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AlphaDog posted:These are great ideas, the flyer stuff and the movement-halting fighter seem like they would be fantastic additions to the game. Flat damage and/or flat effect both seem fantastic. If you take an OA, it's just DMG and/or EFFECT, depending on how the fighter builds himself, no attack roll needed.
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Oct 16, 2014 23:22
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S.J. posted:Flat damage and/or flat effect both seem fantastic. If you take an OA, it's just DMG and/or EFFECT, depending on how the fighter builds himself, no attack roll needed. To be clearer, that statement is for people who want OAs on everything that moves in (or out, or however) of melee with them. If you're only getting a single OA like the RAW say, I can't see that it's a good idea to replace your 1d12+5 or whatever with "5 damage" - that just seems like a huge downgrade.
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Oct 16, 2014 23:33
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The issue there would just be with the amount of damage. I think I'd generally prefer a game with Opportunity Damage over Opportunity Attacks, because I think it would run faster. Maybe it should be the mean average damage for the weapon, or a bit below it. One presumably still has a large chance of missing with a melee attack, so I don't think auto-damage would necessarily be a downgrade.
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Oct 16, 2014 23:36
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Ok, sure, but average weapon damage doesn't scale with level. Unless you mean average <weapon+mods> damage, then I could see it working. e: I'm not sure why "a bit below it" is reasonable? Are we still talking about 1 OA / round? If we are, average damage is probably fine. If we're talking about multiple/round, average damage would likely be too much which is why I suggested a formula based on proficiency bonus (or level, or whatever, so that it comes out where you want it and is based on something that's already there). Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 23:46
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The main issue I have with OAs is that in a game where a warrior needs to do multiple attacks to keep up with other classes in a fight, a single attack is going to get less and less valuable the more attacks per round the warrior has. So at level 1 if you only have a single attack normally, a whole extra attack is doubling your damage for the turn - pretty drat good! But if you have four attacks, an extra one is only a small benefit, and that much less discouraging to an enemy who wants to escape or get past you. Maybe OAs should allow you a full round of attacks if you have multiple attacks, or you could instead give warriors a single attack that gains damage multipliers as they level instead of multiple attacks, then a single OA would still be worth as much at first level as it is at twentieth. (You could allow overdamage to carry on to other enemies within reach as a sort of "cleave" effect)
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Oct 17, 2014 00:02
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Well, we started on "flat damage for OAs", and that's good for the reasons we've just been discussing. Your post is the same reasons I suggested some kind of scaling to OA damage if it's going to be "flat" (or diceless, or however you want to put it). My point was that giving the fighter multiple OAs doesn't become complicated if they're a case of "move next to (or away from) fighter, take X damage", but that X still has to increase in some way to remain useful. If the effect is instead "move next to the fighter, end your move and take X damage" then X should be a smaller number, but it still needs to go up as the fighter levels up. It might be that just the "end move" effect is very powerful, especially if you're playing on a grid. What about keeping the OA rule as-is and have anyone moving adjacent to the fighter end their movement? Or giving the fighter number of OAs equal to their attack/round and have anyone moving adjacent to the fighter end their movement? That might be a better way to scale the "flat" damage. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 00:16
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The obvious solution seems to me to be that the fighter can make a number of OAs up to his current number of attacks per round, against his choice of targets. So if one dude provokes, he could hit him all 4 times, or he could save some in case other dudes did. The last attack uses up his reaction.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:17
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OAs genuinely shouldn't take up reactions, although a flexible cap based on the number of attacks the fighter has (or his dex, or whatever) isn't a horrible idea. They should also be flat/diceless/average damage, although it's fine for this to scale with level - the important part is to speed up play and not have to roll a bunch of attacks/damage dice. I also really liked the flyer bit, and it's a good idea; I love bosses with multiple phases, and I think it's something more games should implement. Thanks for sharing it.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:21
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I'm kind of sold on the flyer idea, too. But maybe after taking half damage, the flyer has to take at least a full move towards the ground, and can no longer gain altitude. Also, if flyers are immobilized, do they fall out of the sky and crash? What happens if they lose consciousness? Hopefully the DMG can clear some of this stuff up.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:29
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thespaceinvader posted:The obvious solution seems to me to be that the fighter can make a number of OAs up to his current number of attacks per round, against his choice of targets. So if one dude provokes, he could hit him all 4 times, or he could save some in case other dudes did. The last attack uses up his reaction.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:30
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ascendance posted:This can be true for all classes with extra attacks, i would think. Yep. I think it's a fairly elegant solution actually. But to really do it properly would require fairly major rewrites of a bunch of feats and class features, particularly things like Protector Style or whatever it's currently called.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:33
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RPZip posted:I love bosses with multiple phases Just like in World Of Warcraft! I'm not even being sarcastic here. This is something your tabletop game can crib directly from MMOs and it will make your game better. Any game. It's a genuinely great way to run boss fights and it's completely system-agnostic and it's an MMO staple. You could do it in Next, BECMI, Dungeon World, or yes, 4e. It makes for a great, memorable set-piece to cap off an adventure. Rules support for multi-phase bosses would be the best thing and I hope it's in the DMG. For now, I'd love a discussion of how to do them well in terms of 5e. edit: The only way multi-phased boss fights will feel like an MMO thing is if you start talking about them in MMO terms or making WoW references as you play through them. I'm pretty sure I played at least one AD&D or 2e module where the final encounter was in three "phases", and that would have to have been written before "MMORPG" was a term anyone was using. I've been using stuff like that ever since. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 00:36
