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Mahoning posted:I'm just curious what you guys think is a better real estate business model. And before you answer that just remind yourself that you are not the average home buyer or seller and that most people will want some form of assistance. I want more choices, perhaps with clearly defined tiers. Some tiers might be commission based, some might be an hourly fee. There might be optional add-ons too! Take more advantage of the people who make you work and make your job suck and work with the people who just need a club membership card that takes an hour of your time. Start getting paid for your work and what you accomplish rather than for closing deals. Buyer tiers: Bronze tier: $50/hr on-call during business hours, $75/hr evenings, no nights. No comparisons, no offer advice, no help other than getting people in the door and taking their offers to the other agent and conveying that information back to the buyer. All of the commission for a buyer's agent is conveyed in full to the buyer. Silver tier: $50/hr on-call during business hours and evenings, no nights. 5 comparisons and offer advice on up to 3 properties provided. 50% of the commission for a buyer's agent is conveyed to the buyer. Gold tier: $25/hr on-call during business hours and evenings, $100/hr on-call all other times. Comprehensive comparisons and offer advice on up to 5 properties included. Hands will be held if needed and tears will be dried. 25% of the commission for a buyer's agent is conveyed to the buyer. Platinum tier: $50/hr massage with happy ending. All other services included. All of the buyer's commission is kept by the agent.
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Oct 16, 2014 03:51
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Mahoning posted:But if magically Realtors ceased to exist tomorrow, home prices would still be based on fair market value. Your home is worth what you can sell it for on an open market. If it's appraised at $250.000 and costs 6% to sell, it's worth $235.000 to me. By your logic my Roth IRA is worth the same as my traditional IRA if their balances are the same. Essentially, what's happening is I've got to find someone who thinks my house is worth $15,000 more than I'm willing to sell for in order to complete the transaction. A smart FSBO seller would price their home halfway between 94% and 100% of what it would go for in a realtor transaction. Mahoning posted:But like I said before, I came in here to help and you guys all seem to know a lot about the real estate transaction process and I am offering free advice to further your knowledge so the next time you buy or sell a home you can properly gently caress over any agent that tries to pretend you don't know what you're talking about. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 03:54
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Bring it, you know we want the inside scoop :> It's a good question, what would be a better business model? A buyer needs legal advice - which an agent can't give but also won't usually advise (why not?). But a buyer may also need, well, an agent, to handle nitty gritty that they don't want to deal with themselves - a negotiated fee seems reasonable for that. Some buyers' agents offer that already, right? As for the selling agent, again the general principle of using an agent is fine but, what is that agent providing? Is it clear in the listing agreement? Will the listing agent state to an unrepresented buyer that they have duty to the seller, not the buyer? Typical or standard contracts are fine, but currently the agents' incentives aren't aligned with the interests of the principals and transparency is markedly absent.
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Oct 16, 2014 03:57
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baquerd posted:I want more choices, perhaps with clearly defined tiers. Some tiers might be commission based, some might be an hourly fee. There might be optional add-ons too! Take more advantage of the people who make you work and make your job suck and work with the people who just need a club membership card that takes an hour of your time. Start getting paid for your work and what you accomplish rather than for closing deals. I actually like this idea, to be honest.
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Oct 16, 2014 03:58
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slap me silly posted:Bring it, you know we want the inside scoop :> The bolded question is a very good question. In Ohio, an Agency Disclosure Statement is required by law in every transaction involving an agent. It clearly spells out who represents who in the transaction.
