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Racists are amazing.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:15
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Kopijeger posted:Not that it would apply in this case - these Roma are not citizens and do not have voting rights in Norway. They come to the country solely in order to sit on their butts and collect money for it. It only targets Roma in the sense that they are the only foreigners who see fit to spend money to travel to foreign countries in order to collect money while giving nothing of value in return. In comparison, seasonal workers from places like Poland and Lithuania have come for years in order to earn money by picking berries and fruit. As far as I know, there are no legal barriers to keep citizens from any EU country from doing the same, yet the Roma do not seem to attempt to get such work. Hmm this sounds familiar. I wonder who else people have said this of.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:16
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Can't say I can speak on the cultural and ethnic issues affecting Roma in Europe. The squatting / private property stuff wouldn't fly in the States. There's issues of squatting and homelessness, but in terms of this kind of trespassing -- no way. But it seems that in the former Soviet bloc countries that there is a lot of formerly state-owned land that's now private, but with unclear regulations, enforcement or even ownership. I can see how that would complicate things. I think another thing is that a lot of Americans can't tell Romani apart from other people. They just appear as vaguely foreign folks with itinerant lifestyles. A lot of Americans think actual Roma are like mythical creatures from medieval times, like goblins or elves or something. And subtract the foreign part, and the itinerant squalor describes some people I grew up around. Except they had names like Dale and Cody and lived in a trailer park.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:42
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I bought weed from the Roma once.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:50
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Omi-Polari posted:Can't say I can speak on the cultural and ethnic issues affecting Roma in Europe. The squatting / private property stuff wouldn't fly in the States. Squatting on unused land/abandoned buildings really is a big thing in the US. It tends to be more actually squatting in buildings or just using tents/RVs than putting up shacks, and it is usually pursued as a civil and not a criminal matter. One of the huge differences is that there is far more land in the US, and far more public/who gives a poo poo land. Roma are also more likely to be able to find hella cheap apartments/RV parks whatever in the US and face less housing discrimination than in Europe, so it's not as big a deal here. quote:I think another thing is that a lot of Americans can't tell Romani apart from other people. They just appear as vaguely foreign folks with itinerant lifestyles. A lot of Americans think actual Roma are like mythical creatures from medieval times, like goblins or elves or something. And subtract the foreign part, and the itinerant squalor describes some people I grew up around. Except they had names like Dale and Cody and lived in a trailer park. The Roma also are highly clustered in Washington in the US, and actually have built up some communities there. Weirdly, when you don't have laws targeting them/a long history of racism against them/police brutality against them, they start integrating into the society. It's a mystery!
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Oct 29, 2014 20:50
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Pycckuu posted:People are lovely towards the gypsies because gypsies steal. If you want to change the way you are treated by others, stop stealing their poo poo. hahahaha thank you for lightening the mood in here with your blatant racism, we needed a common idiot to laugh at.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:52
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Obdicut posted:Eradicate the racism against Roma, address their exclusion from social services, and other ways that the Roma are shat on. This is going to, obviously, be more or less for various countries, but there isn't any country in Europe with any significant Roma presence that isn't lovely towards Roma in some way. And again: Their culture says "Keep among your own kind because if you try to associate with non-Roma they will be racist and make all kinds of assumptions about you", and the fact that that is re-affirmed constantly by the racism Roma experience is a very large part of what keeps them isolated. Technically, Roma culture says "keep among your own kind because non-Roma are dirty and you'll be contaminated by their unclean practices." For instance, a menstruating woman can contaminate men simply by walking on the floor above them, so Roma have difficulty living in apartment buildings. Women are considered generally unclean and inferior and are the property of their families so the whole "no child brides" thing doesn't go over well either. Non-Roma women are already unclean because they don't engage in Roma cultural practices, which means sexually assaulting them isn't really a crime. If a Roma woman engages in pre-marital sex she's sullied her family forever and will probably be expelled from the community. 90% of Roma girls in Serbia and Montenegro are married by age 16 and 80% of those marriages are arranged. An activist who worked with Serbian Roma Women said that in her estimate 95% of Roma women experience domestic violence at home, and women who get divorces are considered unclean and regarded as prostitutes. What would you say to a 14 year Roma girl who was beaten and raped by her husband? Don't complain about being a child bride because that's what the neonazis want you to do? Keep quiet or you'll reaffirm anti-roma racism? If a racist says that raping and beating a 14 year old is wrong, are you automatically going to take the opposite position? This is why it's annoying to be an American in europe--the stereotype is that we have strong opinions about issues we don't have any facts on and act like the majority opinion in America is all the evidence that's needed. If all the stats are wrong and all the first hand accounts of Roma cultural practices are false, where's your proof? If you post again without any proof other than guilt by association (look it up) you will have officially crossed the line into trolling. But you actually have no idea what you're talking about and all of your arguments are based on abstraction. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 20:52
