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Evil Fluffy posted:I find it funny you say DQ isn't for nerds when the game was inspired by things like Wizardry, Bard's Tale, and D&D.
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Oct 10, 2014 13:11
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Evil Fluffy posted:The difference is that RPGs have gotten more indepth over time(FF13 excluded). The FPS genre has actively lobotomized its design to the point that when a shooter doesn't have shields and regen as a built in thing it's touted as a novelty. When people talk about running forward and nothing else that's not a joke. There might be twists and turns or stairs and ladders but those games are a one way street. Borderlands would be closer to old design. Thank you; that's the point I wanted to make, you just said it much better. I'm no stranger to silly shooters, and I fancy a bit of TF2 now and again, which is the height of silly... as would be any game where an Australian with a comically oversized rifle throws jars of his own wee at people. I think that marketing a hypothetical NA/EU/AU localisation of 7 would come down to, as said below, advertising it as a fun adventure game for peoples, and not ANOTHER DQ GAAAAAME!!! I don't expect 7-digit sales, but I don't think that they would do 20k sold if they made any effort. Everyone might buy the next CoD game, but they also market the poo poo out of each one. YggiDee posted:An Action Replay can unlock all of the quests and the visitors. You can't use it to 'activate' the online store or anything, though I imagine there exists various 'give item' codes of one type or other. Very interesting. I shall keep this in mind.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:22
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It's weird to me that Dragon Quest 10 is a thing that no one in this thread seems to talk about and there isn't the volume of info I'd expect for a DQ game online. I know it's JP only and a few years old - has anyone here played it? Is it any good, or did it bomb? Is DQ11 going to be the same deal? I guess it's akin to FF11 and 14 being the "black sheep" and I didn't love DQ9 but I still might've expected more discussion. Is it even played much over there anymore?
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Oct 10, 2014 21:26
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Evil Fluffy posted:I find it funny you say DQ isn't for nerds when the game was inspired by things like Wizardry, Bard's Tale, and D&D. That's precisely it, though: Yuji Horii's goal was to simplify Wizardry, Ultima, etc. to make a simpler, more accessible game for the common man (and Japanese children). It was a conscious decision to take something only people as nerdy as he was knew about it and turn it into something anyone could play.
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Oct 10, 2014 21:39
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Electromax posted:I know it's JP only and a few years old - has anyone here played it? Is it any good, or did it bomb? Is DQ11 going to be the same deal? I played a few hours of it. It's good, and does a fine job of transplanting DQ battles into an MMO. It's fairly popular over there, especially with the younger players (having the kid's time thing helps and is a stroke of genius). Hori has said that DQXI will be a regular DQ game and also not for phones.
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Oct 10, 2014 23:35
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DQXI, an Xbone exclusive brought to you with our partners at Microsoft.
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Oct 11, 2014 00:59
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Nickoten posted:That's precisely it, though: Yuji Horii's goal was to simplify Wizardry, Ultima, etc. to make a simpler, more accessible game for the common man (and Japanese children). It was a conscious decision to take something only people as nerdy as he was knew about it and turn it into something anyone could play. DQ came from Wizardry, Ultima, etc., Horii's own experience in writing adventure games and a simple fairy tale / shounen manga plot. His other angle was to create a Legend of Zelda kind of game that doesn't rely on reflexes (turn-based combat) and such and anyone can beat (comparatively minor penalty for dying) if they stick to it (grinding).
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Oct 11, 2014 07:20
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rvm posted:DQ came from Wizardry, Ultima, etc., Horii's own experience in writing adventure games and a simple fairy tale / shounen manga plot. His other angle was to create a Legend of Zelda kind of game that doesn't rely on reflexes (turn-based combat) and such and anyone can beat (comparatively minor penalty for dying) if they stick to it (grinding). Yep. That's also why DQ games are one of the few, if not the only, JRPGs that let you keep everything but half your gold when you die. Instead of having to revert to your last save, which the ultima/wizardry games did, and most JRPGs even do now (SMT, FF, etc), you resurrect with 1/2 of your gold and all the items you have looted.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:07
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Fenrir posted:Yep. That's also why DQ games are one of the few, if not the only, JRPGs that let you keep everything but half your gold when you die. Instead of having to revert to your last save, which the ultima/wizardry games did, and most JRPGs even do now (SMT, FF, etc), you resurrect with 1/2 of your gold and all the items you have looted. I appreciate that quite a lot. After the cave of Rhone in DQ2, that's a godsend. By that point, money means nothing but the Cave is brutal and there are some major treasures in it, so you can get a key item, die, lose nothing of value, then start again. Still frustrating, arbitrary and vicious, but not nearly as much as it could be. You need to keep a bit for resurections, though, since only the hero gets raised after a party wipe and he has no spells, unless you can get to the shrine past Rhone where it's free heals all the time.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:01
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Fenrir posted:Yep. That's also why DQ games are one of the few, if not the only, JRPGs that let you keep everything but half your gold when you die. Instead of having to revert to your last save, which the ultima/wizardry games did, and most JRPGs even do now (SMT, FF, etc), you resurrect with 1/2 of your gold and all the items you have looted. I've always loved this.
