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mastajake posted:Maybe I'm just forgetting because I haven't read them in awhile but it seemed like most of the actual child abuse was going down in the first two books, and other than that they were just dicks. Whether they stopped being as bad because they felt it was in their best interest or because they realized he was a person is up in the air though. Fear was a big thing as they got the howler and then Sirus Black. I also remember them mentioning how they did not even have a picture of him, and they enjoyed his misfortune.
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Oct 26, 2014 06:42
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Otto Von Jizzmark posted:I don't know Harry was fed and clothed and given a roof over his head. They even took him to the zoo when he talked to the snake. They weren't beating the hell out of him or Mr duesley molesting him. Maybe they just didn't like him because he wasn't their kid and was a burden to a family that didn't have a lot to begin with. Uncle Vernon was a CEO of a drill company or something, they had plenty of money to buy Dudley new tvs computers bikes and poo poo every birthday.
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Oct 26, 2014 06:54
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Otto Von Jizzmark posted:I don't know Harry was fed and clothed and given a roof over his head. They even took him to the zoo when he talked to the snake. They weren't beating the hell out of him or Mr duesley molesting him. Maybe they just didn't like him because he wasn't their kid and was a burden to a family that didn't have a lot to begin with. He slept in a cupboard full of spiders while his cousin had two bedrooms for himself.
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Oct 26, 2014 07:00
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Otto Von Jizzmark posted:I don't know Harry was fed and clothed and given a roof over his head. They even took him to the zoo when he talked to the snake. They weren't beating the hell out of him or Mr duesley molesting him. Maybe they just didn't like him because he wasn't their kid and was a burden to a family that didn't have a lot to begin with. The only reason they took him to the zoo was due to them being unable to find anyone to watch him. They also thought of leaving him in the car, but Vernon did not want him to ruin his new car. They also had enough to send their kid to private school, but unwilling to even buy Harry new clothes. Their kid got a shitload of presents every year, and Harry got none or things like an old sock.
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Oct 26, 2014 07:03
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The main reason the Dursleys hated Harry so much is because they were really afraid of magic. Also Dumbledore threatened Petunia and Vernon and forced them to take Harry into their home. Petunia's late sister Lily would have accidentally performed magic when they were kids and that would have also made Petunia fearful of magic. Not to mention having to meet James, Sirius, and Peter, who were pretty cruel and probably played magical tricks on Petunia which also caused her to fear magic even more. It's also possible that Petunia was super jealous of her sister Lily and Lily's magical abilities (and possibly their parents thought Lily's magic was cool). Not to mention the bad shitstorm in the wizarding world later caused Lily's death (and then forced Petunia to have to keep interacting with magic due to Harry's presence in her home). On a side note, the biggest child abusers in the series were Severus Snape and Umbridge. Snape's motivations were probably very similar to Petunia's -- jealousy, and later loss, which really made him hate Harry a lot. Umbridge was just a sadistic bitch. Also, JK Rowling would also have been influenced by Charles Dickens. There's plenty of abused kids in Dickens' stories.
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Oct 26, 2014 07:41
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Inveigle posted:It's also possible that Petunia was super jealous of her sister Lily and Lily's magical abilities (and possibly their parents thought Lily's magic was cool). She was, she even wrote Dumbledore a letter begging to be let into Hogwarts.
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Oct 26, 2014 08:09
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 I had forgotten that! Midway through the books, Rowling had hinted at the idea that someone who was non-magical would suddenly get some type of magical abilities towards the end of the series. Fans thought that it would be either Filch, Dudley, or Petunia. A shame that Rowling never did anything with that idea. I had always hoped it might have been Petunia.
