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Peven Stan posted:You can't leave china and start posting like an adult soon enough, either Somebody has alot of personal issues and uses a Chinese thread on an internet forum to work it out.
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Oct 26, 2014 20:02
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Don't sign your posts
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Oct 26, 2014 20:13
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Peven Stan posted:You can't leave china and start posting like an adult soon enough, either Per the Ebolavirus thread, zimboe posted:I'm not worried at all. The Chinese are chronically cautious about contagion since SARS, Avian Flu and now Dengue. quote:Why are you so confident? Tell me, what would happen in China in the following scenarios: I'll leave these here, since I would truly appreciate opinions on any of these scenarios informed by first-hand knowledge of Chinese systems. I know how protocol in most of the high-risk nations would work like in India, which would range from "Holy poo poo extremely poorly" to "They're rich, they're already in mandatory isolation 24/7 in their slum-skyscraper." I'm unsure of how China's institutions would handle any of these scenarios, and whether it would be worse to have a case importation amongst a lower-class physical laborer, or upper-class Beijing elite.
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Oct 26, 2014 20:24
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While I think China might handle a case or two okay, anyone who thinks that China could handle an actual outbreak has never been inside a Chinese public hospital.
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Oct 26, 2014 23:00
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VideoTapir posted:While I think China might handle a case or two okay, anyone who thinks that China could handle an actual outbreak has never been inside a Chinese public hospital. I'd like to hear more about Chinese public hospitals.
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Oct 26, 2014 23:03
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Peven Stan posted:You can't leave china and start posting like an adult soon enough, either I think he is a cool and good adult poster, and hope he stays Arakan posted:Don't sign your posts Lol icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 23:16
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Arakan posted:Don't sign your posts aha
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Oct 26, 2014 23:26
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zimboe posted:The Chinese are rather less personally oriented than, say, Americans, and tend to be team players. This is embedded in the culture itself- possibly because of the historical influence of Confucianism. Wow it sounds like Zimboe got all his information from a Confucius Institute. This guy seems really determined to spread his ignorance too. iceaim fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 01:46
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'll leave these here, since I would truly appreciate opinions on any of these scenarios informed by first-hand knowledge of Chinese systems. I know how protocol in most of the high-risk nations would work like in India, which would range from "Holy poo poo extremely poorly" to "They're rich, they're already in mandatory isolation 24/7 in their slum-skyscraper." I'm unsure of how China's institutions would handle any of these scenarios, and whether it would be worse to have a case importation amongst a lower-class physical laborer, or upper-class Beijing elite. It's really hard to say how "China" would react to Ebola cases because the whole healthcare system is so fragmented and de-centralised. If there was a case in Shanghai I'd have a relatively high degree of confidence it would be dealt with effectively. If it was in Shanxi? Not so much.
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Oct 27, 2014 01:50
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I've had enough conversations in East Asia about how germ theory isn't real that I would not trust any kind of quarantine effort here. I've been to one hospital in China. It wasn't even a public hospital, it was a nice one for expats doing the exams for getting visas. Still couldn't even manage to get soap in a bathroom. Sanitation and hygiene are rare here but I figured at least a loving hospital would have soap. Nooooope. They did have an ebola screening thing at the door. Everyone lines up before you can go in and you fill out a form in English about travel history/if you've felt sick/etc. The person working the desk does not speak English and does not look at the form, just tosses it in the pile. Then you get the forehead thermometer and go in. With the constant spitting everywhere and nobody ever washes their hands, even with it being limited to body fluid contact I don't think it'd matter much here. Unless it doesn't live in spit.
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Oct 27, 2014 01:59
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Can you imagine the horror of a China with only 700 million people in it?
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Oct 27, 2014 02:07
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Grand Fromage posted:Unless it doesn't live in spit. It lives in spit.
