|
Conversely, you should always PvP in 4e. We all hate fun, and inter-party strife in a system not designed for it is an excellent way to create that.
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 12:52 |
|
|
I feel it's worth pointing out you CAN make PvP work in 4E, but you need to work with the system to do it. Essentially, team-based 4 PC PvP. It works surprisingly well I've found, the best example being that tournament Gau ran like 2 years ago. Was a lot of fun.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 19:53
|
|
|
Yeah my pvp experience was a 5v5 ctf match Korlac ran on the forums some time ago. It was admittedly fun despite the horrendous imbalance (but I suppose having a respawn mechanic helped that).
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
I sometimes wonder how good 4th Ed would be as a standalone tactical wargame without the RP component.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
Azran posted:I sometimes wonder how good 4th Ed would be as a standalone tactical wargame without the RP component. As mentioned prior, it doesn't really work, due to rocket-taggy-ness. There's certainly a good framework to build off of, but you'd need to do extensive work to balance things/assign points/whatever else. Actually now that I think of it: what if it used the monster stat blocks, and PC power selection, etc. wasn't a factor? Like, I pit my 1000XP worth of monsters versus someone else's 1000XP. You could use the Elite template stuff to give further customization options, account for special equipment, spend part of your budget on traps, etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 22:03
|
|
|
Majuju posted:As mentioned prior, it doesn't really work, due to rocket-taggy-ness. There's certainly a good framework to build off of, but you'd need to do extensive work to balance things/assign points/whatever else. Wasn't this basically the D&D Miniatures game? I don't think it had traps, but it may have had templates.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 03:31
|
|
|
Echophonic posted:Wasn't this basically the D&D Miniatures game? I don't think it had traps, but it may have had templates. Not exactly. The last couple of iterations of D&D Miniatures were modified versions of the game rules that used more static values to try and cut down on dice rolling, for instance. This is a card from the 3.5 D&D Miniatures game:  There's actually a whole lot of stuff still going on here, even though this is a very straightforward card, so Wizards came up with Dungeon Command, which were pre-packaged skirmish warbands and tiles, where the cards look like this:  The system is completely diceless and works on the modular dungeon tiles included with the warbands. Both of them are pretty cool but I've never actually had a chance to play either one! Majuju fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Oct 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 04:14
|
|
|
Majuju posted:Not exactly. The last couple of iterations of D&D Miniatures were modified versions of the game rules that used more static values to try and cut down on dice rolling, for instance. This is a card from the 3.5 D&D Miniatures game: Notably Rob Heinsoo had a strong hand in 3.5 Miniatures game.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 05:35
|
|
|
Dungeon Command is legit, and if you really enjoy it you can buy multiples of the same sets to customize your deck/army. The price isn't bad for prepainted minis + tiles, too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 06:05
|
|
|
You could just pit a team of PCs against a team of monsters. You'd still need someone to keep track of conditions, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 08:57
|
|
|
I'm deeply conflicted on how I want to build a hammer/shield fighter for a level 25 game. -My first instinct is just take the stuff that raises my AC and NADs to astronomical levels and take +push items that let me ram monsters into anything -My second instinct is to really invest in the stuff that lets you troll monsters with on-hit daze/prone, at fairly high expense to my defenses if I go all in on being sticky. I'm also deeply split between Indomitable Champion, which is dull but solid, and Marshal of Letherna, which can be pretty dominating but lacks things I like, like two ability bonuses.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 09:55
|
|
|
So, two of my players decided to get an Armor of Sudden Recovery - and I gotta say, it's incredibly nasty. An armor that turns ongoing damage into regeneration, until the end of encounter? And worst of all, I've got a boss coming up who consistently causes ongoing 10, and I'm not sure how much of a challenge he'll be when two players run around with regeneration 10 for the entire battle. I've considered putting a smaller battle with ongoing damage earlier, to bait out the daily use of the armor, but this is ridiculous. I shouldn't have to plan entire encounters around this ability. Is this item really as bad as I think it is? I don't want to straight-up ban magic items! I'm just not quite sure what I can do against that onslaught of regeneration, besides cutting down on ongoing damage. It's not even that bad that I "lose" access to that tool - my players have lots of stuff to negate ongoing anyway -, it's the encounter-long regeneration that I dread. Worse than Moment of Glory, even, since that one stops at a mere 5 hp/round... Any ideas?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 10:22
