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I think the moral here is there are no good people in Borderlands, only degrees of murderous.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:32
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:I think the moral here is there are no good people in Borderlands, only degrees of murderous. The few actually good people (like TK Baha or Felicity) end up getting royally hosed.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:36
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:I think the moral here is there are no good people in Borderlands, only degrees of murderous. In a world where virtually everything is digistructed and disposable, including life itself, this should not be any kind of shock. Borderlands is a consumerist satire.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:39
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Borderlands shares a lot of the same tone as the Ratchet and Clank series, which is also all about weapons companies taking advantage of the galaxy's bloodlust.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:46
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Jack was a douchbag and unreasonably paranoid, but he still fought for what was right even as he was slipping. Lilith, Roland, and Moxie pushed him over the edge into full blown villainy. Even aside from Bloodwing, he was still a blackhearted individual who killed countless innocent people, and he may or may not have been honestly convinced he was still the good guy. While Lilith and co may have caused his descent, it's still not right to say any of "Handsome" Jack's actions were justified.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:06
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Reveilled posted:I thought this worked pretty well in Playthrough 2 with her as the straight man to Tina. Admittedly I never disliked Tina, but I thought some of the best jokes in the game were Tina/Athena bits. It's true she doesn't joke around, much, though she is occasionally amusingly sarcastic, but I thought that worked pretty well for the post-airlock events. I haven't gotten to that point on Nisha, Wilhelm or Claptrap, so I don't know what happens there, but for Athena, Springs calls up to talk to her about it and Athena seems genuinely horrified for a bit, I dunno if any of the others would react like that. Do any of the sidequests change on the second playthrough or can I just blow through the main storyline for that?
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Oct 22, 2014 17:13
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WickedHate posted:Jack was a douchbag and unreasonably paranoid, but he still fought for what was right even as he was slipping. Lilith, Roland, and Moxie pushed him over the edge into full blown villainy. Even aside from Bloodwing, he was still a blackhearted individual who killed countless innocent people, and he may or may not have been honestly convinced he was still the good guy. While Lilith and co may have caused his descent, it's still not right to say any of "Handsome" Jack's actions were justified. I'm not saying any of Handsome Jack's actions are right, I'm just saying the BL1 crew (especially Lilith, Roland, and Moxie) are just as bad. I don't feel bad that Roland got murdered, and I don't feel at all bad about Jack kidnapping and torturing Lilith. The only thing I feel bad about now are Brick and Mordecai being suckered into acting as hired help for Lilith.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:25
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The only character in the series who isn't irredeemable is Gaige, and that's because all Gaige wants is to hang out with her cool robot friend.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:28
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Skandranon posted:I'm not saying any of Handsome Jack's actions are right, I'm just saying the BL1 crew (especially Lilith, Roland, and Moxie) are just as bad. I don't feel bad that Roland got murdered, and I don't feel at all bad about Jack kidnapping and torturing Lilith. The only thing I feel bad about now are Brick and Mordecai being suckered into acting as hired help for Lilith. I feel bad that Roland got murdered because if everyone can just respawn why did Roland stay dead andifJackcanselectivelymakethemstaydeadthenwhyiseveryoneelsealive DAMMIT BURCH DAMMIT YOU HAD ONE loving JOB Ahem.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:29
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Skandranon posted:I'm not saying any of Handsome Jack's actions are right, I'm just saying the BL1 crew (especially Lilith, Roland, and Moxie) are just as bad. I don't feel bad that Roland got murdered, and I don't feel at all bad about Jack kidnapping and torturing Lilith. The only thing I feel bad about now are Brick and Mordecai being suckered into acting as hired help for Lilith. I can agree with that, but they were protecting people and doing the right thing in BL2, and I'm sure Brick and Mordicai would have been helping regardless.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:31
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Megazver posted:I feel bad that Roland got murdered because if everyone can just respawn why did Roland stay dead andifJackcanselectivelymakethemstaydeadthenwhyiseveryoneelsealive DAMMIT BURCH DAMMIT YOU HAD ONE loving JOB My favorite part of this is that they are so salty about people calling them out on this dumb poo poo that there are several passive aggressive references to it in this game, first and foremost these things in Concordia: 
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Oct 22, 2014 17:32
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Roland's still alive, they just 'killed him' because he had a scheduling conflict. You guys think that the bandits actually die when you kill them? New U Station mate.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:37
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I think the story is really just one of multiple organisations and agents acting out of self-interest, which conflict with each other. Maintaining the self-deception of occupying the moral high ground is only an unconscious tactic to minimize cognitive dissonance, and the perspective of the story in each game (especially now that it's been turned on its head in TPS) reinforces the idea that everybody roots for their own team. I mean, I found myself sympathizing strongly with Jack the entire time, but really it is just because his interests align with my own for the moment. The narrative throws around the word 'hero' frequently, in an obviously facetious way, while the story is actually about protagonist/antagonist rather than hero/villain. Is Borderlands a commentary on the interaction between moral relativism and narrative perspective?
