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theflyingorc posted:They specifically said they don't know whether or not he was high in the report, I suspect that will mutate to "he was high" in the narrative over the next few weeks but let's not accuse them of lies they haven't said yet. He was shopping for blunt wraps right? He wasn't high, he was in withdrawal! Clearly he could think of nothing else but his next fix.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:54
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semper wifi posted:The alternative, that the cop whipped out his gun and shot him with no provocation at all on Brown's part, beggars belief. That Brown was already engaged in a physical struggle with the cop and the gun was fired as a result of that is much more reasonable and is the story given by every single witness and the police themselves. Yes, those are clearly the only two alternatives. The cop's story vs a drive-by. Good thinking.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:57
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So is this another situation where regular citizens are supposed to react with perfect rationality and calmness when dealing with dangerous and unexpected situations or everything that happens to them is their fault (such as a policeman putting a gun in your face) while supposedly trained police are given huge amounts of leniency because they are scared of the incidents they create due to either stupidity or hubris?
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Oct 23, 2014 01:57
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theflyingorc posted:Completely disagree. Taking the basic level of "hey let's make sure no murders occurred" to show that we care when people die is a worthwhile thing to do unless, again, there's so little evidence that a grand jury can't even indict. Believe it or not, it was a really really good thing that Zimmerman went to trial and had someone successfully argue that there was reasonable doubt, whether or not you agree with the outcome of the trial. It's not like trials are free of consequences (not to mention cost). Ignoring evidence to force an imperfect trial to placate the mob strikes me as a miscarriage of justice (and therefore bad faith). Lemming posted:Or it could have been what the witnesses have said, and what was in the post you quoted, that Wilson tried to pull Brown into the car, and Brown was struggling to get out, and when he saw Wilson pulled a gun, he put his hand in between the gun and his face because he didn't want to get shot in the face
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Oct 23, 2014 01:57
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Isn't that what I'm arguing for, though? That if we're going to have "good faith" indictments why should we be encouraging prosecutors to limit the evidence for those indictments? Are you saying it makes any more or less sense than Brown diving through a truck window across a cop's lap to grab his gun?
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Oct 23, 2014 01:59
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yes, those are clearly the only two alternatives. The cop's story vs a drive-by. Good thinking. Okay, give me an alternative wherein Brown gets close enough to the muzzle of the gun to get bits of flying gunpowder stuck in his wounds, gives the cop a reason to shoot him, but is not physically struggling for the gun.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:00
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These trolls really need to step up their game. Why not just post "im gay" like 40 times in a row? It'd be about as subtle.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:03
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Stultus Maximus posted:Are you saying it makes any more or less sense than Brown diving through a truck window across a cop's lap to grab his gun?
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Oct 23, 2014 02:07
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Not literally dragging him through the window into the seat you dolt, grabbing him and pulling him up to the side of the car/partially inside to try to stop him from running away.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:12
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Stultus Maximus posted:Are you saying it makes any more or less sense than Brown diving through a truck window across a cop's lap to grab his gun? Wilson (apparently) testified that he drew his gun before Brown tried to grab it, so this scenario isn't what anyone is saying happened. More likely he yelled at them to get out of the road, they said something stupid back, he got pissed off and confrontational and then Brown did too and everything escalated from there, leading to him drawing his gun when he definitely should not have (you are in a car why don't you just start rolling along) which lead to shots being fired because don't loving draw a gun if you aren't intending to fire it because you probably will do so.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:18
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Kalman posted:Wilson (apparently) testified that he drew his gun before Brown tried to grab it, so this scenario isn't what anyone is saying happened. That sounds like the most likely series of events to me and really places the blame on Wilson.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:20
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All we've confirmed about the struggle in the SUV is that Brown was at the window and then it happened. Wilson claims that Brown suddenly flipped out and he and his friend (who wasn't punished for anything) began attacking him through the window for no reason when he stopped him for jaywalking (whether or not Wilson knew that Brown was a robbery suspect has changed). It's also been suggested that Wilson may have tried to physically keep him from running after stopping him and Brown (not unreasonably) tried to get away, turning it into a proper fight. I don't find the idea that Brown suddenly attacked a cop for no reason to be very palatable. You could maybe suggest that he was trying to get away with stealing the cigars, but there's two big problems: how would he have known that he was being arrested for robbery (as opposed to walking in the middle of the street in front of a police vehicle), and why would he have tried to beat up an armed police officer over a box of Swisher Sweets? It relies on Brown being an irrational and violent nutcase, which doesn't match what's known about his personality. On the other hand, police in America have a proven history of physically detaining and even tackling, throwing, and pinning people who aren't resisting arrest or committing any kind of violent action. The NYPD killing Eric Garner with a chokehold is the best recent example, but I can find more on request. Brown trying to beat up a cop in his vehicle to get away with jaywalking and/or stealing some cigars makes little sense, but Wilson trying to grab Brown through his window after waving him over matches up very well with prior American police actions even when violence by white officers against black suspects isn't taken into account.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:27
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Kalman posted:Wilson (apparently) testified that he drew his gun before Brown tried to grab it, so this scenario isn't what anyone is saying happened. My personal best guess is that Wilson opened the door into Brown and it bounced back, hitting Wilson, then Wilson drew.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:27
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?chitoryu12 posted:All we've confirmed about the struggle in the SUV is that Brown was at the window and then it happened. Wilson claims that Brown suddenly flipped out and he and his friend (who wasn't punished for anything) began attacking him through the window for no reason when he stopped him for jaywalking (whether or not Wilson knew that Brown was a robbery suspect has changed). It's also been suggested that Wilson may have tried to physically keep him from running after stopping him and Brown (not unreasonably) tried to get away, turning it into a proper fight. Didn't Wilson also come from a department that had been broken up due to corruption issues or was that someone else?