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Oct 16, 2014 04:01
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slap me silly posted:Bring it, you know we want the inside scoop :> The whole buying side should be handled by RE attorneys who charge a flat or hourly fee for the transaction or attempted transaction. Now the buyer doesn't have someone being incentivized counter to their interests. Sellers agents are getting incentives in line with the seller's interest. (For the most part) E: and I apologize for my harsh tone. I've spent the last 5 years battling, avoiding being screwed by and despising Realtors. It's like posting in the Occupy Wall Street thread (when that was a thing) that you're a stock broker. Bloody Queef fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 04:02
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I'd suggest many of you that have had terrible experiences with Realtors, find a licensed broker in your area that will deal with you directly and is willing to negotiate. It might take a bit of work to find but I think you'd be surprised how much is negotiable when you're dealing with a broker who can do whatever the gently caress they want. An agent won't be much help in the negotiable fee department because they are largely bound by what their broker requires them to charge. I mean, I know if I were allowed, and one of you guys came up to me and asked me to simply do a few things for a flat fee and you'd take care of the rest, I'd be absolutely thrilled. edit: My other suggestion would be to find this person long before you actually need them. Mahoning fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 04:19
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Mahoning posted:And why the hell would any buyer save money by not using a listing agent? The agreement to pay a commission is between the listing agent and the homeowner. It has ZERO to do with the buyer at all. What you're basically saying is that a buyer should be able to save 3% on the purchase of their home simply because they didn't use an agent. But it is not as if the buyer would be paying that otherwise. The seller already agreed in writing to pay 6%, the buyer doesn't get to decide poo poo. This isn't true. I know that you're a realtor, but like you say, everything is negotiable. My parents bought their most recent home without a real estate agent and they were successful in negotiating with the seller to get the standard 6% commission reduced to 3%, which helped them to negotiate a lower sale price as a result (since the seller was going to be keeping a greater percentage, while the seller's agent was making approximately the same amount) That said, the agent that is helping me with my first home purchase is awesome and has really gone out of her way to make us happy, so it's not like I'm opposed to the idea of having a buyer's agent. She has definitely helped us to better understand some of the purchasing details that are unique to our area
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Oct 16, 2014 07:07
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The principal-agent problem is why I will never be able to trust a real estate agent as long as the current fee structure exists (this is also why I will never be able to trust a financial advisor). The commission based structure is inherently broken and will almost never result in the real estate agent acting in the client's best interest even if they have the best of intentions. Psychology has demonstrated this over and over - it's inevitable and even if it doesn't happen in every case it happens in enough cases to be a problem.
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Oct 16, 2014 07:10
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Rurutia posted:I don't think anyone is here to attack you personally, like many people have said, we appreciate you answering questions giving us your perspective. But your arguments for the anti-competitive practices is going to be met with resistance and honestly does come off like you'd drunk the kool-aid. You should probably accept that we're coming from two competing perspectives so that will happen. For example just in this quote you said "Although, the fact that salaries are based on cost of living, which is in turn based on property values, I think its a bit naive to think that if Realtors ceased to exist that all property values would suddenly drop 6% and there would be no negative ramifications" is something that no one has said. Sure, it's probably something in between 0-6%, but I find it pretty incredulous to remotely suggest that the 6% transaction cost has significant effect size on salary, which then makes the point moot. acetcx posted:The principal-agent problem is why I will never be able to trust a real estate agent as long as the current fee structure exists (this is also why I will never be able to trust a financial advisor). The commission based structure is inherently broken and will almost never result in the real estate agent acting in the client's best interest even if they have the best of intentions. Psychology has demonstrated this over and over - it's inevitable and even if it doesn't happen in every case it happens in enough cases to be a problem. Yep. Consider the following problem. A seller's agent receives an offer for $200k two days after listing at $210k. The seller asks the agent for advice. What does the agent advise the seller? The agent can "earn" their $6k today (3% of $200k), or hold out for a few months or weeks to sell at list price and pull $6,300? If the agent holds out, the seller stands to take away another $9,400 from the transaction, while the seller's agent only takes away an extra $300. The seller's agent is going to tell you every time to take the offer. They're going to tell you to take the cash offer that's 5% less than the offer from buyers with an FHA loan, because they'd rather get paid today than risk the transaction falling through even though it means thousands of dollars of missed opportunity to the seller. There's huge incentive to close an adequate deal rather than get the best deal for their client. What about as a buyer? The agent doesn't want you to submit competitive offers on a dozen different houses that all fit your needs. They want you to fall in love with a house and overpay for it, so you close a deal! Why do 12x the work? They're going to "recommend" a home inspector who can get some deals closed. For most people, a house is the most expensive purchase they ever make in their lifetime. For everyone else, it's a car. And, what do you know, people buy and sell cars to each other without dealers all the time! Both new car dealerships and realtors are dinosaur business models held in place by their own lobbying. I can't wait until they're gone forever.
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Oct 16, 2014 07:52
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Wow, this thread just turned into a useless debate about the politics of the real estate industry.
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Oct 16, 2014 13:26
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Finally closing today (mine got delayed two weeks to fit in with the theme of the thread). Somebody said before that home depot honors Lowe's coupons, anyone know if that's still true?
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Oct 16, 2014 14:46
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If you don't like paying a heap of money for a buyer's agent to do little more than unlock a single door, have them unlock many doors. I maximized whatever commission I was paying by looking at a bunch of homes over a period of about nine months. I'd say I was easily in 75 homes during that time. I had no intention on writing an offer on a vast majority of them, often I just wanted to have a better look at some interesting structural thing. If I did find something acceptable, I'd have the agent write up a low offer and run around doing whatever to try to make that work. If the offer was rejected, I didn't care. Eventually one would be (and was) accepted. So if you want to see things change to an hourly system, incentivize your agents to lobby their organization for it because it sure won't change if left to the status quo.
