Mightypeon posted:

had the EU clearly signaled that it was willing to pay for Ukraine in the first place, the civil war wouldnt have happened at all, or only in a very reduced form.

Mightypeon posted:

Meanwhile
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/11/us-ukraine-crisis-oettinger-idUSBREA3A0PO20140411

It could be that the EU is actually putting some Money on the table (I would bet that it is just loans though), the harsh Thing is, had the EU clearly signaled that it was willing to pay for Ukraine in the first place, the civil war wouldnt have happened at all, or only in a very reduced form.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

There is no Civil War, Russia invaded Ukraine. Russians are killing Ukrainians.

ThirdPartyView posted:

Yes, of course Russia would nonchalantly accept Ukraine going into the EU's sphere...

Cliff Racer posted:

They did in 2004 or whenever it was the Orange Revolution occurred.

Dolash posted:

Also before we forget, [I]CRIMEA{/I], an annexation so laughably transparent as a Russian invasion that it completely delegitimizes the idea that any other uprising in a neighbouring region is anything other than a Russian ploy.

I won't hear that this is merely a civil war. There's no doubt that some ethnic Russians native to the Donbas region are fighting for separation, but almost certainly with an eye toward being absorbed by Russia the way Crimea was and only acting because of the support they've received from Russia and in hopes of getting a Crimea-like deal out of it.

Preoptopus posted:

Crimea is Russian bar none, always has been and anyone that knows anything will know it always will be.

Mightypeon posted:

And when Ukraines constitutional procedures were more or less upheld during the process.
While the third round of election wasnt "constitutional", the election fraud allegations concerning the second round of elections were credible.

There is a huge difference between demanding and getting new elections (2004), and throwing out the elected goverment and forcing your Agenda down the throats of the other side (2014).
Orange Revolution in 2004 did not happen by force, so Russia didnt feel legitimated in using force herself.

The other big difference is that, in 2004, "Ukrainian Nazis" were largely a Russian PR phenomenon, and in 2014 they were/are pretty drat real.
The third difference was that orange Revolution of 2004 was not explicitly against Russia, and had a consierably more Populist platform.

Valiantman posted:

e: It should be noted that the Swedes spent the better part of the '80s looking for submarines and seals mistaken for submarines from their waters. One Russian sub ran aground there in 1981.

quote:

The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

"Signing this treaty will lead to political and social unrest," said the Kremlin aide. "The living standard will decline dramatically … there will be chaos."

Valiantman posted:

Strictly speaking not Eastern Europe but about Russia, so yeah:

The Swedish navy is looking for an underwater something in the Stockholm archipelago, that much was posted before. Svenska Dagbladet reports that they've confirmed from multiple sources that before the launch of the operation, a mayday call on Russian distress frequency and in Russian was transmitted from the area and received in Kaliningrad. Navy has said that the thing they're looking for is a "man-made object". They've said nothing about the nature of the object but apparently they've gotten a mine layer to help with underwater searches. The newspaper suggests it may be a mini-sub, damaged on a spy mission.

e: It should be noted that the Swedes spent the better part of the '80s looking for submarines and seals mistaken for submarines from their waters. One Russian sub ran aground there in 1981.

Preoptopus posted:

Crimea is Russian bar none, always has been and anyone that knows anything will know it always will be.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

There is no Civil War, Russia invaded Ukraine. Russians are killing Ukrainians.

quote:

This Saturday marks 147 years since the U.S. bought Alaska from Russia. If the man in charge of Russia's defense industries gets his way, Sarah Palin will not only be able to see Russia from her front porch, but her front porch will be in Russia.

Russia's Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin wrote a foreword to a book published earlier this year, "Alaska Betrayed and Sold: The History of a Palace Conspiracy," which argues that Russia has a right to get back "Russian America."

Rogozin endorses the author's conclusion, which recognizes "the historical and judicial right of Russia for the return of the lost colonies, Alaska and the Aleutian Islands [island chain in the Northern Pacific Ocean], over which the Russian flag flew 150 years ago."

Before he became deputy prime minister, with responsibility for coordinating the work of the defense industry, Rogozin was Russia's ambassador to NATO. In 2003, Rogozin was the leader of the Rodina Party, a political organization that received Kremlin support in an effort to draw votes from nationalist parties.