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:I'm deeply conflicted on how I want to build a hammer/shield fighter for a level 25 game. I've always been a fan of this hammer build in epic: http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3037496 Whats that, five dominates an encounter on a Figher? Yes please. Don't know if it still stands as high op, but it's certainly fun.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 13:32
|
|
|
Torquemadras posted:So, two of my players decided to get an Armor of Sudden Recovery - and I gotta say, it's incredibly nasty. An armor that turns ongoing damage into regeneration, until the end of encounter? And worst of all, I've got a boss coming up who consistently causes ongoing 10, and I'm not sure how much of a challenge he'll be when two players run around with regeneration 10 for the entire battle. I've considered putting a smaller battle with ongoing damage earlier, to bait out the daily use of the armor, but this is ridiculous. I shouldn't have to plan entire encounters around this ability. Bait them for the time when you need it. Have a smaller encounter that gives ongoing 10 earlier. If they save the ability then they deserve it. Beyond that, just don't overuse ongoing damage. Use other effects. I agree that it's a pain because other effects tend to slow down combat while ongoing damage hastens it. But that's how it goes... My group was obsessed with having action superiority and took anything to get more actions or protect against losing actions.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
Torquemadras posted:So, two of my players decided to get an Armor of Sudden Recovery - and I gotta say, it's incredibly nasty. Damaging auras and zones. End of problem. You should still use ongoing damage sometimes, though. They got the armor, let them have a few chances to use it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 18:52
|
|
|
Really Pants posted:Damaging auras and zones. End of problem. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Instead of that huge AoE blast that causes ongoing 10 psychic, I'll just have it activate an equally huge aura that causes 10 psychic damage for a turn or so... Also saves me the attack throw  I have some enemies who are really into poison, that should be a nice opportunity to use the armor. Hell, maybe I'll give my big boss an ongoing 5 damage attack somewhere, too. Regeneration 5 isn't so bad when I've got bigger numbers flying around! Also, the players in question both play Strikers (and replaced a Defender and a Leader), so they'll need HP anyway. I have to say, though, I am NOT amused by that item. It straight-up turns an adverse effect into an unremovable bonus. I guess I'll have to houserule in advance that you can't activate the armor because of your allies' damage, because I just know they'll try...
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 19:22
|
|
|
There are monsters that limit or prevent healing, but you might also want to focus on conditions instead of damage if it's that much of a problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
Really Pants posted:There are monsters that limit or prevent healing, but you might also want to focus on conditions instead of damage if it's that much of a problem. Swarm them with bullywugs, who by the way I still wish were not a terrible PC race
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
Oh man that would be really sweet with the warlock power that converts any hit you take into slow ongoing damage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 19:46
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:Swarm them with bullywugs, who by the way I still wish were not a terrible PC race One day I will be able to make Frog from Chrono Trigger a viable PC... but it is not this day.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 22:28
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:I'm deeply conflicted on how I want to build a hammer/shield fighter for a level 25 game. Overwhelming Impact is the absolute bee's knees, it's awesome at Epic being a hammer fighter. Especially if your Warlord buddy takes the encounter power that gives out +stat to hit against dazed creatures. I have an epic hammer knight at the moment and it rocks. E: and yeah, don't loving PVP in 4e, it doesn't work. It's not only rocket tag, it's massively imbalanced rock-paper-scissors rocket tag. There are better systems for it, use one of them if you must. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Oct 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 23:13
|
|
|
I seem to recall some goon (Fuego Fish?) coming up with a DTAS conversion thinger for 4e; does anyone have any experience actually playing out a campaign using it?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 07:19