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Oct 23, 2014 02:31
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Radish posted:? Yup. Wilson has worked for two departments notorious for harassment and brutality towards African Americans quote:The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:34
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chitoryu12 posted:On the other hand, police in America have a proven history of physically detaining and even tackling, throwing, and pinning people who aren't resisting arrest or committing any kind of violent action. The NYPD killing Eric Garner with a chokehold is the best recent example, but I can find more on request. Brown trying to beat up a cop in his vehicle to get away with jaywalking and/or stealing some cigars makes little sense, but Wilson trying to grab Brown through his window after waving him over matches up very well with prior American police actions even when violence by white officers against black suspects isn't taken into account. But we're in a post-racial society! You're the real racist for insinuating that the police are anything less than flawless godlike heroes unable to wrong!
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Oct 23, 2014 02:36
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yup. Wilson has worked for two departments notorious for harassment and brutality towards African Americans I read somewhere or another that the Jennings thing was because the Feds shut the city down for embezzling a bunch of earmarked DUI checkpoint money into the general fund, and the city council voted to disband the police and contract City to cover so they could keep the ticket revenue running. The Jennings PD was certainly a bunch of racist brutal assholes, but if I understand correctly, the disbandment was a tactic to maintain ticketing revenue, not a "our white city council has suddenly decided they have a problem with our white police's actions against our black (and profitable) citizens." Speaking of unlikely goddamn scenarios. Slo-Tek fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 02:39
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yup. Wilson has worked for two departments notorious for harassment and brutality towards African Americans This is literally no different from me saying "Michael Brown came from a racial group notorious for significantly higher crime rates and assaults on police offers than the national average." Except that would be a ridiculous argument to throw into the mix when the Autopsy/Grand Jury witness statements speak for themselves, so I won't say it. ----------------
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Oct 23, 2014 02:39
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yup. Wilson has worked for two departments notorious for harassment and brutality towards African Americans It was also discovered shortly after the incident that the claims of him having a "flawless record" were patently false, as he only had such a record because the Ferguson PD doesn't keep reliable records and didn't keep any records of police misconduct for a time. A black woman came forward and testified to the media that he had pepper sprayed her needlessly and then attempted to deny medical attention for it. quote:This is literally no different from me saying "Michael Brown came from a racial group notorious for significantly higher crime rates and assaults on police offers than the national average." Oh my Jesus. Edit: Thank God for Adblock to get rid of your rear end-huge signature.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:41
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semper wifi posted:Okay, give me an alternative wherein Brown gets close enough to the muzzle of the gun to get bits of flying gunpowder stuck in his wounds, gives the cop a reason to shoot him, but is not physically struggling for the gun. You don't have to stretch your imagination here. The cop admits he drew his weapon - Brown like any reasonable person probably tried to push his gun out of the way so that there is no longer a gun pointed at his face, Wilson has an itchy trigger finger and fired from close range getting powder on Brown's hand.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:44
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Narciss posted:This is literally no different from me saying "Michael Brown came from a racial group notorious for significantly higher crime rates and assaults on police offers than the national average." Except that would be a ridiculous argument to throw into the mix when the Autopsy/Grand Jury witness statements speak for themselves, so I won't say it. Come on admit it, you just read the Politics thread and you're trying to rip off Larry Klayman.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:48
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semper wifi posted:Okay, give me an alternative wherein Brown gets close enough to the muzzle of the gun to get bits of flying gunpowder stuck in his wounds, gives the cop a reason to shoot him, but is not physically struggling for the gun. Wait, so you're saying the cop would only shoot if he had a reason to? No cop has ever accidentally shot someone, or themselves? No cop has ever intentionally shot someone without legal justification? Cops only shoot people when they have a legitimate reason? Bullshit.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:56
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emptyspace posted:Wait, so you're saying the cop would only shoot if he had a reason to? Not in St. Louis County, according to prosecutors! 
