|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOA51pX6YLE A side project while I wait for Operation Serpent's soundtrack.
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 00:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 12:09 |
|
|
Nokiaman posted:So what mappack for DOOM2 would you guys recommend for me if I wanted lot of shooting and less scavenging for keycards for the maximum Brutal DOOM action? I don't mean literal monster spam though Doom 2 Reloaded and DTWID worked really well for me with Brutal Doom. If you have BFG Edition, NRFTL also plays good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 01:11
|
|
|
laserghost posted:Doom 2 Reloaded and DTWID worked really well for me with Brutal Doom. If you have BFG Edition, NRFTL also plays good. Thanks for the suggestions! If you have any more do post them please 
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 08:59
|
|
|
Rocket Pan posted:In the off chance somebody is at all interested, I'm currently stress testing/working out any issues in a bumped up player limit in ZDoom. Seeing as the logical conclusion is 255 players, I grabbed some random guy over the internet and thew 253 additional bots at a deathmatch game. You're doing god's work.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 10:03
|
|
|
For those who still don't have it Blood has a Steam sale now for 2.49€
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 18:44
|
|
|
Back on the subject of goofy 3D models and static image screens, I stumbled upon this on Doomworld: How sensual. This still takes the cake, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
Nokiaman posted:Thanks for the suggestions! If you have any more do post them please Enjay Doom II and Vilecore were pretty Brutal-friendly, I believe. I've been having trouble making it work with more contemporary WADs that put way too many enemies or "gotchas" in them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 21:26
|
|
Shadow Hog posted:Back on the subject of goofy 3D models and static image screens, I stumbled upon this on Doomworld: There's something totally radical about that screenshot that makes me want to play PSX games, though.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2014 22:46
|
|
|
If Doom on PSX was a typical for the platform third-person shooter/platformer, it would look something like this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
Is the steam version of Blood any good? I read one of the reviews saying it's a terrible port.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 00:37
|
|
|
BillyMays posted:Is the steam version of Blood any good? I read one of the reviews saying it's a terrible port. It's not a port, they just bundled it with Dosbox. Grab the original files from it and you can do what you want with them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 00:40
|
|
|
BillyMays posted:Is the steam version of Blood any good? I read one of the reviews saying it's a terrible port. The port is just dosbox running it and with the right dosbox settings it runs fine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 00:40
|
|
|
GOG is getting LucasArts games and that can only mean Outlaws on the horizon 
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 01:54
|
|
|
Does Outlaws actually still run, since it's not a DOS game?
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 01:59
|
|
|
Nokiaman posted:For those who still don't have it Blood has a Steam sale now for 2.49€ Blood 2 is also on for the same price. If anyone picks it up, I highly recommend the Extra Crispy fan mod which cleans up the model/textures a bit and attempts to re-balance the weapon damage and monster health. http://www.moddb.com/mods/blood-2-the-chosen-extra-crispy
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 02:11
|
|
|
Vakal posted:Blood 2 is also on for the same price. I've never been terribly fond of the texture changes (it just looks like they were tossed through a filter in Photoshop to me) but the rebalancing (and decals staying longer) certainly sound interesting, and it's been a while since I last tried it. Wouldn't mind Blood 2 and Shogo getting source ports either, they could certainly use some more stability.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 02:45
|
|
|
BillyMays posted:Is the steam version of Blood any good? I read one of the reviews saying it's a terrible port. With this guide it's fairly bearable. Maybe one day we'll get proper source port  Grimthwacker posted:Enjay Doom II and Vilecore were pretty Brutal-friendly, I believe. I've been having trouble making it work with more contemporary WADs that put way too many enemies or "gotchas" in them. Nokiaman fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 09:52
|
|
|
Someone brought up Mercenary, Escape from Targ in the retro computer thread, and I thought here would be a better place to talk about it. It's essentially a sandbox game. You crash land on Targ, you explore, you can work for one of two warring factions to make money, you can dick around in bought or stolen vehicles (ground and air based) and you can eventually escape the planet. Before the interweb, you basically had no hope of figuring out how to finish the game, so you'd spend most of your time flying around looking for landmarks - you could traverse the entire planet (fly long enough in one direction and you'd end up where you started) but it was pretty sparse due to the memory limitations of the day. Aside from the surface, there were pretty large underground complexes, and a space station, which formed the on-foot, corridor based sections. So it's not a 'shooter' per se, but when I saw how early it was I was pretty amazed. It's actually the earliest (1985) example of a smothe first-person 'in-the-head' view I can find, certainly on home machines. Everything else was 90 degree turns, moving on a grid sort of movement. Mercenary is closer to Battlezone, as uses vector graphics. But Mercenary has indoor locations, with the familiar doors, keys, lifts, etc. It was a couple of years later that raycasting techniques allowed for smothe movement. You can actually download an officially sanctioned remake MDD Clone for Windows, which includes the Amiga/ST sequels. EvilGenius fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 19:48
|
|
|