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Pycckuu posted:People are lovely towards gypsies because gypsies steal. If you want to change the way you are treated by others, stop stealing their poo poo. Someone should let Putin know. Hate for Russia to develop a reputation too.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:53
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Smerdyakov posted:
What purpose is there in asking these ridiculous stupid strawmen? Where have I ever said that the child bride thing, or the misogyny in Roma culture, is okay? quote:This is why it's annoying to be an American in europe--the stereotype is that we have strong opinions about issues we don't have any facts on and act like the majority opinion in America is all the evidence that's needed. But you actually have no idea what you're talking about and all of your arguments are based on abstraction or guilt by association. If all the stats are wrong and all the first hand accounts of their cultural practices are false, where's your proof? If you post again without any proof other than guilt by association (look it up) you will have officially crossed the line into trolling. What the gently caress are you talking about? So far, I've been the only one putting up actual studies on the subject by groups like Amnesty International and the UN.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:55
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Omi-Polari posted:I think another thing is that a lot of Americans can't tell Romani apart from other people. They just appear as vaguely foreign folks with itinerant lifestyles. A lot of Americans think actual Roma are like mythical creatures from medieval times, like goblins or elves or something. I straight up believed that til I was like 12. Living in America, literally the only place they showed up was in like horror and fantasy stories, and I would have told you they're either something like a tribe of mystical witches or something akin to elves. Then I started talking to Europeans online and they'd pop off stuff about how gypsys totally rob their house every week and they all carry disease and it was like hearing some Confederate politician ranting about their slaves crossed with people who blame demons for things.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:57
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Charlotte Hornets posted:I bought weed from the Roma once. I was beaten up by a gang of Roma-children in my childhood and I still don't get all that crapping on Roma by my fellow Europeans. It must be cognitive dissonance in action or something. 
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Oct 29, 2014 20:58
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Luigi Thirty posted:Hmm this sounds familiar. I wonder who else people have said this of. I am genuinely curious: which others find it acceptable to spend money on travelling to distant countries in order to beg from the locals instead of working?
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Oct 29, 2014 21:02
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Obdicut posted:What purpose is there in asking these ridiculous stupid strawmen? Where have I ever said that the child bride thing, or the misogyny in Roma culture, is okay? So it would be ok to say that Roma engage in the systematic rape of children at a higher rate than other ethnic groups and that it's wrong? Aren't you making the same argument as virulent racists?
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Oct 29, 2014 21:02
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Kopijeger posted:I am genuinely curious: which others find it acceptable to spend money on travelling to distant countries in order to beg from the locals instead of working? Peace Corps volunteers.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:03
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When a begging old woman with a hump and a limp turns out to be a tall grown man with no injury, I find it hard to feel sympathy towards them. Another thing I've seen them do is handing out flowers to people as if they were free, then demanding money and shouting at them. And then there's also fake charities. Of course when it comes to crime... One peculiar thing that most notably Lithuanian criminals (not gypsies) have done in Estonia is targeting Russian-speaking old people, then pretending to be police officers and calling to tell them that their children or grandchildren have gotten into a terrible accident and a certain sum would "take care of things". And they pay. Through suggestion and coercion they don't even need to know any of their personal details to do that. Estonian police would never do such a thing. Maybe things are different in Russia.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:05
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Kopijeger posted:I am genuinely curious: which others find it acceptable to spend money on travelling to distant countries in order to beg from the locals instead of working? Those who don't find a job because, surprise, Europe is having to deal with massive unemployment?