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Oct 11, 2014 19:17
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Its definitely one of the better features in a rpg especially since I'm not a kid anymore with unlimited time to goof off and play games. I'm especially fond of SMT IV's approach too; where you bribe Charon to let you live and you'll only get a permanent gameover if you're in debt to him.
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Oct 11, 2014 19:58
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Yeah, the soft failure state is one of my most appreciated elements of Dragon Quest. No need to worry about getting in over your head, just prepare before wandering into the unknown (spend/bank all of your money) and you can't end any worse than you started. Very conducive to exploration and adventure. I wish other more open game series like The Elder Scrolls would adopt a similar feature as a more fundamental mechanic. Heck, even the Souls games have the same thing going, but instead of just taking half of your 'money', it simply puts your 'money' on the table and gives you one shot to go get it back.
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Oct 12, 2014 05:25
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BabyRyoga posted:Well yeah, there are other phases to localization. I'm just implying that as far as an RPG type game goes, Dragon Quest games seem like they should be vastly easier to localize because the translation phase requires far less work when there is lack of voice acting to worry about, and many streamlined elements in each game. Now, the best way to do this would be to have the same team work on many different games at once, for the sake of consistency and familiarity. I suppose the process doesn't go quite as smoothly if roles changed each title. This has already been covered but I would like to remind you that people who have actually localised DQ games in the past are telling you how wrong you are so please stop. Himuro posted:DQIX did real well for what it was. It seems to me, the 2d DQ's are the ones that westerners just can't get into. Maybe since DQ7 3ds is in 3d it'd sell more with a decent ad campaign to get thirsty Jrpg fans off their butts. It's not a 2D/3D thing, it's a "Nintendo promoted the absolute poo poo of of DQ9" thing. The other games they released after DQ9 (DQ6, DQM2) were flops. A big part of why S-E hasn't localised any of the 3DS games is that they've fallen into the habit of waiting for Nintendo to grease their wheels, but NOA/E has moved on. The DQ producer did recently say that the prospects of DQ7 being released internationally have moved from "no way" to "maybe this is something we should look into", which is better than nothing, I suppose. rvm posted:DQ came from Wizardry, Ultima, etc., Horii's own experience in writing adventure games and a simple fairy tale / shounen manga plot. His other angle was to create a Legend of Zelda kind of game that doesn't rely on reflexes (turn-based combat) and such and anyone can beat (comparatively minor penalty for dying) if they stick to it (grinding). DQ definitely wasn't directly reacting to Zelda, there's only a couple months between them. I daresay it was more influenced by Tower of Druaga or whatever, but that game sucks and the fewer games that reference it, the better. Miyamoto/Zelda's whole shtick was "Ultima is fun but imagine how much more fun it'd be if you were actually doing things instead of just selecting them from a menu".
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Oct 12, 2014 05:56
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:It's not a 2D/3D thing, it's a "Nintendo promoted the absolute poo poo of of DQ9" thing. The other games they released after DQ9 (DQ6, DQM2) were flops. You are forgetting DQVIII which I'm also factoring into my 3d DQ idea. 3d main entry DQ's seem to get lots of advertising in the west. The 2d games don't.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:34
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The 3D games were also new entries and not remakes.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:58
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:The 3D games were also new entries and not remakes. That's basically what I was saying though? Most DQ's are 2d. Thus, most DQ's that are remade are 2d, or with 2d with 3d backgrounds. DQ's that are 3d tend to be new entries, they also sell well due to a higher advertising budget. The 2d games (remakes) pretty much are never advertised. Why? Because they're 2d and have a limited appeal. Since DQVII's remake is 3d - and not 2d - they could take a risk and give a decent advertising bump - at least on par with Bravely Default's. Final Fantasy operates in a similar fashion. The 2d remakes are rarely ever given much of a blip at all, but they'll make a huge deal out of Final Fantasy IV's 3d remake, as well as new 3d entries. I have not seen any evidence to support outside of Poke'mon that the west LIKES 2d jrpgs outside of an already niche audience.