EvilGenius posted:Someone brought up Mercenary, Escape from Targ in the retro computer thread, and I thought here would be a better place to talk about it. It's kind of interesting to note how insanely ambitious some of those pre-Wolf3D shooters could get (see also Bethesda's Terminator game), and how pretty much all of that ambition disappeared after Wolf3D and Doom. Maybe that just speaks to the value of targeting a narrowly defined experience and really nailing it, but I feel like we lost something in the rush to clone iD's games after 1992.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 21:12
|
|
|
Lork posted:Rad. It's funny you should say that, cos this thread made me think about how hardware graphics took over, Quake being the last great software based 3D engine. There was this spate of inovative graphics techniques, voxels, height maps, raycasting, etc, in the early to mid 90s, then came Open GL and hardware acceleration, where you're coding 'draw cube' rather than 'project this onto the screen using this method'. As a consequence, pretty much every 3D game of the last 20 years uses essentially the same underlying techniques to draw 3D graphics. Even something like Mine Craft is using surface-based projection to represent voxel graphics. Then you've got off-the-shelf game engines like Unreal and of course IdTech. Do these hard-coded graphics and bought game engines stifle innovation? In 1985 you have a game that implements a number of features that wouldn't be seen until GTA 3, nearly 20 years after - that was made possible because a talented coder was able to create an entirely new technique that lead the game design. Are we missing out on that innovation by trading lack of flexibility for ease of development? EvilGenius fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Oct 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 21:57
|
|
|
I picked this up recently and it's, well, an ok game; http://store.steampowered.com/app/308420/ It's called Ziggurat and is a shooty roguelikey game that claims to be inspired by Heretic and Hexen. It's pretty fun for $12 and I will probably get several hours out of it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
Marphitimus uploaded a pretty good example of this recently to youtube. Korean FPS Hades from 1995. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noeGH-WRbiY The sound is horrid, the sprites aren't stellar, but voxel based landscape!
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
One really weird example is the attempts at FPS on the low-end Amigas. Ofter they're not "drawing" anything as the planar setup of the Amiga is bad for changing individual pixels: they're synced to the retrace and are changing the background colour on the fly. You are huge, that means you have huge pixels The Mercenary series was full of jokes that went over my head as a kid, like "The IDI Holiday Centre here opened in 1190. It was built by Richmal Pickle. He's the one with the spaceline - Zodiac Six". And the true meaning of the essential supplies you had to drop off somewhere:  
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 22:20
|
|
|
EvilGenius posted:It's funny you should say that, cos this thread made me think about how hardware graphics took over, Quake being the last great software based 3D engine. There was this spate of inovative graphics techniques, voxels, height maps, raycasting, etc, in the early to mid 90s, then came Open GL and hardware acceleration, where you're coding 'draw cube' rather than 'project this onto the screen using this method'. As a consequence, pretty much every 3D game of the last 20 years uses essentially the same underlying techniques to draw 3D graphics. Even something like Mine Craft is using surface-based projection to represent voxel graphics. I went on a demoscene binge a while back just to see what it actually looked like back then (memory was getting fuzzy) and while it's not the kind of big-buget, paid-talent things that was seen in the games industry, it's still kind of amazing to see the development over the first half of the '90s. This, this, this, and this was state of the (homegrown) vector and 3D art over three years on their respective platforms. Compare that to an early “FPS” from the era such as Midwinter (1990) on the Amiga.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 22:47
|
|
|
Tippis posted:I went on a demoscene binge a while back just to see what it actually looked like back then (memory was getting fuzzy) and while it's not the kind of big-buget, paid-talent things that was seen in the games industry, it's still kind of amazing to see the development over the first half of the '90s. Careful though. You can't compare a demoscene video to a game directly. Demoscene videos are insanely efficient. Everything is hand-optimized for the scene, and the scenes themselves are specifically chosen as things that will look good while being easy to pull off. A ton of poo poo is faked, because it has to be. You can control the flow of things exactly, nothing changes from execution to execution, so you can measure and test and push everything to its absolute limits. Each part of the scene can be mostly completely unloaded after its done, and then you do some other explicit single task. Games meanwhile have to be fairly inefficient by design. Lots of times you're not even using up the full graphics budget. Lets say there's 20 enemies around, but the player could run into a room with 40 enemies. Those 20 enemies have to look shittier because of the times when you run into 40 enemies, even if that only happens rarely. You could try to have multiple versions and swap between them when large numbers of enemies show up, but then now you've gotta have both versions loaded into memory at the same time, introducing its own performance challenges. Everything's a tradeoff and there's no magic solution because ultimately the player has control in real time. You can be smart and design a game that has limitations that don't feel like limitations, but its hard. Comparing a demoscene and a game is apples and oranges, like comparing pre-rendered graphics to raster graphics.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 23:02
|
|
|