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Overwhelming Impact is the absolute bee's knees, it's awesome at Epic being a hammer fighter. Especially if your Warlord buddy takes the encounter power that gives out +stat to hit against dazed creatures. Anyway, this is what I came up with. ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== The Hammer That Walks, level 25 Warforged, Fighter (Weaponmaster), Iron Vanguard, Marshal of Letherna Fighter Option: Combat Superiority Fighter Talents Option: Battlerager Vigor Sworn to Duty Option: Strength Brother in Battle (Brother in Battle Benefit) Theme: Elemental Initiate FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 27, CON 25, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 12 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 16, DEX 11, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 10 AC: 42 Fort: 49 Ref: 30 Will: 37 HP: 184 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 46 TRAINED SKILLS Athletics +23, Endurance +25, Intimidate +20, Nature +19 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Arcana +12, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Dungeoneering +14, Heal +14, History +12, Insight +14, Perception +14, Religion +12, Stealth +9, Streetwise +13, Thievery +9 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Elemental Initiate Attack: Disciplined Counter Warforged Racial Power: Warforged Resolve Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge Fighter Attack 1: Tide of Iron Fighter Attack 1: Threatening Rush Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat Fighter Utility 6: Kirre's Roar Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded Iron Vanguard Attack 11: Frontline Surge Iron Vanguard Utility 12: Inexorable Shift Fighter Attack 13: Anvil of Doom Fighter Attack 15: Boulder Charge Fighter Utility 16: Shield Clamor Fighter Attack 19: Reaving Strike Iron Vanguard Attack 20: Indomitable Strength Fighter Utility 22: Battle Furor Fighter Attack 23: Warrior's Urging Fighter Attack 25: Earthquake Smash FEATS Level 1: Bludgeon Expertise Level 2: Hammering Iron Level 4: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer) Level 6: Superior Fortitude Level 8: Warforged Superiority Level 10: Armor Proficiency: Plate Level 11: Hammer Rhythm Level 12: Hammer Shock Level 14: Hindering Shield Level 16: Stout Shield Level 18: Encouraging Shield Level 20: Raam's Maw Practice Level 21: Superior Will Level 22: Overwhelming Impact Level 24: Epic Fortitude ITEMS Summoned Tarrasque Plate Armor +6 x1 Shield of Deflection Heavy Shield (epic tier) x1 Feyslaughter Craghammer +5 x1 Periapt of Cascading Health +5 x1 Crownring of Tchazzar x1 Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier) x1 Belt of Vim (paragon tier) x1 Ring of the Dragonborn Emperor x1 Acrobat Boots x1 Antipathy Gloves x1 Lesser Ring of Feather Fall x1 ====== End ======
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 08:16
|
|
|
Hammer Rhythm is lovely, don't invest in missing. Take Weapon Focus instead. Craghammer proficiency is probably not worth it; it's half a point of damage over just using a warhammer. Craghammers are only worth using if you get proficiency free (i.e. Dwarven Weapon Training). If you're slowing things, make sure you have World Serpent's Grasp so your OAs and punishments can then knock the things prone. Keeping CAGI AND Warrior's Urging seems unnecessary. An E17 would probably serve you better than CAGI (Boggling Smash is solid). STR/CON is difficult to do well, generally. Your reflex and (to a lesser extent) will are basically free hits at this stage, when monsters have ~+29 to hit. There's probably more but I have to go play D&D.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 08:32
|
|
|
I'm making a bunch of level 4 premade characters for use as a library to do one-shots with, and I'm finding that I probably won't be able to make the backgrounds different or interesting. The workaround I'm thinking of is to add a little bit to all of the premades' gold budgets and then make the backgrounds basically alternative rewards. Is +8-10 health or an extra skill access or some rerolls basically a level 1 item? Also - what's the recommended budget for magic items & gold for a level 4 character? The places I could find that talked about it were a bit confusing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 09:12
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Hammer Rhythm is lovely, don't invest in missing. Take Weapon Focus instead. Craghammer proficiency is probably not worth it; it's half a point of damage over just using a warhammer. Craghammers are only worth using if you get proficiency free (i.e. Dwarven Weapon Training). If you're slowing things, make sure you have World Serpent's Grasp so your OAs and punishments can then knock the things prone. Keeping CAGI AND Warrior's Urging seems unnecessary. An E17 would probably serve you better than CAGI (Boggling Smash is solid). World Serpent's Grasp: This doesn't seem necessary. Right now on an OA he pushes 1 square, dazes, and prones them (Warforged Superiority). At epic, Craghammer is generating way more than half a point of damage, even on at-wills. I think you're right about Weapon Focus vs. Hammer Rhythm, but god drat is missing lame in this system, and when you're doubling up on Str/Con and using just a +2 proficiency weapon, the thought makes me ill. quote:STR/CON is difficult to do well, generally. Your reflex and (to a lesser extent) will are basically free hits at this stage, when monsters have ~+29 to hit. Yeah that part of it blows, DTAS and all that. One of the reasons I went with Marshal of Letherna over Indomitable Champion. My Reflex is going to be poo poo anyway and only the most bullshit monsters have really bad status effects on their Reflex attacks. I have been trolled before on low-Ref characters by dragons autohitting me with reaction pushes when I move, so that's why it helps to have a couple of large pulls. It's been really difficult sorting out this character because of the over-abundance of fighter feats.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2014 09:21
|
|
|
A lot of stuff dazes vs Ref. How is a craghammer ever doing more than .5 per [w]? Craghammer proficiency <<<< Weapon Focus FWIW. Unless you're getting a 7[W] power...