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Oct 16, 2014 15:10
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Antifreeze Head posted:If you don't like paying a heap of money for a buyer's agent to do little more than unlock a single door, have them unlock many doors. But I value my time. Your scheme wasted a shitload of yours. It's not about the time the buyer's agent spends on you it's the value they add. Which in your case was still basically zero.
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Oct 16, 2014 15:20
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kitten posted:Finally closing today (mine got delayed two weeks to fit in with the theme of the thread). Somebody said before that home depot honors Lowe's coupons, anyone know if that's still true? From everything I've heard, yes they do. Also, as to not poo poo up the thread any more than I already have, I won't be commenting or responding to complaints about the real estate industry. But feel free to ask me whatever else.
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Oct 16, 2014 15:40
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Bloody Queef posted:But I value my time. Your scheme wasted a shitload of yours. It's not about the time the buyer's agent spends on you it's the value they add. Which in your case was still basically zero. I didn't waste time, there was still something in the house I was looking at I wanted to see, I just didn't want to buy it. But if I said "I want to check out that brick work because it is something I'd like to port into my house, come waste your time with me" or "I want a closer look at the outright mess this person made of a renovation" nobody would do it.
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Oct 16, 2014 15:41
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kitten posted:Finally closing today (mine got delayed two weeks to fit in with the theme of the thread). Somebody said before that home depot honors Lowe's coupons, anyone know if that's still true? They will honor those moving coupons but the discount maxes out at $50, not $500 like it says on the Lowe's coupon. We tried to buy about $3k of flooring, tools and things when we found that out.
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Oct 16, 2014 17:17
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We get charged 5% here in California for commissions. I did have a good experience with my last sales agent and used her to buy the next place. I do feel she did get pushed around by a broker that played us along* on a place I really wanted, but overall felt I was served well. *went to see place right before an open house, met the owner......wrote up an offer and the broker sat on it and said "oh, I'm having the open house then waiting 3 days to present any offers to the owner" then came back with a counter, that I quickly matched, then came back and said "OH SORRY sold to cash buyer!" which I assume the broker was stringing along the entire time.
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Oct 16, 2014 17:47
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Keyser S0ze posted:We get charged 5% here in California for commissions. I did have a good experience with my last sales agent and used her to buy the next place. I do feel she did get pushed around by a broker that played us along* on a place I really wanted, but overall felt I was served well. You can file a complaint against that broker. Agents are required to present all offers as soon as possible and they don't get to decide on their own (if that is indeed what happened) when to present the offer. You file a complaint with the state division of real estate. If that fails, file an ethics complaint with the local board of Realtors. Doesn't cost you anything.
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Oct 16, 2014 18:20
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kitten posted:Finally closing today (mine got delayed two weeks to fit in with the theme of the thread). Somebody said before that home depot honors Lowe's coupons, anyone know if that's still true? Probably varies from store to store, but we were able to get a Lowe's coupon honored at Home Depot (which was great, since we wanted Behr paint, which only sells through HD).
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Oct 16, 2014 21:52
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Mahoning posted:You can file a complaint against that broker. Agents are required to present all offers as soon as possible and they don't get to decide on their own (if that is indeed what happened) when to present the offer. Oh, it definitely happened he said as much in his phone call to my agent (about waiting to present offers to the owner after the weekend, etc) and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even bother presenting my counter - as he just wanted to make sure the sellers would take the cash deal. It ended up closing only 2 weeks faster than mine would have been too, so whatever. My initial offer was also over asking price and my counter ended up being $10k over what it ended up selling for. If the owners were only interested in cash offers, why even bother countering my initial offer? My agent wrote the little twerp a nasty email, not sure I care about filing a complaint but perhaps I will.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:07
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wintermuteCF posted:Probably varies from store to store, but we were able to get a Lowe's coupon honored at Home Depot (which was great, since we wanted Behr paint, which only sells through HD). I've become a convert to and evangelist for Dunn Edwards Sparta Zero Low VOC paint as the greatest interior paint I've ever used. If you just ask for it, they'll give you contractor pricing. Also, does filing a complaint with a real estate board actually do anything? What's the followup?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:23
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What's so great about that paint? I need to do a shitload of painting soon.
