparently, they're working on a patch to fix all that. So we can see what Treasure Cruise can do without actual fun cards to play with, I guess.
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Oct 15, 2014 09:15
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Cernunnos posted:I honestly feel bad for the MTGO programmers. They're probably competent enough to make it work right but they're building in some relatively ancient, mostly defunct programming language aren't they? The hilarious part is MTGO is written in C# as far as I can tell (as evidenced by them hiring C# programmers to work on it), which is a modern, healthy programming language with wide adoption and a huge community. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 09:17
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A bizarre question, but does anyone know if there was any sort of print run deal with Alpha and Beta cards in starter packs? IE could you not get certain combinations of rares or uncommons because of their relative positions on the print sheets?
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Oct 15, 2014 09:46
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Before this post, I'd like to say that I've never touched MTGO, and it's all from what I've heard from here. From what I gather, I feel that the best solution for MTGO would be to set up a second team, developing a new version of it, completely separate from the current one. Take into account weird effects (controlling opponents for example), get Judges in if there's issues in working stuff out, codify and categorize all the effects, make a good structure for the cards to avoid any issues with targeting etc. Of course this is an ideal off the top of my head, and it would take a lot of time and work, but I don't doubt that it would be a great investment for Wizards, in terms of revenue, even if we just consider how many more people would play it, at least if they make it happen in a timely manner.
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Oct 15, 2014 10:19
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Serperoth posted:Before this post, I'd like to say that I've never touched MTGO, and it's all from what I've heard from here. The basic stuff is actually not the problem on MTGO. I feel like it's working fine, as in, there's a reasonable basic system that covers the mechanics of the game pretty well. It's just that it's such a slow and laggy program, and events and new cards are buggy as poo poo to a degree that is not acceptable coming from a multi-million dollar company like Wizards of the Coast. Estimates are they pull in around $300mil/year, and Worth Wollpert stated a few years back that about a third of that is MTGO. When your service is pretty much printing money, you're poo poo out of excuses for refusing to compensate people when a big event bugs out. People are lining up to work at Wizards, and yet they can't scrape together a proper QA team and some developers that can actually make MTGO perform decently? Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 10:33
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Old cards are buggy too. Mindslaver for example.
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Oct 15, 2014 12:01
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:People are lining up to work at Wizards
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Oct 15, 2014 14:38
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Entropic posted:Are they though? Everything I've heard is that they don't offer anywhere near a competitive wage/benefits for the area, so who they end up hiring are people who are passionate about Magic but weren't good enough programmers to get a job at Amazon or Microsoft or whoever else is based in the Seattle area. I think his implication was that there would be competent individuals knocking down their door if they were paying a competitive wage.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:43
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Entropic posted:Are they though? Everything I've heard is that they don't offer anywhere near a competitive wage/benefits for the area, so who they end up hiring are people who are passionate about Magic but weren't good enough programmers to get a job at Amazon or Microsoft or whoever else is based in the Seattle area. People would be lining up to work there if the compensation was reasonable, so it is essentially a money problem.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:53
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It seems pretty obvious they need to hire more people and have better management. It sounds like a really dysfunctional shop that's very set in its ways even though those ways are obviously not working.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:57
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Olothreutes posted:A bizarre question, but does anyone know if there was any sort of print run deal with Alpha and Beta cards in starter packs? IE could you not get certain combinations of rares or uncommons because of their relative positions on the print sheets? There were certainly cards that were printed incorrectly in alpha/beta and other early sets. One of the circles of protection (red? or maybe black) wasn't available in Alpha. In arabian nights you could get a basic mountain in place of a rare because it showed up in the wrong place on a print sheet. Those are the two I recall off the top of my head. I'm not sure about print combinations.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:57
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Entropic posted:It seems pretty obvious they need to hire more people and have better management. It sounds like a really dysfunctional shop that's very set in its ways even though those ways are obviously not working. Sounds like it works just fine with the way people talk about continuing to play with it. I don't play with it myself but I assume their current model of keeping a code together with duct tape and paper clips while issuing refunds daily is the way to go if it allows them to not pay for better programmers. What I don't get is why people continue to put up with it. I tried it for a year, redeemed a set, then left.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:00
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Gotta love those Arabian Nights Mountains. 