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Oct 27, 2014 02:07
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Grand Fromage posted:I've had enough conversations in East Asia about how germ theory isn't real that I would not trust any kind of quarantine effort here. That reminds me, had a conversation with a senior member of the Food and Drug Agency here in Shanghai about how Ebola wasn't a major risk in China because it only really affects black people, same as how SARS only really affected Asian people and the Plague only affected white people. So, yeah, there's that.
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Oct 27, 2014 02:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:Per the Ebolavirus thread, Please do not quote zimboe across threads, or ever.
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Oct 27, 2014 02:54
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AgentSythe posted:Please do not quote zimboe across threads, or ever. Counter-request: Please continue to quote him as much as possible lol
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Oct 27, 2014 03:31
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goldboilermark posted:Counter-request: Please continue to quote him as much as possible lol zimboe posted:The facility was established after the 2003 SARS epidemic. They used to just landfill the waste and this was recognized as a possible spreading center because people scavenge it for glass, stainless steel, wire, and syringes. zimboe posted:I dunno. Tl;dr, Zimboe makes China beautiful and clean by incinerating all medical waste by burning them with carcinogens to make power. From my impression of this thread, Zimboe posts as if it were opposite-day in China, every day. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 03:47
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obama is conspiring with the yellow man to bring ebola to America and usher in an era of Red Chinese dominance
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Oct 27, 2014 03:49
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icantfindaname posted:obama is conspiring with the yellow man to bring ebola to America and usher in an era of Red Chinese dominance Truly, he is a Manchurian Candidate.
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Oct 27, 2014 03:49
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People who don't want China to get ravaged by Ebola make me sick
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Oct 27, 2014 04:06
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Really, at this point it's a toss-up over who gets it first: China or India.
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Oct 27, 2014 04:12
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Fojar38 posted:I'd like to hear more about Chinese public hospitals. I went to a neighborhood health center in Beijing to see a dentist. Besides the usual blood-stained rags lying about (they looked like they'd been washed, at least), and general dinginess, this guy's office had clearly not been cleaned, AT ALL, in a while. There was like dried...spit? Pus? Mouthwash? I honestly don't wanna know, all over the instrument trays and the lamp and some of the other equipment. I'm not sure he cleaned his instruments, either. This dentist's office looked like a bathroom sink after about a month or two of not being cleaned. And he didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with that. There are good hospitals and clinics in China, but most of them are private. Even some of the more high-profile public hospitals in Beijing (Chaoyang Hospital), though they aren't as bad as the aforementioned are still dirtier than you'd ever see in the US. Combine that with street-making GBS threads, high population densities with hit-or-miss access to clean toilets, and a population which is not universally familiar with the concept of germs, and I think you've got a recipe for disaster. The only thing China has going for it is that they DO have some good hospitals and doctors, and they'll probably clamp down on any cases they find hard and fast; if they find them soon enough. It'll be tough for Ebola to get into China, I think, but not tough for it to spread if it does.
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Oct 27, 2014 04:59
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So what did you catch from the dentist? Or did you run away?
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Oct 27, 2014 05:05
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Are medical positions venal offices like I'm assuming they are, and what do the different prices look like?
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Oct 27, 2014 05:06
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simplefish posted:So what did you catch from the dentist? Or did you run away? Nothing. I let him look at my teeth, he told me I didn't actually need any work done (NOT THAT I WOULD HAVE DONE IT THERE) and I left. I had a filling replaced at Chaoyang Hospital which was dirty enough to make me uneasy. Fortunately it was small and not very deep, and the dentist did a really good job, despite the facilities. My Imaginary GF posted:Are medical positions venal offices like I'm assuming they are, and what do the different prices look like? Sort of. I've heard you're supposed to tip the doctor in some places. Generally they get a cut of the drugs they prescribe to you, so they over-prescribe antibiotics and IV fluids. Public hospitals are cheap. I think total for a couple doctor visits, antibiotics, and stitches after my bike accident was something like 200 or 300 RMB. That one might have been quasi-public, though. I'm not entirely sure, it was just the nearest to my home at the time. I mostly had dental work done in China, though, and prices range from 1/2 US prices at the high end for private clinics with western-trained doctors, down to about 1/600th US prices for wisdom tooth extraction at 3rd-tier-city public Hellraiser hospitals.