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Oct 16, 2014 23:31
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canyoneer posted:
Yeah, people get fined all the time. If they broke real estate law, the state does not gently caress around and they aren't afraid to strip someone of their license if they have multiple complaints. I'm pretty sure that in Ohio it's a state law that offers must be presented as soon as possible. Filling a complaint with the board might not do much, but if they've had enough complaints about a certain agent they'll kick them out of the board. That pretty much fucks them because they can no longer access the MLS.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:02
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Closing on a house tomorrow, did our walkthrough this evening. We've been pushing the sellers for documentation in regards to a foundation repair that they said was "professional done, epoxy". They've never given us documentation on this repair specifically and during the walkthrough today we noticed they slathered on some DIY sealant crap on this one crack. I'm guessing water was still coming in and they hoped a quick repair would mask it before closing. 1. They lied about the repair being done professionally 2. Tried to do another repair between our inspection and the walkthrough today. Contract in Ohio specifically states any major alterations or repairs must be approved by the buyers in writing. That never happened. 3. Fortunately we have photos of this crack with no additional repair we took ourselves during prior walkthroughs, as well as a photo in our inspection report that called it out for possible mold... but shows the prior state clearly. Closing is planned for 4PM tomorrow, although now have obviously demanded when the repair was done, why it was done and documentation in regards to the original repair they outlined in the disclosure form. The section specifically calls out that this type of item can also allow the buyer back out of the contract. Its an issue boarding on fraud in terms of severity and they painted themselves into a corner. Really pissed to say the least, but not really sure what to do now. If we accept it as is, we have to deal with whatever possible hidden crap there is that was exposed late in this stage. If we demand proper repair or compensation, underwriting and the appraisal of the home is up in the air and closing can't take place as planned. No matter how fast the bank works, it would need to get approved all over again.
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Oct 17, 2014 01:50
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Mahoning, thanks for your comments so far - having subject experts always makes these threads a ton more interesting to read. I'd like to get your opinion on being a buyer who doesn't use a buyer's agent. Basically I do most of my research online, then do a drive-by of the property on my own to see how it looks in person, and then if I'm still interested I contact the listing agent to do a walk-thru. If things get serious after that I have my own lawyer with a real estate specialty look over the paperwork before making an offer. My reason behind not using a buyer's agent is that (A) my past experience with buyer's agents is that they want you to just please loving buy something now rather than wait for a property that is a truly good match to come along, and (B) I think/hope that this turns the seller's agent to my side a bit since they are going to get the entire commission if the home sells to me so they might tend to "help" the seller see their way to accepting a lower offer. The downside is that I might miss out on a few deals that get closed before the property ever gets publicly listed but I'm not in a particularly hot market area and in no particular hurry (month-to-month apartment lease) so I'm OK with it. I've also bought/sold one home before so this isn't my first trip to this particular rodeo. Does that sound like a reasonable strategy or is there something I'm missing out on?
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Oct 17, 2014 02:28
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daslog posted:Wow, this thread just turned into a useless debate about the politics of the real estate industry. No poo poo. You can always count on goons to eventually gently caress up even the most innocuous thread by getting into some retarded slapfight.
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Oct 17, 2014 02:38
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^^^ And you can count on other goons showing up to do nothing but bitch about said slapfight, making the thread even shittier in the processkitten posted:Finally closing today (mine got delayed two weeks to fit in with the theme of the thread). Somebody said before that home depot honors Lowe's coupons, anyone know if that's still true? It's true, and the vice versa is true, too, but ymmv in both cases. They'll even sometimes accept expired coupons
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Oct 17, 2014 02:57
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QuarkJets posted:^^^ And you can count on other goons showing up to do nothing but bitch about said slapfight, making the thread even shittier in the process Sorry if I don't like wading through a page of neckbeards sperging out to get to some useful information, you loving idiot.
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Oct 17, 2014 03:13
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PDP-1 posted:Mahoning, thanks for your comments so far - having subject experts always makes these threads a ton more interesting to read. Try to find an agent that will sign a limited service contract with you. Keep calling or asking around until you find one that knows what it is. Basically you both sign a form where they waive their duties. Then you'll have to sign some sort of separate agreement to compensate him or her. Whatever you're comfortable with. Maybe $150 or 250 upon closing? No idea, just thinking about what I'd probably accept. The only real work they'll be doing is setting up a saved search for you on the MLS and letting you know of any upcoming or pocket listings they might have. It's an easy job so they shouldn't collect a full commission, but they are providing you a service where you'll receive new listings at the same rate as people represented by agents. I wouldn't necessarily consider the listing agent your friend in this circumstance though. While you're right in that they want you to buy it because they'll collect the whole commission, being a dual agent is a nearly impossible thing to do fairly. In that instance they are not looking out for your best interest. The best thing I can tell you is to stay informed. Most realtors are idiots and if you know the law and you know how to negotiate, you'll probably walk all over them. But you don't want to piss them off obviously. Always ask to present all offers in person to the seller. Make sure the agent isn't poisoning your words before feeding them to the buyer. After you've seen it, if you want to make an offer, stop by the house while the seller is home and introduce yourself. Tell the seller how much you love their home and why you're buying it. If you knocked up your girlfriend and you want to raise your kids there, tell them. That poo poo sounds cliche but it works. You never want them to think you're just a name on a piece of paper.