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 00:09
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:A lot of stuff dazes vs Ref. It's a full point on average, not half. The craghammer is Brutal 2. Though, I think you may be right overall. On the subject of brutal weapons, khopeshes are fun. Axe/Heavy Blade is a great type combo for feats. I wonder if you could do a build around maximizing the bullshit each side can do. Allstone posted:I'm making a bunch of level 4 premade characters for use as a library to do one-shots with, and I'm finding that I probably won't be able to make the backgrounds different or interesting. The workaround I'm thinking of is to add a little bit to all of the premades' gold budgets and then make the backgrounds basically alternative rewards. Is +8-10 health or an extra skill access or some rerolls basically a level 1 item? Also - what's the recommended budget for magic items & gold for a level 4 character? The places I could find that talked about it were a bit confusing. It's not a budget like the old days. It's 3 items, one each of level, level-1 and level+1.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 00:29
|
|
|
Echophonic posted:It's not a budget like the old days. It's 3 items, one each of level, level-1 and level+1. And level appropriate gold, think the number is the gold value of an item of level-1 but I don't remember off my head.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 00:41
|
|
|
Generic Octopus posted:And level appropriate gold, think the number is the gold value of an item of level-1 but I don't remember off my head. Yeah, I forgot that part, you have it right.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 01:06
|
|
|
Echophonic posted:It's a full point on average, not half. The craghammer is Brutal 2. Though, I think you may be right overall. Fnarg, true. I always forget that for some reason. Khopeshes are pretty bad though. Getting axe as a type gets you very little that heavy blade doesn't already, at the cost of a point of proficiency. Not worth it, to my mind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 01:17
|
|
|
I think Hammer Rhythm was considered good, or at least okay, on a Brutal Barrage build, so you do Con mod damage hit or miss. Speaking of Brutal Barrage I think there was a build for Brutal Barrage using the Khopesh. Grabbing the one feat to do extra damage on a prone target that axe gets, and the feat that heavy blades gets that lets you use an at will on an Opportunity Attack, giving the Battlemind a Brutal Barrage opportunity attack.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
I mean, even with stuff like Hammer Rhythm, you're still gonna be pretty good when you're dazing if not outright stunning enemies every single turn.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 05:20
|
|
|
Ryuujin posted:I think Hammer Rhythm was considered good, or at least okay, on a Brutal Barrage build, so you do Con mod damage hit or miss. Speaking of Brutal Barrage I think there was a build for Brutal Barrage using the Khopesh. Grabbing the one feat to do extra damage on a prone target that axe gets, and the feat that heavy blades gets that lets you use an at will on an Opportunity Attack, giving the Battlemind a Brutal Barrage opportunity attack. I dunno, that axe feat works with heavy blades too, and Heavy Blade Opportunity needs 15+ in two tertiary at best stats for the B-mind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 07:19
|
|
|
I remember liking using a khopesh for some reason, but yeah, axes want con and heavy blades want dex, not leaving you with a lot of room for other stuff. I mean, if you're doing Dwarven Weapon Training, a brutal 1 heavy blade could be worse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 07:55
|
|
|
The entire point of taking an axe is getting brutal [W] rolls and qualifying for a few +damage-focused powers. But yeah even Axe Expertise is kinda dumb compared to the side benefits on other expertise feats.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 08:55
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:I mean, even with stuff like Hammer Rhythm, you're still gonna be pretty good when you're dazing if not outright stunning enemies every single turn. Except you're not going to be dazing or stunning anything if you miss... If you're doing a brutal barrage battlemind, you're building completely differently to basically any defender, to be honest. You're going to be a top-tier striker, but not much of anything else. The axe doesn't get many +damage options. The only one that springs to mind is Deadly Axe which is pretty bad and Rending, which also goes on heavy blades. Now, spears...
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 09:36
|
|
|
Man, Runepriests are a hassle to pick feats for. I have no idea what to do with my level 20 pick. I have all the core stuff for the greatspear, have some damage boosting stuff, the usual defense boosters, but I'm totally out of ideas. Any good leadery feats I'm overlooking?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 06:05
|
|
|
Echophonic posted:Man, Runepriests are a hassle to pick feats for. I have no idea what to do with my level 20 pick. I have all the core stuff for the greatspear, have some damage boosting stuff, the usual defense boosters, but I'm totally out of ideas. Any good leadery feats I'm overlooking? What do you have? Also, get Mark of Healing if you can.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 06:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 12:52 |
|
|
If you were to throw in a houserule that any Weapon power used with a light blade can use DEX in place of the default ability mod, would it break the game in some way?
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 07:31
|
|