Sure, I was more comparing demos to demos (but admittedly across platforms) in terms of how they managed to figure out new tricks over just a few years, The Midwinter example was more to show how fancy games could be at roughly the same time (everyone knows what happened three years later). Even so, even if you can't compare across them, the dynamism in the development was quite similar in both fields. As for what happened once hardware entered the fray, I think it's also important to distinguish the pre-'99 era of TNTs and Voodoo cards, and the massive shock to the market that was the GeForce 256. That's when they went from just filtering and applying textures and lightmaps to performing real-time T&L and (soon thereafter) shaders. Tippis fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 23:06
|
|
|
Tippis posted:As for what happened once hardware entered the fray, I think it's also important to distinguish the pre-'99 era of TNTs and Voodoo cards, and the massive shock to the market that was the GeForce 256. That's when they went from just filtering and applying textures and lightmaps to performing real-time T&L and (soon thereafter) shaders. I'll never forget when Everquest told me I'd need a card with hardware T&L to run it, and a whopping 512mb ram for full updated models  You're right though, the graphics APIs we use are inherently restricting. But its not like there's much alternative other than abandoning powerful dedicated hardware and using general CPU rendering for everything, which would knock us back a couple generations.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 23:18
|
|
|
As long as we're talking about Amiga Demos, I would like to share this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt5zFeXata8 Apparently the engine that was used for this demo was used to create the Amiga FPS Fears.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 23:24
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I'll never forget when Everquest told me I'd need a card with hardware T&L to run it, and a whopping 512mb ram for full updated models Yeah, I remember it being a bit chaotic for the system builders for a while there. Even more fun when some games ran blazingly fast on either old or new hardware and crap on the other. I don't remember what year it was that the budget GeForce 2 MX beat out all the high-end Voodoo and Radeon cards in benchmarks (because the benchmarks used T&L) but the latter absolutely trounced the MX in most games (because those had been in production since before T&L was a thing).  Oooh, and I went on the internet and I found this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2014 23:24
|
|
|
Wasn't the Max Payne engine written by a couple of demoscene dudes?
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
QwertySanchez posted:Marphitimus uploaded a pretty good example of this recently to youtube. Good lord, that's nauseating! Completely bizzare looking.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 00:28
|
|
|
Linguica posted:Wasn't the Max Payne engine written by a couple of demoscene dudes? More or less. Some from Future Crew went on to create FutureMark and some went on to create Remedy (not sure how much overlap there was), and there's a reason why the Matrix lobby scene is recreated as part of 3DMark 2001 in something that looks suspiciously similar to Max Payne. They also created Scream Tracker and the basis of what later became Impulse Tracker, both of which formed the foundation for the music in UnrealEngine 1. Tippis fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Oct 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:You're right though, the graphics APIs we use are inherently restricting. But its not like there's much alternative other than abandoning powerful dedicated hardware and using general CPU rendering for everything, which would knock us back a couple generations. Actually, we're slowly edging our way around this with GPGPUs, basically using the GPU as a generic stream processor. Any method for drawing graphics is going to involve doing similar math on a bunch of data, after all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 01:45
|
|
|
QwertySanchez posted:Marphitimus uploaded a pretty good example of this recently to youtube.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 16:53
|
|
|
I like that all the weapon graphics are stolen from Doom, while the vehicle hud looks kinda like it's from Wing Commander. Voxels are cool though, and they're making a slow comeback, since the Cryengine uses them for it's terrain, and the Unreal engine terrain editor uses them for the pre-generation stage of making an outdoors type map.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:06
|
|
|
There was one Russian FPS which used voxels heavily, ZAR (or Zone of Artificial Resources) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQP9cm5Us8k. I used to play the 3-level demo quite a lot, and apparently the game had quite a following in it's motherland, with LAN tournaments scene etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
Elliotw2 posted:I like that all the weapon graphics are stolen from Doom, while the vehicle hud looks kinda like it's from Wing Commander. Vehicle hud looks more like Descent to me than Wing Commander, although its not quite as obviously traced as the doom sprites  Voxes are hella cool. Its kidna weird that everybody played around with them back in the like duke nukem and magic carpet days, and then I guess they all decided it was a gimmick not worth messing with or something, or it was too expensive and didn't look very good. But ideally everything in games would be voxels, it would make it a lot more real and give us freedom to do things we normally have to accept as restrictions in games. You could just blow through any wall or floor, like Red Faction. That would make most shooters better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
In a different direction, Novalogic uses voxels heavily in their early simulators, including the first three Delta Force games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WNUdxJB8Qc
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Elliotw2 posted:In a different direction, Novalogic uses voxels heavily in their early simulators, including the first three Delta Force games. OOh. Now I have to ehm… “get my hands on” Comanche somehow. I hope it turns out to be awful in hindsight so I don't get stuck
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 12:09 |
|
|
Voxels aren't out of commission yet, there's a company working on a UE4 implementation (with an already-made Unity version). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7z8a-kUR8c
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2014 17:38
|
|