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Oct 26, 2014 09:52
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Inveigle posted:On a side note, the biggest child abusers in the series were Severus Snape and Umbridge. Snape's motivations were probably very similar to Petunia's -- jealousy, and later loss, which really made him hate Harry a lot. Umbridge was just a sadistic bitch. Snape's motivations were entirely jealousy and loss, mostly because he lost the love of his life to the guy who used to bully the poo poo out of him and he also had to teach and eventually protect their child who was pretty much James looking at him with Lily's eyes.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:40
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And I never read a single book. I was told, "oh, hey it gets really good and much more sophisticated," but I could just never make it more than 30 pages into The Philospher's Stone. This is probably because I was in my mid-20s when the book came out and couldn't make the more organic journey through the books that people who started the series as kids did. Edit I did really enjoy the film series and thought a lot of the philosophy of time stuff was really smart. Though I absolutely hated the Jesus parable ending. So cliche it hurts. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 23:13
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ZombieLenin posted:This is probably because I was in my mid-20s when the book came out and couldn't make the more organic journey through the books that people who started the series as kids did. My parents (who were very skeptical about the series, until I got my older sisters to read them) read them and loved them in their mid-fifties. So age is not necessarily an obstacle at all.
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Oct 26, 2014 23:31
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thexerox123 posted:My parents (who were very skeptical about the series, until I got my older sisters to read them) read them and loved them in their mid-fifties. So age is not necessarily an obstacle at all. No, you're right. It certainly wasn't for a lot of people I knew (including my dad). I'm just thinking it was probably the primary obstacle to me. If I wanted to "read" the books, I probably should have started at book 3 or something. My OCD just wouldn't let me. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 23:38
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Mercury Hat posted:First off, what you went through is horrible and I'm sorry. Thanks for the sympathy, and sorry for taking a while to get back here. I guess I'd have to side with the Roald Dahl theory, it fits very well with the series' thematic references to other children's lit. It makes sense given that Harry seems to brush off frighteningly awful abuse as though it was simply boring or something. From what I read of everyone's responses there will be more revealed about the older wizard's motivations so it may actually get worse. But if his treatment gets better, even slightly, I suppose I can handle it. I still feel it's wildly inappropriate and disrespectful and has opened up a lens that makes me view an otherwise lighthearted children's coming of age adventure series in a dark light. Otto Von Jizzmark posted:I don't know Harry was fed and clothed and given a roof over his head. They even took him to the zoo when he talked to the snake. They weren't beating the hell out of him or Mr duesley molesting him. Maybe they just didn't like him because he wasn't their kid and was a burden to a family that didn't have a lot to begin with. You are a shithead and shouldn't talk about things you don't know or care enough to learn about.
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Oct 27, 2014 00:22
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Mercury Hat posted:First off, what you went through is horrible and I'm sorry. I thought they said that deatheaters could not attack him while he was at his home. That is why they had to wait until his 18th birthday to attack. However, you are right that for a long time he was treating him as a human shield until he met him. He really did believe in the phrase "for the greater good", but in a less take over the world way.
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Oct 27, 2014 00:26
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bobkatt013 posted:I thought they said that deatheaters could not attack him while he was at his home. That is why they had to wait until his 18th birthday to attack. For as much authority as the Harry Potter wiki has, it does agree that he was protected from the death eaters as well. It would make the most sense, I just thought that it was anti-Voldemort only and the death eaters never bothered because they were all mostly pretending they weren't criminals to begin with.
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Oct 27, 2014 01:40
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That's mentioned towards the end of the fifth, or sixth book. Until Harry turns 17 (and I just now realized why Rowling made the age of maturity for wizards), if he spends like one month living with a blood relative of his mother he's got some level of protection from Voldemort and his crew.
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Oct 27, 2014 02:04
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TheModernAmerican posted:
The Dursley segments are basically just used as narrative devices to bookend the story. You could skip them without too much trouble. I'm sure someone with the books on hand could figure out what chapters to start on and give a quick summary of anything vital missed.