Rodina's nationalist message was given extensive exposure on Russian television until about two weeks before the election, when Kremlin spin doctors realized they had overshot and Rodina might do too well at the polls. Rogozin's loyalty in accepting Rodina's downgrade has been rewarded with major appointments.

The author of the book on Alaska's sale, Ivan Mironov, was accused of attempting to assassinate Russia's privatization architect, Anatoly Chubais, in 2005. He spent two years in prison before being pardoned by the Russian Duma. Mironov's treatise initially appeared in 2007 with the title "Fatal Bargain. How Alaska Was Sold."

Mironov's view of history is that it needs frequent revision in response to how people understand world events. This leads him to revise the evaluation of Russia's sale of Alaska, recognizing it as a betrayal equivalent to Chubais's privatization program in the 1990s. Rather than viewing the sale of Alaska as a decision to jettison unprofitable overseas projects, it now should be seen as a betrayal of Russia's great power status.

Rogozin's foreword fully embraces Mironov's version of history. "Russia giving up its colonial possessions makes it necessary to look in a different way at our diplomacy in the era of Gorbachev and Yeltsin, trading away pieces of the Soviet Empire."

Rogozin argues that by refuting "the outright lies and falsifications" about the transfer of Alaska it becomes possible to "bring down the liberal idols of the 19th century — the Russian reformers of Alexander II and his brother Grand Duke Konstantin." They betrayed Russia's geopolitical interests in the Pacific, demonstrating "the impossibility of establishing diplomatic relations exclusively on concessions and compromises."

For Rogozin, Mironov's book illustrates that a single mistake in foreign policy "can produce an entire century of loss and defeat of a great power." He concludes his short foreword with a call for the return of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands to Russia.

It may well be the case that Putin is simply using Rogozin's hyperbole as a way to put pressure on diplomatic interlocutors. But the fact remains that Rogozin is not on the fringes of Russian politics — he has consistently been promoted and, as deputy prime minister, now oversees the Russian defense industry. The fact that such a prominent figure could make such statements about Russia's claim to Alaska is significant.

After the annexation of Crimea in March, which was only part of Ukraine because of a "historical mistake," according to Russia, could Alaska be next on Russia's list?

Fabulous Knight posted:

Isn't Rogozin the guy who promised to come back to Bulgaria with a bomber jet next time he pays a visit? For a deputy prime minister he sure says some outrageous things.

kalstrams posted:

Yeah, Moldova and a strategic bomber jet (Tu-160), but you are right about the essence of it.

kalstrams posted:

More info on submarine story - apparently there is some Russian oil tanker drawing circles just outside Swedish waters, according to Swedish media at least. Source.

TeodorMorozov posted:

Killing a fascists is not a sin but way to heaven. Their nationality does not matter.

Niedar posted:

So I was interested in how common circling around like that for an oil tanker is so I went to one of these tracking sites and turns out this is pretty common. Out of around 20 tankers I clicked on all of these had recent tracks of them going in circles.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:239661000/centerx:56.6105/centery:25.64767
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:354433000/centerx:121.5112/centery:40.07
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:563715000/centerx:118.5577/centery:38.8789
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:371899000/centerx:56.65233/centery:25.63168
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:357906000/centerx:56.56159/centery:25.28817
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:538003072/centerx:56.54088/centery:25.27883
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/mmsi:351596000/centerx:56.49983/centery:25.29483

kalstrams posted:

I think we need some citations at this point as to when did Baltics become part of Northern Europe.

Skeesix posted:

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

On this day 147 years ago The United States bought Alaska from Russia. The Moscow Times asks, "What if Russia decides they want it back?"

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/509438.html


It was the tzar's fault Russia went to ruin! Dirty liberal!

eigenstate posted:

Crushed the homegrown Maidan

quote:

This uprising, which was suppressed by Nicholas I, took place in the Senate Square in Saint Petersburg. In 1925, to mark the centenary of the event, the square was renamed as Decembrist Square, but in 2008 it reverted to its original name.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/509438.html

TeodorMorozov posted:

Killing a fascists is not a sin but way to heaven. Their nationality does not matter.

El Scotch posted:

You could at least put some effort into it.