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Oct 22, 2014 17:40
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I just like shooting people in the head and laughing as they flail around when on fire. I am the lowest common denominator.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:49
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Tezzeract posted:Roland's still alive, they just 'killed him' because he had a scheduling conflict. You guys think that the bandits actually die when you kill them? New U Station mate. The entirety of pandora is occupied by a few hundred bandits, who you fight and "kill" over and over again.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:02
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:The entirety of pandora is occupied by a few hundred bandits, who you fight and "kill" over and over again. It's crazy how they never learn. Years of being repeatedly murdered by crazy tattoo women with superpowers and they still don't hide.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:08
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Actually Borderlands: The Pre Sequel reveals that it's just one guy running around with hundreds of digistruct clones. Digi-guns, digi-buildings, digi-toilets. Everything is digistructed now.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:09
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Well, I'm reminded of Borderlands 2, in which you're trying to kill Jack. Why? He tried to kill you. All the high-mindedness and world destruction stuff comes after the fact. He tried to kill you guys, so you're going to kill him. The first crew of Vault Hunters wanted to open the Vault and get rich. Once again, saving the world comes along the way, it's not their original motivation. Same with Jack's crew, really. Borderlands: fumbling your way into heroism.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:10
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WickedHate posted:I can agree with that, but they were protecting people and doing the right thing in BL2, and I'm sure Brick and Mordicai would have been helping regardless. In light of the PS, I'm not even sure of that. They all balked at Jacks plan to laser all the bandits, but then Roland forms the Crimson Lance and kills bandits with guns, and Lilith becomes an Eridium junkie and melts their face off. They really had exactly the same goals as Jack, but just plain didn't like him. At least the BL2 crew are somewhat above reproach(so far). They just got tricked by Roland & Lilith's smooth talk about how they were good guys and "oh please help us against this bad bad person, it's not our fault he keeps attacking us, not at all" And yeah, at least Brick and Mordecai are (more) honest about their actions and intentions. I really can't stand Lilith's sanctimonious crap, and I haven't even finished the game...
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Oct 22, 2014 18:14
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Skandranon posted:And yeah, at least Brick and Mordecai are (more) honest about their actions and intentions. I really can't stand Lilith's sanctimonious crap, and I haven't even finished the game... It gets worse.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:16
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I find the bluntness of characters like Brick, Nisha and Wilhelm refreshing.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:19
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The first crew of Vault Hunters wanted to open the Vault and get rich. Once again, saving the world comes along the way, it's not their original motivation. Same with Jack's crew, really. The first crew never really have been that interested in saving the world, only themselves. First game, they want to get rich, and that's pretty much it. They only started fighting against Atlas so they keep the vault to themselves. Then in the pre-sequel they are on vacation and in the way of the laser, so again, saving their own hides. If they could have just left Elpis, I'm sure they would have. And by Borderlands 2, they are basically focussing on surviving Jack and his revenge, while also killing Bandits because, you know, it's fun. Then they turn over the whole heroism job to the BL2 crew because "wow, you killed Wilhelm, who single-handedly kicked all our asses as we actually suck".