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Oct 27, 2014 04:05
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TheModernAmerican posted:Anyway I've been devouring the series, putting my normal podcasting schedule out of whack as I've finished the first two books in one week but I've noticed that going through the first few chapters has been a chore, taking me the better part of two days of going through one to five minute chunks before moving on to something else. Hrm, good question. I think it's a couple of different things. Partly as was mentioned above it's that there's a tradition of horrible parents of victimized orphans in English literature, especially in Roald Dahl and Dickens, both of whom seem to have been really big influences on Rowling. More importantly though there's a reason that authors like Rowling, Dickens, and Dahl start their stories like this, and I think it's that the books are escapist fantasy and escapist fantasy generally means an escape from something fairly horrible. Most people reading the story of Harry's life are going to 1) stop thinking about their own problems because Harry's are initially worse, and then 2) Harry gets a literally magical ticket away from all his problems! I, the escapism-seeking reader, may one day find my own fantastical ticket away from my problems too! Wouldn't that be nice! And then the rest of the story happens. As to why he has to keep coming back, there are some in-narrative explanations for that later in the series. More to the point though I think Rowling wanted that "horrible life --> escape into magic" dynamic to happen in every book, since it's one of the engines that drives the fantasy. Just like Harry, you, the reader, get to escape from your horrible life into this magical fantasy. That type of explicit in-narrative labeling of the story as "ESCAPIST FANTASY HERE, LOOK HE LITERALLY ESCAPES" may seem redundant or unnecessary to readers who've read a lot of other modern fantasy, but it's part of why the books had such mainstream popular appeal. That fantasy of escape is the "hook" that brings you back. Plus she's always careful to show the Dursleys getting comeuppance and Harry getting some appropriate degree of vengeance in every sequence, whether it's Vernon getting frightened out of his wits in the first book or whatever else. SO that's part of the fantasy too. It's difficult to deal with and vivid because Rowling's a good writer and she's got a good eye for human character and she understands how neglect and abuse happens and so she writes it believably. If you're interested in fictional chronicles of child abuse, I'd recommend checking out David Copperfield as well. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 05:13
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TheModernAmerican posted:
What else do I need to learn about Harry potter outside of reading the books and watching the movies? Do you have a source explaining all Harry's abuse outside of these? Secret details about the extent of the physical and possible sexual abuse thrust upon the boy who lived. He was an orphan who was unloved by his guardians. He was also an annoying wunderkind the type you'd like to bean in the back of the head with a rock. " oh look there goes harry potter" "Harry saved the day again" sorry slithering and hufflepuff thanks to Harry potter 100 points to gryffendor you loose. Got an important dinner party sorry Harry and his magical friends will ruin it.
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Oct 27, 2014 06:54
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thexerox123 posted:My parents (who were very skeptical about the series, until I got my older sisters to read them) read them and loved them in their mid-fifties. So age is not necessarily an obstacle at all. My dad was the same way. I did a book report on the first book when I was eleven (the same age as Harry!  ) that made my dad conclude that the books were really stupid, but I after a while I got him to read some to me at bedtime and he was hooked. He compared them to the Hardy Boys books he read when he was a child himself, "except they're good." I switched to reading to him and it was surprising how much he enjoyed it. The night I read him the scene in CoS where Lucius Malfoy suspends Dumbledore as headmaster, my mom came in and scolded him for keeping me up so late. He explained that he was sorry, but he was just so invested in the political intrigue that he had to know what happened next!Later on I read the books to Mom, and she liked them pretty well too (though not as enthusiastically as Dad did). Her one complaint was that the Quidditch sequences bored her; sports were never her thing.
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Oct 27, 2014 06:58
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I'm so sorry for what happened to you. That's awful. You seemed distressed at no one else taking the events in the book as abuse. If it helps, I think large parts of the fandom do see the Dursley's actions as abuse. I remember lots of discussions of how hosed up the actions of the Dursleys, Dumbledore, Snape, and Umbridge are. Also, one of the better fanfics I've read was from the point of view of Dudley slowly realizing that the way his family treats Harry is not normal. (Trigger warnings, obviously, but if anyone is interested: link. Also, I haven't read fanfic in years, so maybe this actually sucks?) As other have mentioned, the series starts of as Dahlian fairy tale, and the grownups ranging from monstrous to merely grossly incompetent fits with that. As the series goes on, however, things get grittier and more "realistic." I think that's a big part of why the ending is so dissatisfying. All the horrors and dangers become more and more real, but their resolution is purely fairy tale. It's dissonant.
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Oct 27, 2014 10:38
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Otto Von Jizzmark posted:What else do I need to learn about Harry potter outside of reading the books and watching the movies? Do you have a source explaining all Harry's abuse outside of these? Secret details about the extent of the physical and possible sexual abuse thrust upon the boy who lived. I'm glad the only kind of abuse in the world is physical and sexual, great, loving cool. When you have kids, try locking them in a closet for 99% of the day for the entirety of summer and see how they turn out. Or maybe bring in the extended family and spend an entire week ridiculing and teasing a 13 year old I'm sure they'd just pass it off as good fun. But no you're right, you got to hit kids for it to "count" or touch them, that's the only way to gently caress with people. I knew I shouldn't of brought this poo poo up, there's always terrible assholes like you running around.