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Oct 12, 2014 07:45
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Kiggles posted:Yeah, the soft failure state is one of my most appreciated elements of Dragon Quest. No need to worry about getting in over your head, just prepare before wandering into the unknown (spend/bank all of your money) and you can't end any worse than you started. Very conducive to exploration and adventure. I wish other more open game series like The Elder Scrolls would adopt a similar feature as a more fundamental mechanic. Heck, even the Souls games have the same thing going, but instead of just taking half of your 'money', it simply puts your 'money' on the table and gives you one shot to go get it back. The Pokemon and Mother series do this as well, and I think Final Fantasy VI does something similar. Losing an hour's worth of grinding by having your party killed might make the game more tense and challenging, but it sure makes it difficult to want to play it again.
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Oct 12, 2014 18:21
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Most modern JRPGs have so many save points that it's basically impossible to lose any significant progress, and some take it further and let you save anywhere and also retry immediately battles you lose.
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Oct 12, 2014 18:38
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That loving Sned posted:The Pokemon and Mother series do this as well, and I think Final Fantasy VI does something similar. Losing an hour's worth of grinding by having your party killed might make the game more tense and challenging, but it sure makes it difficult to want to play it again. FF6 does different things depending on the version. SNES - when you die you go back to your last save point with all the XP you gained but everything else is what you saved at. (a neat idea) PSX - seemed like when you die you just have to restart fully from the last save. I quit before I got sabin because gently caress those load times. GBA - You don't keep XP but apparently you keep stat gains from leveling with Espers? Which is even more hilariously broken than just keeping XP.
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Oct 12, 2014 19:22
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FF6 (and most Final Fantasies) allow you to save and fully restore your health with tents/cottages/etc. within dungeons, though. So rather than having you die and then try again with all the stuff you gained, the games give you smaller-sized challenges to complete using all of your HP/MP. I think both approaches are forgiving in their own way.
Nickoten fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 12, 2014 |
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Oct 12, 2014 21:33
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Himuro posted:That's basically what I was saying though? Most DQ's are 2d. Thus, most DQ's that are remade are 2d, or with 2d with 3d backgrounds. DQ's that are 3d tend to be new entries, they also sell well due to a higher advertising budget. The 2d games (remakes) pretty much are never advertised. Why? Because they're 2d and have a limited appeal. Since DQVII's remake is 3d - and not 2d - they could take a risk and give a decent advertising bump - at least on par with Bravely Default's. Final Fantasy operates in a similar fashion. The 2d remakes are rarely ever given much of a blip at all, but they'll make a huge deal out of Final Fantasy IV's 3d remake, as well as new 3d entries. I still don't think it's a strictly 2D/3D thing or that mass audiences are necessarily that picky, but it's not as if anyone's making big 2D RPGs anymore so we'll never find out for sure. I daresay the change in marketing with DQ8 comes from the fact that Square was in the picture by then and they had the network/budget to really push that game, whereas Enix USA seemed to struggle to get anything done at all.
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Oct 13, 2014 00:41
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:I daresay the change in marketing with DQ8 comes from the fact that Square was in the picture by then and they had the network/budget to really push that game, whereas Enix USA seemed to struggle to get anything done at all. You got that right. Enix USA never had enough money, compounded by the fact that management itself was extremely short-sighted and not sympathetic to any ideas involving money. Also, dude, supply me your email address so I can buy you a Platinum upgrade.
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Oct 13, 2014 01:00
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Endorph posted:Most modern JRPGs have so many save points that it's basically impossible to lose any significant progress, and some take it further and let you save anywhere and also retry immediately battles you lose. The problem with this, is simply continuity, and that design tends to reflect on itself. Take TES, and the tendency to just save scum is way high. Lot of encounters aren't really designed to be taken organically, but again, via save scums when you're left guessing whether a humanoid NPC is level 5 or 30. Dragon Quest has to operate on the assumption that the player HAS NOT saved in a long while, but that the failure state is otherwise fairly soft. We end up with fairly beefy dungeons, and bosses designed to stretch the player's resources to the limit. The result is, the player is both confident enough to keep going forward, but simultaneously tempted to warp back to down and blow some of the gold that has been accumulating in the mean time. On the one hand, you might save some time by just going right after the obvious boss fight. On the other, you might have to 'waste' the time running back anyway, so you might not waste the gold. Either way, its very organic and keeps you in the game. It maintains suspense by remaining somewhat punishing, though it is a very mild slap on the wrist in the contest of resources in-game. Enter TES and you just sort tap quick save after every encounter/before you step into an encounter. Then beat your head against the wall until said encounter goes the way you want it to. There is little suspense. You're not making decisions in the context of the game world. You're just changing history. It's not only a matter of saving the player time. Save anywhere plus some autosaving is the best solution for that. It doesn't keep the audience in the game, however, and it tends to reflect negatively on the rest of the design since it is assumed the player never has to replay anything. Heck, even Grand Theft Auto uses some soft failure states, and I find it the better because of it. It's all about keeping the player in the game with carefully designed challenges, opposed to a system that leaves your audience with options other than beating their head against the wall. Technically, TES does give the player option to just leave, but since the system is not particularly organic, the "in-game" decision to turn around just doesn't make any sense; it's utterly meta.