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Oct 29, 2014 21:07
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Kopijeger posted:I am genuinely curious: which others find it acceptable to spend money on travelling to distant countries in order to beg from the locals instead of working? Techlebrities. Alternatively, Friedmanites. E: Oh, and the UN. Definitely the UN.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:09
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Nintendo Kid posted:I straight up believed that til I was like 12. Living in America, literally the only place they showed up was in like horror and fantasy stories, and I would have told you they're either something like a tribe of mystical witches or something akin to elves. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 21:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:Techlebrities. This is true. the Peace Corps people are just whiny and poor, but the UN actively employees thieves. I was in Pristina at their Hard Rock Cafe and a UN dignitary walked out on the bill then escaped into his chauffeured SUV. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 21:16
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You know, speaking of bizarre non-integrating cultures, I come to realize I can't think of a single cultural slur for the Amish. Now there's a group of people who really hate integrating into modern society and get away with it.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:19
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Cuntpunch posted:You know, speaking of bizarre non-integrating cultures, I come to realize I can't think of a single cultural slur for the Amish. They integrate quite well actually. They do a ton of business with other people in the areas they're located, nearly all of them use cell phones these days (including internet through cell phones) and of course the ones who engage in off-farm business have been using computers and phones for quite some time. It's not uncommon to see them take road trips even, through contracting companies that actually handle the driving and such. They'll be out for business all over the eastern US at least.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:24
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Nice to see Russians and Europeans united by their racism.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:25
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Hey, Americans have a long tradition of anti-social behavior, anything-to-make-a-buck lifestyles and underage cousin-marryin.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:27
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXs5cotq8RU
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Oct 29, 2014 21:30
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Kopijeger posted:I am genuinely curious: which others find it acceptable to spend money on travelling to distant countries in order to beg from the locals instead of working? There aren't any. It's a racist lie. Luigi Thirty is rightfully accusing you in parroting the same kind of dishonest rhetoric that American right-wingers use to smear "illegals" who come to the US. I am genuinely curious as to whether you are attempting to hold a discussion in good faith, or are merely engaged in trolling. Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 21:44
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Roma: They're taking over the club. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiNF6MMK98U Trigger warning for Europeans: Roma dudes macking on random hotties. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 21:45
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Another important factor is that after the Iron Curtain fell, the Holocaust/genocide was taught as a fascist/Nazi disease rather than educating about the complicity of an entire continent. But I'm sure I'll get some anecdote about the Porajmos being well-known among the European intellectuals in this thread. Also, another parallel to African-Americans is that the Roma were also enslaved. I think Romania was the last to abolish slavery at the end of the 19th century.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:53
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Forgall posted:Nice to see Russians and Europeans united by their racism. Racism is undoubtedly bad, and I'm glad that American goons who only see minorities on TV and think Roma are mythical creatures similar to the elves are here to set the record straight and explain the real cause for these ethnic tensions in a region thousands of miles away.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:54
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Cool, let's discuss music. Gypsy music or not. Prāta Vētra are quite a terrific band. The name of their band in English is Brainstorm. They're Latvians who were in Eurovision at least once about 14 years ago. And I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jISWtgdkF8Y&t=491s I think this is great. This is incredible. I don't understand a word, but I don't need to. Also this one song from when the Baltic chain happened in 1989. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KoKq20RUl0 Too bad about the terrible video quality, seems to get worse every year. First segment in Lithuanian, then Latvian and Estonian follow. 3:46 a guy wearing a Miami Vice shirt. He knew what was good.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:55
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Pycckuu posted:Racism is undoubtedly bad, and I'm glad that American goons who only see minorities on TV and think Roma are mythical creatures similar to the elves are here to set the record straight and explain the real cause for these ethnic tensions in a region thousands of miles away. It's a good thing none of us speak or read in other languages, have access to a plethora of research or experience in a field that trumps your anecdotes, otherwise we just still might be those backwards peasants who dared revolt against a tyrant.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:56
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Another important factor is that after the Iron Curtain fell, the Holocaust/genocide was taught as a fascist/Nazi disease rather than educating about the complicity of an entire continent. Oh, come now, Romania apologized for its role in the Porajmos in 2007! Why are all these Roma still all upset about that, it's silly. They're even actually teaching about it in school now, supposedly. It took West Germany until 1984 to recognize it. To my knowledge, Poland never has, nor most Eastern European countries.