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Oct 15, 2014 15:01
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Jabor posted:People would be lining up to work there if the compensation was reasonable, so it is essentially a money problem. Well that is sort of simplifying the issue but I am sure money would help. I honestly don't believe that money is the biggest issue with MODO. I think some key decision makers have a vision for what MODO should be that hinders their goals. 1. Paper and online need to be totally separate. Same cards, but the cord needs to be cut with being able to convert an entire set into paper. It will help drive the prices down to something that could be more popular. Its a long term choice that is better for the overall health of the game. 2. The card design team will have to design cards around limitations for both paper and modo in each card they design. From what I read they have sort of tried this but ultimately it appears the design team makes a card and says "good luck" to modo to make the mechanics work. Progress can't be changed until this does.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:08
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Toshimo posted:I think his implication was that there would be competent individuals knocking down their door if they were paying a competitive wage. Right. I mean that I don't believe the problem is a scarcity of talented individuals who would consider working for Wizards of the Coast. Either they're not offering wages that are competitive enough or they don't feel investing in engineers is worth it (which I'd strongly disagree with given the current state of MTGO). Which, really, when it comes down to it, is the same thing: not valuing technical staff highly enough. Again, when your video game business is raking in on the order of $100mil annually you'd think you would make it a priority to ensure that the drat thing runs as smoothly as possible, and be willing to make the necessary investments. Money shouldn't be a problem when you're making that kind of dosh. They should be able to pay the kinds of wages that attract people who are both passionate about Magic and skilled enough. Even just one or two good people can massively increase the quality of a product if put in the right place and given the space to work their skills. E: Sickening posted:1. Paper and online need to be totally separate. Same cards, but the cord needs to be cut with being able to convert an entire set into paper. It will help drive the prices down to something that could be more popular. Its a long term choice that is better for the overall health of the game. I think it's far too late for that and the most likely outcome would be a backlash that might just kill the platform outright instead. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 15:08
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I Love You! posted:There were certainly cards that were printed incorrectly in alpha/beta and other early sets. One of the circles of protection (red? or maybe black) wasn't available in Alpha. In arabian nights you could get a basic mountain in place of a rare because it showed up in the wrong place on a print sheet. Volcanic Island also wasn't in Alpha. Orcish Oriflamme had the wrong casting cost. One card just didn't have a casting cost. There were a lot of strange issues. As far as actual strange print issues, I don't think it was like Legends (I think?) where certain cards just weren't available in each box or in certain regions. But the printing was far from perfect. I've heard of revised starter decks that had nothing but rares. Island was in the rare slot of some packs of Alpha. I opened a Mercadian Masques pack about a year ago that didn't have a rare, and that was well after ABUR. Cernunnos posted:Gotta love those Arabian Nights Mountains. They're like the 3rd most expensive mountains out there. I have my sweet white-bordered Arabian Nights mountain, so that's close enough for me.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:11
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The previous version of MODO was developed by a midwestern software company they hired. When they decided to go back to in-house for V4, they also decided to keep the same operating budget. In Redmond Goddamned Washington. It's very hard to convince high-ranking corporate officers to spend money if the business is making money, which for now it is. EDIT: suicidesteve posted:Island was in the rare slot of some packs of Alpha. I remember reading they intentionally put an Island on the rare sheet of Antiquities to screw with people. The Arabian Nights Mountain was just a leftover from having basics in the set, I don't think it was on the rare sheet.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:14
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Chill la Chill posted:What I don't get is why people continue to put up with it. tl;dr I
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Oct 15, 2014 15:19
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I pulled a sorin on MTGO last night, and Im trying to decide whether I should flip it right now or wait to see if it'll go up in price. I'm not really much of a finance guy, any of you guys have advice?
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Oct 15, 2014 15:19
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Chill la Chill posted:Sounds like it works just fine with the way people talk about continuing to play with it. I don't play with it myself but I assume their current model of keeping a code together with duct tape and paper clips while issuing refunds daily is the way to go if it allows them to not pay for better programmers. What I don't get is why people continue to put up with it. I tried it for a year, redeemed a set, then left. People play it because magic is fun and it doesn't work so poorly that you're not getting games of magic out of it. That said it's so awful that the program works so bad that I'm just going to watch someone stream it instead of ever risking my own money and free time on a program that I know barely works.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:20
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Chill la Chill posted:Sounds like it works just fine with the way people talk about continuing to play with it. I don't play with it myself but I assume their current model of keeping a code together with duct tape and paper clips while issuing refunds daily is the way to go if it allows them to not pay for better programmers. What I don't get is why people continue to put up with it. I tried it for a year, redeemed a set, then left. Because there's nothing better currently. There are other games with better designed software, but the games themselves are not as good as Magic. I keep modo around because I like being able to draft in my pajamas on a whim. I just sell whatever I open for tickets to draft more though. I can't imagine investing in constructed formats online. Honestly if any of those free drafting sites worked better and had good ways to actually play, I'd just do that. If I could draft online for free and get zero prizes out of it, I'd be all over that. You don't even get a proper draft most of the time on any of those sites though, because people don't know what they're doing and don't care because nothing is at stake.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:23
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I put up with Magic: the Gathering Online because I like playing Magic: The Gathering online. That's really it. The program works fine enough for me that I can deal with random issues here and there and have other better things to lose sleep over, and I never play any of the large events that seem to cause the biggest headaches when they completely bomb.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:30
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Chill la Chill posted:Sounds like it works just fine with the way people talk about continuing to play with it. I don't play with it myself but I assume their current model of keeping a code together with duct tape and paper clips while issuing refunds daily is the way to go if it allows them to not pay for better programmers. What I don't get is why people continue to put up with it. I tried it for a year, redeemed a set, then left. Well, the alternative would be to play magic with other people and nobody wants to do that either! I Love You! posted:There were certainly cards that were printed incorrectly in alpha/beta and other early sets. One of the circles of protection (red? or maybe black) wasn't available in Alpha. In arabian nights you could get a basic mountain in place of a rare because it showed up in the wrong place on a print sheet. Volcanic Island wasn't printed in Alpha.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:34
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A proper MODO client with current-set phantom drafts bracketed by ELO would make Wizards the Unisputed King of Online Microtransaction Games. Like, they'd have so much money they'd have to build a Bin. But somewhere in the poo poo-tastic hellmouth that is their management structure, they've decided they are just making way to much money and have too much customer goodwill, so they feel the need to piss both down the drain. I can't be arsed to look it up, but a year or two ago, in the midst of one of the most severe MODO tournament implosions, there was a post here from someone in the Seattle area describing a WotC Rep showing up at an FNM trying desperately to recruit some C++ (C#?) programmers or some such and getting laughed out of the store when people saw the compensation. There isn't a single portion of this debacle that everyone involved (from WotC, to players, to competitors) isn't keenly aware of. The only thing that remains unclear is why WotC continues to operate in this fashion when they have the means and motive to correct it.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:36
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