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Oct 13, 2014 04:11
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So, I'm playing DQ7 now and I've just cleared what I can only describe as JRPG Hell. But payoff was worth it. That was a bold move to introduce the defining feature of the game more than 24 hours in, I must say. But all and all, I'm really enjoying it (it was funny, for instance, how they set up disaster flags for the fishing trip in the beginning, but then everything went smoothly). Also, usual Horii's combination of wacky humor and soul crashing tragedy and I have a feeling I haven't seen anything yet.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:08
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rvm posted:So, I'm playing DQ7 now and I've just cleared what I can only describe as JRPG Hell. But payoff was worth it. That was a bold move to introduce the defining feature of the game more than 24 hours in, I must say. But all and all, I'm really enjoying it (it was funny, for instance, how they set up disaster flags for the fishing trip in the beginning, but then everything went smoothly). Also, usual Horii's combination of wacky humor and soul crashing tragedy and I have a feeling I haven't seen anything yet. So I guess you just got done with Dharma, AKA literally the worst part? loving game double-loving you out of combat power
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Oct 14, 2014 22:36
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Shugojin posted:So I guess you just got done with Dharma, AKA literally the worst part? Yeah... First that little poo poo Kiefer, my hardest hitter, abandoned his friends, his kingdom, not to mention his family to his teenage crush (maybe, leaving a mission to save the world to 16 year olds isn't such a good idea after all, huh?). Then... oh boy, I don't even want to talk about that next part. I was traumatized. In other news, Teen Idol is awesome. Hustle and Backflip are amazing.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:19
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Yeah, Hustle is just a great skill. 0-MP full party heal spell? Don't mind if I do!
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Oct 15, 2014 18:29
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Having a party member that can use Hustle is one of those milestones that cuts a lot of of difficulty. Getting QuadHits on your melee characters is the same as is getting Explodet, aka "gently caress random encounters forever", on a sage.
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Oct 15, 2014 21:53
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One of the Goof Off jokes in DQ7 is "Cannibox do the Hustle? No, it doesn't have Defeat for it" and that is the pinnacle of Dragon Quest-related humor.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:34
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TurnipFritter posted:One of the Goof Off jokes in DQ7 is "Cannibox do the Hustle? No, it doesn't have Defeat for it" and that is the pinnacle of Dragon Quest-related humor. That is truly the best.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:39
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TurnipFritter posted:One of the Goof Off jokes in DQ7 is "Cannibox do the Hustle? No, it doesn't have Defeat for it" and that is the pinnacle of Dragon Quest-related humor. That's amazing. 
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Oct 15, 2014 22:46
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TurnipFritter posted:One of the Goof Off jokes in DQ7 is "Cannibox do the Hustle? No, it doesn't have Defeat for it" and that is the pinnacle of Dragon Quest-related humor. Pack it up boys, we're done here.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:46
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I wrote around 70 of those idiotic gags over a weekend for $300 since the original translator made a total mess of them.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:50
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Doug Dinsdale posted:I wrote around 70 of those idiotic gags over a weekend for $300 since the original translator made a total mess of them. That is probably the peak of your career just saying.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:51
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Doug Dinsdale posted:I wrote around 70 of those idiotic gags over a weekend for $300 since the original translator made a total mess of them. You should've gotten $300 for just that one.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:52
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I'm pretty certain the pinnacle of my career was Life Line. Or maybe RAD.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:55
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Does Life Line work any better in Japanese?
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Oct 15, 2014 22:58
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Doug Dinsdale posted:I'm pretty certain the pinnacle of my career was Life Line. Or maybe RAD. RAD was seriously an amazing game. 
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Oct 15, 2014 23:00
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Doug Dinsdale posted:I wrote around 70 of those idiotic gags over a weekend for $300 since the original translator made a total mess of them. Can I buy you a beer sometime?
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Oct 15, 2014 23:50
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Doug Dinsdale posted:I wrote around 70 of those idiotic gags over a weekend for $300 since the original translator made a total mess of them. Do you remember some of the most mangled ones, or are they lost to time?
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Oct 15, 2014 23:51
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