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Oct 29, 2014 22:04
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Too bad those filthy Roma don't have any cultural and scientific institutions. Eh, as if Romani children would ever want to go to school. Or earn scholarships. I bet they'd all be lovely students anyway. It's not like there are educated Roma working on socio-economic platforms to promote the rights and societal participation of the Romani population. Pycckuu posted:Racism is undoubtedly bad, and I'm glad that American goons who only see minorities on TV and think Roma are mythical creatures similar to the elves are here to set the record straight and explain the real cause for these ethnic tensions in a region thousands of miles away. I can confirm that I am a true, loyal American, and I have never ever seen a Romani in real life. I hereby ask you to stop spreading filthy communist propaganda about them not being imaginary creatures. jonnypeh posted:Cool, let's discuss music. Gypsy music or not. Sure, here's some Serbian hip hop (Contains  footage)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc41KAFfwwQ
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Oct 29, 2014 22:06
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Cuntpunch posted:You know, speaking of bizarre non-integrating cultures, I come to realize I can't think of a single cultural slur for the Amish. Their cultural background is based around self-sufficiency and not relying on outside communities for their lifestyle. They'd use cars regularly if they were capable of manufacturing them. They use electricity as long as they don't need to connect to outside power lines (solar panels are quite valuable to them), but they allow motorized wheelchairs for the disabled and electric-powered medical equipment because they don't believe in causing undue suffering through their restrictions. They often have private phone shacks outside of the home (so that communications with the outside world don't impede on the privacy and sanctity of the home) and many New Order Amish are purchasing cell phones or having phones installed for their businesses. They don't drive cars, but they do hire drivers. Generally there's no way to really guess exactly how an Amish person treats modern society, as today's generations are growing up in a more interconnected world that has difficulty truly separating themselves from the "English". They also have a limited ability to avoid laws and regulations, especially things like child labor laws. And while the Amish aren't unpopular enough to inspire lynchings or anything, that's mostly because they're a predominately white group whose beliefs are based around pacifism and social togetherness and they lack the "not fully human" idea applied to blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Roma, etc. or the "religion of evil and violence" applied to Muslims. They still suffer abuse, just not to the level of specific anti-Amish legislation or fear of them. Literally nobody is scared of the Amish. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 22:09
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:There aren't any. It's a racist lie. Luigi Thirty is rightfully accusing you in parroting the same kind of dishonest rhetoric that American right-wingers use to smear "illegals" who come to the US. I know little about American RW rhetoric. The fact remains: in many European countries you find Roma who have travelled from Romania or other eastern countries in order to sit around and beg instead of working. It seems absurd that they claim to be needy when they can afford to travel great distances. Also, it seems like Roma are the only ones who do this, while Poles (for example) generally come to earn money by working. They are disliked in countries where they do not reside because they seem to expect money for simply existing. Are you suggesting that one should let them keep doing this indefinitely? Furthermore, there is evidence that the activities are organised by gangs, like shown in this documentary from the BBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGC8pMQU8
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Oct 29, 2014 22:11
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So how much money do these Roma spend on their travels?
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Oct 29, 2014 22:13
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my dad posted:Sure, here's some Serbian hip hop Rap is not really my thing. But Serbo-Croatian (Serbian or Croatian - doesn't matter to me) language sounds nice. I went on the internet and found this Yugoslavian entry to 1990 Eurovision. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psow_WkrytA I love it. Apparently she lives in USA now and makes music in both English and her own language. e: Where does this Crvena Zvezda and Partizan rivalry come from anyway? That's nuts. jonnypeh fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 22:15
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jonnypeh posted:Cool, let's discuss music. Gypsy music or not. Also, in second video first segment is Latvian and second is Lithuanian.