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AlphaDog posted:To be clearer, that statement is for people who want OAs on everything that moves in (or out, or however) of melee with them. I understand, that's what my post was based on. AlphaDog posted:Just like in World Of Warcraft! Technically, D&D was already doing this even before 4e - the write ups for big 'boss' type monsters would detail their tactics at the beginning, middle, and end of a fight, and/or specific triggers that would cause them to act certain ways. It certainly wasn't hard coded of course, but it was kind of a de facto version of boss phases. S.J. fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 00:42
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S.J. posted:I understand, that's what my post was based on. I get you on the first thing, I just realised what I wrote wasn't necessarily very clear. Yes on the second thing too, I edited while you were editing. One of the things I'm thinking of is the original (or maybe the 2e) Ravenloft / House of Strahd module. Also a couple of things in 2e Planescape, although those admittedly might have overlapped with one of the very early MMORPGs. You wouldn't go wrong using WoW (e: or other MMOs or CRPGs) as a reference for building phased fights though, especially if the DMG doesn't include rules/advice. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 00:47
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It's weird that people attribute bosses with multiple phases to World of Warcraft, I remember running DND back in like high school before WoW even came out and running bosses with multiple phases, because I had already played other games over 10 years ago even then that had bosses with multiple phases. It's not a new concept. In fact, I think some of the super old modules from the 70s had bosses with multiple phases. To the least, I know of a lot of NES games released in the 80s that had bosses with multiple bosses.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:50
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This is just me, but I would rather have the fighter get a move that allows them to Hulk jump or snag flyers rather than forcing flyers to land when bloodied. I'd also give Fighters a way to draw hate because the adjacent stand still rule just means the monsters walk around the Fighter unless you have a cordon of Fighters or a choke point. The reach rule might work, but you probably want to give the Fighter some harder control or a way to become a damaging or hindering zone. I personally think that Fighters that are constrained by tenuous logic prevents them from really getting useful abilities. Once you hit a certain point, you should be Beowulf or Cu Culhain to keep up with what casters can do. That or actually get spells, but I'm pretty much alone in wanting everyone to be magical after a point. That being said, from what I've gotten out of 5e's MM, flight and a ranged weapon can beat a lot of things, which is a pretty big design oversight. This was a problem in 4e, but so few things could fly, especially PCs.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:52
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thespaceinvader posted:Yep. I think it's a fairly elegant solution actually.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:57
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WRT fighterchat I have been running BECMI recently and I think a cool way to improve fighters might be to just straight up steal the weapon proficiency tables from there and just say that fighters have proficiency in all weapons and they gain a rank of proficiency every level or something. By 20 you have a fighter that's a grandmaster with five different weapons and just strides along the battlefield forcing assholes to make saves versus death or morale checks. My fighter player (in our BECMI game) is a dude who has always wanted to have tridents as his main weapon and is super loving stoked now that his tridents pin enemies in place and make them bleed out before he throws a net on them, to halt them further before removing the trident to chuck again. Honestly I might like the way BECMI fighters play better than 4E fighters, and I loving loved playing those guys. e: the proficiency table thing also allows fighters to go after saves instead of just defenses. Like make bola attacks a reflex save and if the enemy roles a 1-4 they loving choke to death. copy fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 00:57
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goldjas posted:It's weird that people attribute bosses with multiple phases to World of Warcraft, I remember running DND back in like high school before WoW even came out and running bosses with multiple phases, because I had already played other games over 10 years ago even then that had bosses with multiple phases. It's not a new concept. Yeah, but it's a good example of something that was kinda common, kinda somewhat ignored, and never really codified in early TTRPGs, then worked really well when CRPGs/MMOs adapted it and is now seen as "belonging" to those things. Like "the fighter protects the other characters". MadRhetoric posted:This is just me, but I would rather have the fighter get a move that allows them to Hulk jump or snag flyers rather than forcing flyers to land when bloodied. I'd also give Fighters a way to draw hate because the adjacent stand still rule just means the monsters walk around the Fighter unless you have a cordon of Fighters or a choke point. The reach rule might work, but you probably want to give the Fighter some harder control or a way to become a damaging or hindering zone. Didn't even 3e have some stuff about flying things crashing after taking a certain amount of damage? "Bloodied" was such a good way of triggering things though, I'm surprised that it's not really present in Next. I mean, I can see taking it out due to the "feels like..." stuff, but I'm actually shocked it didn't get replaced with an equivalent, even if that equivalent was awkwardly worded like repeating "reduced to half hit points" or "when this monster has fewer than half its hit point total remaining" all the time. I agree with the rest of your post, but see my previous posts about trying to fit a better fighter into the "he's completely mundane" framework that Next provides us. Like I said, I'm not a fan of that framework, but I think a lot can be done to improve the fighter while still fitting him into the "no magic, no superhuman stuff" category. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 01:00
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goldjas posted:It's weird that people attribute bosses with multiple phases to World of Warcraft, I remember running DND back in like high school before WoW even came out and running bosses with multiple phases, because I had already played other games over 10 years ago even then that had bosses with multiple phases. It's not a new concept. "This isn't even my final form" is one of the older memes in existence and certainly it predates WoW just thinking of SNES-era Final Fantasy.