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Oct 17, 2014 03:44
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Keyser S0ze posted:Oh, it definitely happened he said as much in his phone call to my agent (about waiting to present offers to the owner after the weekend, etc) and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even bother presenting my counter - as he just wanted to make sure the sellers would take the cash deal. It ended up closing only 2 weeks faster than mine would have been too, so whatever. My initial offer was also over asking price and my counter ended up being $10k over what it ended up selling for. If the owners were only interested in cash offers, why even bother countering my initial offer? Well the beginning part of that (getting your offer and then telling you they were waiting to present) is loving ridiculous, but the other part makes sense. A lot of buyers will take a lesser cash value because they know financing can fall through. Also, were you asking for an inspection period? Maybe the cash buyer wasn't. Most buyers will take the cash offer because there is such a lower possibility of the deal falling through. If you spend a few days negotiating before you get in contract, and then you have a 10-day inspection period, and something goes wrong with it, well now they're two weeks behind and have to put the house back on the market and start over. I know it sucks. I've actually been in that situation multiple times in the last few months as I'm trying to find a fixer upper to live in. I'm doing Conventional/20% down, but investors are walking in a paying cash, and I just can't compete with that.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:39
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Pryor on Fire posted:What's so great about that paint? I need to do a shitload of painting soon. It covers very nicely and evenly, and smells like wet dirt when you're using it and doesn't offgas a bunch of gross smells after painting. It's just real nice, I guess.
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Oct 17, 2014 06:06
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PleasusChrist posted:Well the beginning part of that (getting your offer and then telling you they were waiting to present) is loving ridiculous, but the other part makes sense. A lot of buyers will take a lesser cash value because they know financing can fall through. Also, were you asking for an inspection period? Maybe the cash buyer wasn't. Most buyers will take the cash offer because there is such a lower possibility of the deal falling through. If you spend a few days negotiating before you get in contract, and then you have a 10-day inspection period, and something goes wrong with it, well now they're two weeks behind and have to put the house back on the market and start over. The owner's counter wanted 10 day inspection instead of 17, which I agreed to. Again, why bother giving me a counter at all if the "owner" was only interested in cash offers. Regardless, I'm in another place now that needed a shitload more work...meh. oh goodie it looks (and smells) like 1980 in here!  go away, ugly half walls and posts 
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Oct 17, 2014 17:37
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Keyser S0ze posted:The owner's counter wanted 10 day inspection instead of 17, which I agreed to. Again, why bother giving me a counter at all if the "owner" was only interested in cash offers. Regardless, I'm in another place now that needed a shitload more work...meh. My house was built/designed in the 60s, but I'm getting a very strong sense of deja vu looking at these images. I knocked down two half walls in the house, and the carpet and popcorn ceiling is giving me flashbacks. Do you have any wood paneling or wallpaper to deal with? Wallpaper was the worst for me, even worse than ripping up carpets.
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Oct 17, 2014 17:42
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Luckily no, but the garage walls are done entirely in pegboard and are hiding various electrical shenanigans I'm sure since one of the previous owners had some sort of workshop rigged up in there back in the early 90's.
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Oct 17, 2014 17:49
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Half walls and wood paneling must have just gotten you mad pussy in 1980 or something.
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Oct 17, 2014 18:24
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gently caress wood paneling.
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Oct 17, 2014 18:50
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Inverse Icarus posted:gently caress wood paneling. Don't cheap out on those things. I have one that was bent almost straight from something that I didn't consider terribly heavy use.
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Oct 17, 2014 18:51
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The crazy thing is, if you ever go in a house with real wood paneling instead of that faux stuff, it looks really nice. The thing is, I've probably only ever seen it twice ever while I've seen faux wood paneling twice this week.
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Oct 17, 2014 18:53
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Pryor on Fire posted:Half walls and wood paneling must have just gotten you mad pussy in 1980 or something. There were probably just a bunch of manufacturers claiming it increased the resale value of your home. People love claims of increased resale value.
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Oct 17, 2014 19:20
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