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Oct 22, 2014 18:20
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That's kinda what i like about Borderlands, behind the humorous facade is a world that only the most depraved can survive on. It takes normal people and makes them just as hosed up as the planet itself. There are no heroes in Borderlands, just lunatics.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:20
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CJacobs posted:It gets worse. I know, I haven't been able to refrain from reading all the spoiler tags.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:20
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Has there been any mention at all of the BL2 crew in TPS? I haven't noticed, but I'm probably not paying full attention.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:26
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MooCowlian posted:Has there been any mention at all of the BL2 crew in TPS? I haven't noticed, but I'm probably not paying full attention. I think Lilith executed them.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:28
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Skandranon posted:In light of the PS, I'm not even sure of that. They all balked at Jacks plan to laser all the bandits, but then Roland forms the Crimson Lance and kills bandits with guns, and Lilith becomes an Eridium junkie and melts their face off. They really had exactly the same goals as Jack, but just plain didn't like him. An important difference is that they are protecting civilians and fighting actual bandits while Jack murders anyone not aligned with Hyperion indiscriminately. They hosed up in TPS and Lilith is a bitch, but they are actively heroic in 2.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:30
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I'm really hoping she is the villain in Borderlands 3. I'm much more upset with her attitude than Jack name-calling me in BL2.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:31
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I think I'm finally starting to get used to this fancy Moon low gravity gameplay. The first 3 hours of this game I was very frustrated because I kept coming up JUST SHORT on jumps either in a vehicle or on foot, trying to boost up to ledges. After learning that jump-pads can be overcharged, and also learning to shoot those moon craters plugged by rocks all over the surface of the moon, which turn into a vertical jump jet, traversing the terrain has gotten a LITTLE BIT easier. There are still WAY TOO MANY bottomless pits/lava floes/places where you can fall off a small ledge and die while floating through the air trying to get a scoped headshot/ice lakes though. It kinda sucks the fun out of the gameplay for me.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:31
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I find it kinda funny how the BL2 crew has been completely forgotten about. BL2 was more about the original gang than it was about the new characters. Hell even the pre-sequel is more about the original cast. Were the BL2 characters really that forgettable?
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Oct 22, 2014 18:33
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The Pre Sequel takes place before Borderlands 2. 
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Oct 22, 2014 18:35
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WickedHate posted:An important difference is that they are protecting civilians and fighting actual bandits while Jack murders anyone not aligned with Hyperion indiscriminately. They hosed up in TPS and Lilith is a bitch, but they are actively heroic in 2. I'm not so sure I buy that anymore. Just playing BL2, yeah, they are the good guys. But knowing now what they kept secret from the BL2 crew makes everything else they said throughout the entire game dubious at best. Were they 'selflessly protecting people from Hyperion' or 'gathering what troops they could around them to save their own hides'? I don't know, and I'm not giving them the benefit of doubt any more.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:35
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Party Boat posted:The Pre Sequel takes place before Borderlands 2. He's talking about the frame story part (as in, the opening and ending and stuff), not the part being told by Athena.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:36
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BombiTheZombie posted:I find it kinda funny how the BL2 crew has been completely forgotten about. BL2 was more about the original gang than it was about the new characters. Hell even the pre-sequel is more about the original cast. Were the BL2 characters really that forgettable? It's annoying because they were really great and enjoyable with what they got. Tell me more about what's up with Axton, Salvador, Maya, Zer0, Krieg, and Gaige! Those are the interesting ones! You basically had to reinvent and give a fresh personality to the originals for them to have any character at all.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:36
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BombiTheZombie posted:I find it kinda funny how the BL2 crew has been completely forgotten about. BL2 was more about the original gang than it was about the new characters. Hell even the pre-sequel is more about the original cast. Were the BL2 characters really that forgettable? Realtalk: The BL1 crew was pretty forgettable, but most of BL2 was devoted to giving them personalities and motivations beyond "first-person avatar". BL2 crew is the same way, except the PS didn't spend its whole storyline acting as a vehicle to promote them like that. Pre-Sequel's cast is a different story because they already got characterized in BL1 and BL2. Athena and Nisha both had an entire questline in their original games devoted to laying out who they were and what they are about. Claptrap has been around since the BL1 Tutorial. Wilhelm doesn't have much backstory, but there's an expectation of seeing him take steps toward becoming a giant, mindless robot man like in BL2, and his quips during quest dialog fill in some gaps.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:39
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Borderlands 3 should be the entire BL2 crew + Athena & extras as they take down a power mad Lilith,Moxie, and her brain washed henchmen(Brick, Mordecai, Scooter, etc)
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Oct 22, 2014 18:40
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I just want BL3 to have Lilith as the villian and Brick and Mordecai along with Athena and the BL2 characters teaming up with whichever new guys they add, with everyone having an equal part in the story.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:43
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BL3 needs to have Gaige's Dad as a vault hunter. It doesn't matter what else it has.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:47
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Kaethela posted:BL3 needs to have Gaige's Dad as a vault hunter. It doesn't matter what else it has. Sample skills "Flaming Golf Cart" "Hot Cocoa" and "Keep it down, honey"
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Oct 22, 2014 18:50
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Skandranon posted:Borderlands 3 should be the entire BL2 crew + Athena & extras as they take down a power mad Lilith,Moxie, and her brain washed henchmen(Brick, Mordecai, Scooter, etc) I would be totally up for killing Scooter. EDIT: My pet theory is that all the heavy metals on Pandora poison your brain and make you a raging rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:51
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