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Oct 23, 2014 02:57
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How the gently caress do people still fall for Narciss' trolling? He's been banned or probated 43 times.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:59
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Narciss posted:This is literally no different from me saying "Michael Brown came from a racial group notorious for significantly higher crime rates and assaults on police offers than the national average." This is amazing. I want to get this sewn into a sampler, so I can hang it above my bed. Every morning, I will wake up, and it will be the first thing I see. Every day I will go out into the world knowing that, no matter what mistakes I make, I will never be as stupid as the person who wrote that sentence.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:01
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I have to agree insisting we judge Brown as an individual (and ignore his previous physical altercation I guess) but judge Wilson as an amalgamation of the worst police have to offer seems at least inconsistent.A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Not literally dragging him through the window into the seat you dolt, grabbing him and pulling him up to the side of the car/partially inside to try to stop him from running away. edited out a double quote not sure why that happened Waco Panty Raid fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 03:03
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:How the gently caress do people still fall for Narciss' trolling? He's been banned or probated 43 times. I am not trolling. This thread has a ridiculous double standard, where "this department has notoriously heavy-handed dealing with blacks" is permissible as some sort of evidence but "this specific person involved in the case was caught stealing from a store and assaulting a guy minutes before the shooting" is some sort of character assassination. It's insane. Then there's the pages upon pages of people theorycrafting bizarre sequences of events that explain the Autopsy in a way that makes Wilson a murderer and Brown a victim. Then there are the witnesses who provided testimony to the grand jury that supported Wilson's description of the events. Black witnesses, if that matters to you. It is not surprising to me that this stuff didn't come out before now; witnesses who are part of a community like Ferguson's are probably extremely afraid to tell a story that contradicts the one their friends and neighbors' want to hear. http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ba29_story.html ----------------
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Oct 23, 2014 03:07
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:How the gently caress do people still fall for Narciss' trolling? He's been banned or probated 43 times. Yeah, I just caught on to that. Centripetal Horse posted:This is amazing. I want to get this sewn into a sampler, so I can hang it above my bed. Every morning, I will wake up, and it will be the first thing I see. Every day I will go out into the world knowing that, no matter what mistakes I make, I will never be as stupid as the person who wrote that sentence. Maybe you could condense it into a dozen words, maybe a little more.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:09
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emptyspace posted:Wait, so you're saying the cop would only shoot if he had a reason to? I know this is DND but if you're going to accuse Wilson of being a crazed villain, thirsty for the blood of black youth you need some kind of evidence, and "he's a cop" doesn't count.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:18
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semper wifi posted:I know this is DND but if you're going to accuse Wilson of being a crazed villain, thirsty for the blood of black youth you need some kind of evidence, and "he's a cop" doesn't count. He shot a wounded man who was running away from him. Does that count?
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Oct 23, 2014 03:27
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Tender Bender posted:He shot a wounded man who was running away from him. Does that count? He was also part of previous police organizations which were disbanded for corruption and a witness came forward and claimed that he had pepper sprayed her and denied her medical care for essentially no reason. Plus, you know, shooting and killing an unarmed person who was fleeing, letting him try to surrender, and then shooting him some more.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:31
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SedanChair posted:It's always fun to rediscover what a pseudoscience forensics is. Everything is pseudoscience if you go into the research with the conclusion already decided on. Such as in this case where the official coroner, the politicians, the reporters and WASP community already decided "The kid already committed the felony of being born black and being within a half mile of a white police officer" the moment they heard another white cop shot another black kid. Edit: I'm not saying forensics is a "hard science" or even reliable, but no real forensics was even done in this case by St. Louis and we all know it. It's just been a whitewash for Wilson since day 1 with the minimum work done to allow them to bill the tax-payers for their time. Alkydere fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 03:33
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Narciss posted:Then there's the pages upon pages of people theorycrafting bizarre sequences of events that explain the Autopsy in a way that makes Wilson a murderer and Brown a victim. Then there are the witnesses who provided testimony to the grand jury that supported Wilson's description of the events. Black witnesses, if that matters to you. It is not surprising to me that this stuff didn't come out before now; witnesses who are part of a community like Ferguson's are probably extremely afraid to tell a story that contradicts the one their friends and neighbors' want to hear. You heard it here folks, everyone in Ferguson is a "Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none of them have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Washington Post’s sources said." And we should totally trust that source because reasons.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:52