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Oct 27, 2014 10:59
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Inveigle posted:The main reason the Dursleys hated Harry so much is because they were really afraid of magic. This is my theory too. The Dursleys were terrified of wizards in general, and Harry in particular. I think it's mostly down to Petunia. She knew what Azkaban was, and what dementors were, plus, her sister was murdered by the most powerful and evil dark wizard of the time. That's enough to make you believe the wizarding world isn't the super fun happy land they make it out to be. Her resentment of her sister may be partially due to the fact that if she hadn't been a witch, she'd still be alive. (though initial jealousy at not having magical powers herself played a part.) Initially, they treated Harry like crap because they thought keeping him downtrodden would keep the magic out of him. They wanted him to be as "normal" and boring as possible, going so far as to bitch at him for having imaginative dreams. I can only guess they kept treating him like crap after book 2 out of fear, since after that point, they couldn't stop him from becoming a wizard. As far as Dumbledore (and wizards in general) was concerned, I think he was misguided, but genuinely didn't think Harry had it that bad. I have two reasons for this theory. For one thing, punishments in the wizarding world used to be incredibly harsh, Filtch mentioned detention used to mean being hung by the thumbs in the dungeons, and even in modern times, being sent into the forest wasn't the nicest thing to have done to you. For another thing, from Dumbledore's perspective, the Dursleys were far crueler to their son than to Harry, though it's up to the reader to speculate why he thought this. I do wish we had some well-developped, kind muggles in the series. As is, there were only Hermoine's parents, who are barely in the books, and the prime minister, who was just there to be annoyed by the minister for magic. (and in my head was James Hacker.)
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Oct 27, 2014 13:02
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TheModernAmerican posted:But no you're right, you got to hit kids for it to "count" or touch them, that's the only way to gently caress with people. I'm pretty sure Dudley and his buddies beat Harry up on a regular basis so they covered the physical abuse angle as well. Bad Wolf posted:This is my theory too. The Dursleys were terrified of wizards in general, and Harry in particular. I think it's mostly down to Petunia. The normal point is important too because the Dursleys were the types who placed tremendous importance on conformity, keeping up with the Joneses, etc. So having someone like Harry who existed outside their conception of normal polite society just didn't fit with their social aspirations.
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Oct 27, 2014 13:46
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Bad Wolf posted:(and in my head was James Hacker.) I think this was true for just about everyone, or at least everyone who's seen Yes Minister. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was imagining Jim Hacker as she wrote.
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Oct 27, 2014 14:05
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I started reading he series as a kid and just figured the lovely way Harry was treated was just the steps you had to take into order for magic happy times to start. Like a running start to jump through the looking glass, instead of just falling down the rabbit hole. I wonder what'd it come across as now, reading it as an adult with it nearly brand new. I never did finish the series, shamefully. If it weren't for the movie I'd never have known what happened in the end. Does the final book differ much from the movie?
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Oct 27, 2014 17:20
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Bad Wolf posted:I do wish we had some well-developped, kind muggles in the series. As is, there were only Hermoine's parents, who are barely in the books, and the prime minister, who was just there to be annoyed by the minister for magic. (and in my head was James Hacker.) The Other Minister is actually probably my favourite chapter in the entire series.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:24
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Wedemeyer posted:I never did finish the series, shamefully. If it weren't for the movie I'd never have known what happened in the end. Does the final book differ much from the movie? The major points of the book are covered in the two films. Thankfully, the writers excised the ridiculous talky bits between Harry and Voldemort during their final duel.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:29
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JohnSherman posted:The major points of the book are covered in the two films. Thankfully, the writers excised the ridiculous talky bits between Harry and Voldemort during their final duel.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:35
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Urdnot Fire posted:To be honest, I actually missed the way Harry kept taunting Voldemort and calling him "Tom". Also the entire (still living) cast watching the duel and exploding into insane cheers when Voldemort dropped was a moment of catharsis I felt was missing from the last film. The best addition was that, instead of "dead" Harry putting on the cloak and slipping away and causing a bunch of confusion, he literally just gets up and scampers off and Ron just kind of smirks with an "oh that Harry" look.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:56
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Also the last movie, after trying to say that your House doesn't matter and that people can show traits from other Houses and we sort too early, they throw the Slytherins in the dungeons to the cheers and applause of the other students and teachers.