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Oct 27, 2014 05:17
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VideoTapir posted:Sort of. I've heard you're supposed to tip the doctor in some places. Generally they get a cut of the drugs they prescribe to you, so they over-prescribe antibiotics and IV fluids. Oh, thats informative. I should clarify my original question though, I was wondering about the position itself. Like if you wanted to be a doctor in China, what would an appointmrnt to a 3rd-tier-city public hell cost versus a general position at a Beijing hospital? The more and more I learn about China, the more I come to the opinion that the Chinese system resembles pre-Revolution France and is waiting for a period of economic contraction before tax revolts begin.
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Oct 27, 2014 06:29
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Hehe no the great thing about is that in China all taxes accrue to the central government, which then decides how funds get parceled out to city and state level bodies. So no one really ever sees the benefit of their taxes. Doctors' wages in China (and government employee wages in general) are hilariously hosed up. Their pay scale hasn't been updated in ages so a doctor or mayor earns less than what a Foxconn assembly line worker does. It's amazing they've managed to do this because people were seriously writing letters to the government about how this practice bred corruption and ruined the public service sector in the late 19th century! It's been a persistent problem for the last 150 years and it's somehow made a comeback as of the 1990s. So doctors basically live on bribes and kickbacks from pharmacies. Well, bribes if you want to be uncharitable, an informal private payment system if you want to be charitable. Everyone knows the pay scale makes no sense but it still makes everyone miserable. Doctors hate having to rush patients through the door for bribes/kickbacks and spend their time worrying about money rather than doctoring, patients hate having to pay bribes and having to go into every negotiation blind. Getting sent to a 3rd tier nowhere hole means you're going to be living on One thing I will say for the Chinese system is that it's done a good job deploying basic care to a huge population, even in areas with rural poverty. Even in Nowhere, Fuckistan SAR you can generally access cheap antibiotics and someone with 2-3 years of medical training. How it would respond to Ebola is a different thing but I think we can say it would be better than Sierra Leone or Liberia but probably not as good as a CDC response. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Oct 28, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 06:47
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 You have no idea how close that medical system you described is to most healthcare services in Sub-Saharan Africa, only with much less regular pay from the central government, much less drugs to hand out that the national governments don't get a kickback for, and how much less able to directly bribe with money the local population can be.China's healthcare system sounds a lot like Guinea's and Nigeria's to me. I can only imagine how equipment is distributed like PPE and how closely training protocols are followed.
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Oct 27, 2014 06:57
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Mmm well for the basic health care thing I was describing the rural poor areas which probably are more like West Africa than a first tier city. China has internal barriers to migration that allow them to have very different levels of services in rural and urban populations without the urban services being totally overwhelmed. Large cities have dozens of hospitals of diverse quality. Top level hospitals, whether private hospitals run by foreign companies or top-tier public hospitals that serve wealthy and high-placed populations provide world-class service. One thing China has going for it is SARS and other infectious disease scares, and ironically the terrible air pollution, so most urban residents already have face masks (I know I do) and know to hide away in their apartments if there's a scary epidemic on the news.