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Oct 17, 2014 01:11
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:"This isn't even my final form" is one of the older memes in existence and certainly it predates WoW just thinking of SNES-era Final Fantasy. Pretty sure it was in comics and pulp fantasy well before computer games even existed. You can probably find examples in myths/sagas/etc if you look, but I can't think of an obvious one off the top of my head. Computer games generally do phased bosses very well, and it wouldn't hurt tabletop RPGs to learn back from them.
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Oct 17, 2014 01:17
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Attacks of opportunity comes from 2.5e, right? Here's the text from that.quote:The threatening enemy gets to make an immediate melee attack (or sequence of attacks for monsters with multiple attacks) against the threatened creature.... Really most of the houserules needed for fighters in 5e are just taking things directly from 2e's Combat & tactics (2.5e). mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 01:19
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friendlyfire posted:The issue there would just be with the amount of damage. I think I'd generally prefer a game with Opportunity Damage over Opportunity Attacks, because I think it would run faster. Maybe it should be the mean average damage for the weapon, or a bit below it. One presumably still has a large chance of missing with a melee attack, so I don't think auto-damage would necessarily be a downgrade. You know what game has flat-damage AOO's? *ducks* AlphaDog posted:Pretty sure it was in comics and pulp fantasy well before computer games even existed. You can probably find examples in myths/sagas/etc if you look, but I can't think of an obvious one off the top of my head. I really liked this series of 4 articles on D&D boss fights, even though I think it's probably old hat to everyone here: http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/ It covers some of the endemic weaknesses of the 4th system in part 1 even though it focuses on solo's specifically.
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Oct 17, 2014 01:47
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"Opportunity damage" sounds like a pretty rad idea. It's also really thematic for getting swiped in a moment of distraction, so it has a lot of "just feels right" going for it on top of being a huge quality of life improvement.
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Oct 17, 2014 02:13
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Regarding opportunity attacks, and keeping in the spirit of 5e's "saves" system, what if instead of an opportunity attack, a creature leaving the fighter's melee range has to make a DEX save = 10+PCs fighter levels or automatically take a hit for half the fighter's weapon damage, and that can occur an infinite number of times in a round? Also, regarding multi-phase bosses, the first arc of my 5e campaign concluded with the PCs facing off against the tribal God of the Eight Legs goblin clan. They entered the room to find a massive wolf spider sitting atop a veritable mountain of artifacts and treasures. The boss was a stationary bruiser that had reach across most of the chamber, and was supported by swarms of underlings. Lucky for the party, they figured out the first "phase" very quickly: the gargantuan spider was long-dead, and was being operated like a marionette by the Eight Legs Chieftain via a system of spiderwebs. Unfortunately, we had to cut the session off abruptly, so the PCs didn't face the much fleeter of foot goblin Chief/Shaman in the second phase of the fight. edit: I thought about this for two seconds and realized that would result in DC 30 dex saves. Perhaps 10+(fighter levels/2)? Glukeose fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Oct 17, 2014 |
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Oct 17, 2014 03:01
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I think dex saves on opportunity attacks seem kind of arbitrary and take away the time saved by not making attack rolls for them. If you can roll a save you can roll an attack instead, no?
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Oct 17, 2014 03:55
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OA damage scales terribly already. Don't reduce it. That giant spider puppet sounds cool as hell, though.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:08
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The Crotch posted:I think dex saves on opportunity attacks seem kind of arbitrary and take away the time saved by not making attack rolls for them. If you can roll a save you can roll an attack instead, no? Well I figured it was keeping in the same vein as "casters get to tell the DM what happens to the creature" by forcing the creature to make a save, and also puts the impetus on the DM to make the d20 roll.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:10
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Really Pants posted:OA damage scales terribly already. Don't reduce it. Thanks, I had fun designing the encounter. Perhaps full weapon damage would be better? Or a free crit?