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Oct 27, 2014 20:37
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bobjr posted:Also the last movie, after trying to say that your House doesn't matter and that people can show traits from other Houses and we sort too early, they throw the Slytherins in the dungeons to the cheers and applause of the other students and teachers. I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the Slytherins being the Carrows' enforcement squad during the year
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Oct 27, 2014 21:11
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bobjr posted:Also the last movie, after trying to say that your House doesn't matter and that people can show traits from other Houses and we sort too early, they throw the Slytherins in the dungeons to the cheers and applause of the other students and teachers. Wait, what? I never saw the last film, what's the context of this?
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Oct 27, 2014 21:15
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howe_sam posted:I'm sure a lot of that had to do with the Slytherins being the Carrows' enforcement squad during the year Also desire to turn Harry over. In the book they point out that its just one that wants to do it, but the movie they just toss them all into that category. Yet they still show Slughorn fighting for them.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:19
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And yet, Slytherin isn't supposed to be the evil house...I'm glad I skipped the movie.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:23
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Wittgen posted:I'm so sorry for what happened to you. That's awful. There actually was a bit when Harry was leaving the house for the last time where Dudley is basically having to fight through all of the conditioning his parents put him through to apologize to Harry for how he treated him and say goodbye to him. It was ruined by making a comedic moment out of it, but it was there. EDIT: Regarding the movies, I never get tired of this clip on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYWT5Q_R_w
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Oct 29, 2014 15:19
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Here is the new story Its a bit interesting, but learned really nothing new. quote:The story of Dolores Jane Umbridge
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Oct 31, 2014 15:32
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TheModernAmerican posted:But if his treatment gets better, even slightly, I suppose I can handle it. It does. I would say it gets significantly better. Starting with the end of the 3rd book when Harry gets home from Hogwarts and says "Oh, yeah, that murderer they were looking for, he's my godfather. And he really really cares about me. So don't gently caress with me anymore, k?". Which continues at the beginning of the 4th book. At the end of the 5th book, after Harry has seen some poo poo a bunch of fully qualified wizards again re-iterate to the Dursleys that they are to NOT gently caress with Harry in any way. So yeah, at first I agree it's pretty bad, but it does get better.
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Oct 31, 2014 16:35
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bobkatt013 posted:Here is the new story Yeah more of a character sketch than a story. I liked Rowling's note accompanying it though: quote:Once, long ago, I took instruction in a certain skill or subject (I am being vague as vague can be, for reasons that are about to become obvious), and in doing so, came into contact with a teacher or instructor whom I disliked intensely on sight.
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Oct 31, 2014 17:10
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TheModernAmerican posted:I'm glad the only kind of abuse in the world is physical and sexual, great, loving cool. 99% of the summer what books are you reading I don't remember that. Harry turned put just fine he managed to have a stable relationship with his high school sweetheart long enough to get married and have kids. In fact throughout the books he seemed quite well adjusted he had friends several teachers and peers thought highly of him despite having several life threatening encounters. It's safe to say Harry potter turned put ok perhaps for the better by the humbling experience of being raised by the dursleys. Maybe his parents would have spoiled him rotten what with all that gold and he would have been just like Malfoy. Like Harry I think the youth of today need to stop blaming their parents and whining about how they were mistreated, unloved, or didnt get that pony. It's best to grow up and take responsibility for yourself and decide that your future is on your own shoulders. Harry did it so can you.
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Nov 1, 2014 06:35
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Otto Von Jizzmark posted:99% of the summer what books are you reading I don't remember that. Harry turned put just fine he managed to have a stable relationship with his high school sweetheart long enough to get married and have kids. In fact throughout the books he seemed quite well adjusted he had friends several teachers and peers thought highly of him despite having several life threatening encounters. It's safe to say Harry potter turned put ok perhaps for the better by the humbling experience of being raised by the dursleys. Maybe his parents would have spoiled him rotten what with all that gold and he would have been just like Malfoy.
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Nov 1, 2014 07:25
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