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Oct 27, 2014 09:27
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Arglebargle III posted:Mmm well for the basic health care thing I was describing the rural poor areas which probably are more like West Africa than a first tier city. China has internal barriers to migration that allow them to have very different levels of services in rural and urban populations without the urban services being totally overwhelmed. Large cities have dozens of hospitals of diverse quality. Top level hospitals, whether private hospitals run by foreign companies or top-tier public hospitals that serve wealthy and high-placed populations provide world-class service. How about people in the middle? If a Foxconn worker gets cancer, what chance do they have? The system really isn't very different than the former Soviet Union (including Russia) it sounds like, although in the former USSR state hospitals usually always require a bribe for beyond the most basic service and in big cities, especially Moscow, there are foreign/private hospitals. An average worker if he gets cancer over here, would probably beg his extended family for money,cash out his/her savings and sell his/her flat to get enough for a state doctor to give him service. A few years ago a big deal was made that China had started a public insurance system, but the system worked inverse to level of medical infrastructure you were using, county clinic were mostly covered while big cities were not. It sounds like it couldn't make a real difference though on real care if it works on a bribe system anyway. They may get those antibiotics cheap for example, but surgery or lab work?
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Oct 27, 2014 11:06
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If we could somehow run an experiment with a control China and a China that lost a few hundred million people to epidemic, then run the clock forward to 2115, I would be very surprised if post-epidemic China didn't score higher on a wide range of development and quality of life metrics including PPP, unemployment rate and life expectancy to say nothing of environmental metrics. That's all I'll say about that.
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Oct 27, 2014 12:50
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Arglebargle's time in China will later be remembered as a supervillain origin story.
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Oct 27, 2014 16:02
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You don't have to live here very long to realize how great an idea the one child policy is. Way too many people.
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Oct 27, 2014 16:10
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Grand Fromage posted:You don't have to live here very long to realize how great an idea the one child policy is. Way too many people. yeah the one child policy did absolutely gently caress all to population
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Oct 27, 2014 16:18
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It did skew the gender ratios significantly.
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Oct 27, 2014 16:38
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Okay, that's true. I meant in terms of numerical trends, not gender balance.
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Oct 27, 2014 16:54
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simplefish posted:Okay, that's true. I meant in terms of numerical trends, not gender balance. It did limit population growth but didn't halt it, and it has remained more or less stable across the 2000s. Of course you also now have the issue of very soon an inverted age pyramid and gender imbalances. That said, India also has been a decline over time, it is just much higher than China.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:00
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Arglebargle III posted:If we could somehow run an experiment with a control China and a China that lost a few hundred million people to epidemic, then run the clock forward to 2115, I would be very surprised if post-epidemic China didn't score higher on a wide range of development and quality of life metrics including PPP, unemployment rate and life expectancy to say nothing of environmental metrics. That's all I'll say about that. Is this based on the "Black Plague led to the Renaissance" idea?
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Oct 27, 2014 17:08
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VideoTapir posted:Is this based on the "Black Plague led to the Renaissance" idea? Or how the Titanic lead to actual good safety standards.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:09
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Ardennes posted:It did limit population growth but didn't halt it, and it has remained more or less stable across the 2000s. Of course you also now have the issue of very soon an inverted age pyramid and gender imbalances. Fertility rates were falling long before the One Child Policy If you want to see how little the One Child Policy mattered, just compare it to another country in the region that didn't - like, for instance, Hong Kong. http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$ma...i98_t001935,,,, or the USA why not? http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_WPP2010_TFR_1.htm Despite the China figures going a bit mental near a peak (but this is '60s China we're talking about) the overall trends are strikingly similar. One Child Policy was 1979. If you want to be generous, you could argue that the CCP were making noises at people to breed less at the earliest 1970. The decline started steeply and in the (first two years of the) '60s. It was a poo poo policy that did nothing except push the gender balance way way out of kilter. simplefish fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 17:24
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simplefish posted:Fertility rates were falling long before the One Child Policy Hong Kong is a pretty different situation since it is a Westernized city state. I think this a policy that has a lot of problems but it probably much more fair to compare it to India which has a had a more gradual decline. Most of the decline does seem to be happening in the 1970s. There was a drop in the late 1950s/early 1960s but the 1970s drop is a lot harder. Of course, during the early 1960s, there were other governmental policies impacting the population that reduced growth rates. I think it is a pretty strong armed policy but I don't think that drastic decline in the 1970s was accidental.
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Oct 27, 2014 17:47
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