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Oct 17, 2014 04:16
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Saving throws being a A Thing is already dumb as it is and they annoy the hell out of me. At least as it stands I can say to a new player, "Yeah, they basically apply to any sort of spell you wouldn't have to aim (much)". This would just create more confusion: weapons get attack rolls except in this case they provoke saving throws. And as far as "telling a DM what happens to a creature", "gently caress you, take damage" is pretty straightforward.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:17
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Glukeose posted:Thanks, I had fun designing the encounter. Perhaps full weapon damage would be better? Or a free crit? Max weapon damage plus mods (plus shield bonus, to help those remain sticky as well) should do the trick. Provoking OAs is something you shouldn't want to do no matter the payoff, if a fighter is standing in the way. Everybody else can deal average weapon damage plus mods.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:40
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Maybe you guys can help: What do you guys for minis? I want some new ones and want to maximize my dollar. What's the best bang for my buck on painted minis that fit on a Chessex map? Currently have a handful of these guys since they were really cheap, but I'd like some actual fantasy themed ones.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:50
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mango sentinel posted:Maybe you guys can help: What do you guys for minis? I want some new ones and want to maximize my dollar. What's the best bang for my buck on painted minis that fit on a Chessex map? Currently have a handful of these guys since they were really cheap, but I'd like some actual fantasy themed ones. Mage Knight usually sells for dirt cheap, so if you're looking for pre-painted fantasy stuff that ought to fill your need fairly easily. The Reaper Bones line, while not pre-painted, is also pretty cheap at a couple bucks a model, and is durable enough to where you could toss a bunch of them into a bin and not worry.
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Oct 17, 2014 04:56
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mango sentinel posted:Maybe you guys can help: What do you guys for minis? I want some new ones and want to maximize my dollar. What's the best bang for my buck on painted minis that fit on a Chessex map? Currently have a handful of these guys since they were really cheap, but I'd like some actual fantasy themed ones. Legos and Heroscape minis are amazing. I use all manner of Lego, Megablocks, and Heroscape minis, combined with lincoln logs and other bits and bobs for terrain. poo poo's great. Heroscape poo poo can be pricey though, since it's a dead game. 
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Oct 17, 2014 04:59
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Well the talk of the Ravenloft campaign earlier gave me a terrible idea. There was that Grim Requiem game for 2e, where you played as undead. And now I am trying something stupid. I am going to try and convert Grim Requiem to 5e and try and run it on the forums. And here it is.
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Oct 17, 2014 05:19
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mango sentinel posted:Maybe you guys can help: What do you guys for minis? I want some new ones and want to maximize my dollar. What's the best bang for my buck on painted minis that fit on a Chessex map? Currently have a handful of these guys since they were really cheap, but I'd like some actual fantasy themed ones. I tend to use whatever comes to hand. Old Reaper minis, figures and tokens from other stuff, lego mans, whatever. I like to have something vaguely representative of what's actually in the game though. I used to use a lot of old Hero Quest stuff (hilariously badly painted by 11 year old me and my 8 year old brother), but I lost the box somewhere along the way. If you don't mind unpainted stuff, you get a shitload of minis for the price with the D&D Adventure System board games. They're pretty fun games, too. Or Descent. The Descent minis are cool as hell. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but I've also just wrapped up a full campaign of it, for what that's worth. I know you specified painted, but I have no idea about those.
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Oct 17, 2014 05:23
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I know websites like Miniature Market sell singles of the otherwise random D&D and Pathfinder minis that are prepainted.
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Oct 17, 2014 05:25
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If you don't mind cardboard, the Pathfinder Bestiary Box provides a jillion cardboard standies. The first box is every creature in the Pathfinder Bestiary, naturally enough, which means it's basically all the standard D&D monsters that aren't trademarked. It's a way cheaper way to flesh out your hordes of enemies than getting miniatures.
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Oct 17, 2014 05:40
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Your FLGS might have stuff like "big bag of zombies/orcs/skeletons/whatever". Mine used to and now it doesn't. They were cheapish ($10-$15) bags of ~20 plastic minis of dubious quality. Sort of like green plastic army men, but with like 3 differently posed skeletons or whatever in each bag. Maybe check ebay for something like that?
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Oct 17, 2014 05:46
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Why not use a 13th-age style of scaling attacks instead of the current? Basically, have you attack damage go up with level instead of just gaining more attacks. That way, OAs stay relevant, and you still get stronger damage as you level up.
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Oct 17, 2014 14:34
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