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semper wifi posted:I know this is DND but if you're going to accuse Wilson of being a crazed villain, thirsty for the blood of black youth you need some kind of evidence, and "he's a cop" doesn't count. I didn't accuse Wilson of poo poo, least of all being thirsty for the blood of black youth. Quit being so loving melodramatic. I called into question your assertion that a cop would need a valid reason to shoot someone. There's ample evidence that cops sometimes accidentally or intentionally (unjustifiably) shoot civilians, other cops, even themselves. You were saying that Wilson would only fire his weapon if he had a reason to. That's your claim. What's your evidence? "He's a cop" doesn't count. emptyspace fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 03:53
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Nevvy Z posted:You heard it here folks, everyone in Ferguson is a It'd be great if people could engage in a discussion instead of dropping pithy 1-liners as if that's a real debate. Ferguson is largely black, and largely lower-class. There is a certain culture that permeates places like this that is insular and hostile to the police, and encourages solidarity in any confrontation with them like we're seeing with this battle over the media narrative. Nevvy Z posted:"Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none of them have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Washington Post’s sources said." And we should totally trust that source because reasons. It's a news article from a reputable newspaper, I'm not sure why you think that's any less worthy of posting than these endless made-up stories about "oh, here's how I think the shooting went down. Witness testimony? Autopsy reports? Pffft, fruit of the racist tree." ----------------
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Oct 23, 2014 04:00
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Narciss posted:It'd be great if people could engage in a discussion instead of dropping pithy 1-liners as if that's a real debate. Ferguson is largely black, and largely lower-class. There is a certain culture that permeates places like this that is insular and hostile to the police, and encourages solidarity in any confrontation with them like we're seeing with this battle over the media narrative. Don't quite understand what you're trying to get at here, except you're sorta blaming the community for its own predicament. I surmise if the police had more respect for the black community (and others in general), then maybe, just maybe, the community wouldn't seem so damned "hostile" towards them. quote:It's a news article from a reputable newspaper, I'm not sure why you think that's any less worthy of posting than these endless made-up stories about "oh, here's how I think the shooting went down. Witness testimony? Autopsy reports? Pffft, fruit of the racist tree." Oh you. 
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Oct 23, 2014 04:07
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LorneReams posted:They are basically doing whatever they can do to get around the elephant in the room that he shot an unarmed person as they were running away. Actually, they might use the struggle that occurred beforehand as justification for the continued shooting afterward. They could say that even if Brown was surrendering, Wilson was "justified" in his actions because of his state of mind following the initial struggle in the SUV. Of course it may not even come to that if the grand jury decides to completely ignore all the eye-witnesses who have said that Brown's hands were up. Equine Don posted:The forensics thing is pretty true, there was a scathing report about it, which is also available on Netflix in documentary form. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/228091.pdf
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Oct 23, 2014 04:08
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Everyday Lurker posted:I surmise if the police had more respect for the black community (and others in general), then maybe, just maybe, the community wouldn't seem so damned "hostile" towards them. I totally agree, I'm just trying to explain why it is not shocking that there are witnesses who came forward now that a grand jury was put together, who had not spoken up sooner. ----------------
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Oct 23, 2014 04:09
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Narciss posted:It'd be great if people could engage in a discussion instead of dropping pithy 1-liners as if that's a real debate. Ferguson is largely black, and largely lower-class. There is a certain culture that permeates places like this that is insular and hostile to the police, and encourages solidarity in any confrontation with them like we're seeing with this battle over the media narrative. If you aren't a troll then you don't understand complex social issues well enough to be engaging on them. That you can say something like this: Narciss posted:This is literally no different from me saying "Michael Brown came from a racial group notorious for significantly higher crime rates and assaults on police offers than the national average." Except that would be a ridiculous argument to throw into the mix when the Autopsy/Grand Jury witness statements speak for themselves, so I won't say it. with no awareness of how those things are completely and entirely different shows this. Narciss posted:I totally agree, I'm just trying to explain why it is not shocking that there are witnesses who came forward now that a grand jury was put together, who had not spoken up sooner. Your 'explanation' is just a quote from the WSJ citing an anonymous source who probably has an agenda. Where is this testimony in the police reports?
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Oct 23, 2014 04:10
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Nevvy Z posted:Your 'explanation' is just a quote from the WSJ citing an anonymous source who probably has an agenda. Where is this testimony in the police reports? Do you have reading comprehension problems, or what? All the real witnesses who know the truth are afraid to speak up because they fear reprisals from the urban thug protester neighborhood gangbangers. They only feel safe speaking to representatives of national publications.
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Oct 23, 2014 04:16
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