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Oct 29, 2014 22:45
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jonnypeh posted:e: Where does this Crvena Zvezda and Partizan rivalry come from anyway? That's nuts. Haven't a clue. It's been around since long before I was. Let's take a musical trip to Bosnia, hosted by Dubioza Kolektiv https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLPyNDlERzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZOf47Iv2Zo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtgA0jvhp2A
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Oct 29, 2014 23:01
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The roma issue is extremely complex, but I'll try writing a bit of my take on it (at least from my romanian perspective) I'll start with an anecdote: a few years ago I saw a tv piece about a roma kid who won a medal at one of those international math or physics contests, and afterwards he received a money prize from the state for something like "roma education excellence"; he was recounting that when he told his classmates, none of them could believe he was a roma: "how could you be a gypsy? you're good at school, you don't smell bad, you speak correct romanian; it's impossible, you're not a gypsy" This is one of the defining things about romanian (and I would guess eastern-european) racism against the roma, and one that makes it different from american racism: it's way more cultural than racial. Romanians have certain expectations about what a roma is, expectations that correlate with some clearly defined stereotypes. If you don't fit any of those stereotypes but you clearly look like a roma (very dark skin tone), you get far less discrimination; and if you don't look "like a gypsy" (which is actually the majority of roma here), people will not even consider you a roma, and you get what happened to that kid in that anecdote. To better explain, in Romania (like in most of the Balkans) we've had over the centuries a lot of various populations coming, going, or staying and integrating, from roman settlers (who were mainly from roman Syria, north Africa and Hispania) to various turkic, germanic, iranian or slavic peoples, so today's ethnic romanians can look anything from pale to dark skinned or whatever (it's not like Scandinavia where they all look like corpses). So a roma that integrates into romanian culture and acts, talks, etc like a regular romanian (and not like how a roma is supposed to) is seen by the majority as not even "one of the good ones", but like a regular romanian (it's not like America, where in most cases you can tell who is black or not). And since being a roma means automatically being discriminated against, a lot of those that integrate into the majority culture shun their roma identity and culture, declare themselves romanians, intermarry, etc. It's why at the last romanian census a couple years ago only 2.5% declared themselves roma, when they're more like at least 5-6%. You can say "hey, at least like that they evade discrimination", but if this kind of "integration" goes on, in the future there would be no more roma left, and that's I guess cultural genocide. But if you try to prevent that and, say, try to have a big, national wide campaign to integrate them while having them retain their identity, how do you do it? Do you tell them "keep the black suits, the colourful dresses and gold necklaces but ditch the child marriage, arranged marriages, etc"? Who gets to decide what parts of their culture is "good" or "bad", a committee? And where does that leaves us? Well, if those that don't conform to stereotypes are not seen as roma, then what it means is that those who you do consider roma are those that do reinforce the stereotypes, and G*d knows if you live here you can get them stereotypes reinforced for you almost on a daily basis. I could go on for pages on how many hosed up things I've seen, like how when I was a kid I thought that "gypsies can't bend their legs" cause most of those living in the small roma ghetto (about a dozen houses) in my neighborhood had physical deformities like those, but turns out they had been horrifically abused when they were little; or the little roma children sent by their parents to beg on the streets, a lot of times completely naked; that girl that couldn't be older than 13 with bruises on her face and arms who begs between the T-mobile and Vodafone shops in my neighborhood, while holding her crying baby and looking like a statue of despair; this summer, the 2 roma parents I've seen sitting under the shade of a tree next to the intersection between 2 boulevards, while their little children were running among cars begging from drivers, and running back to pops to give him the money; those prostitutes that look 14 or less who hang out on the ring road outside the city, while the (also roma) pimps hang out in BMWs nearby supervising them; you get a daily barrage of images like those, and not to mention the stealing, murders etc. There are plenty of roma who are culturally roma, and who are honest people, who work, never do crime, and who treat their children great but it's hard for them to be visible and change general perceptions when there are so many way more visible examples of the contrary, and especially when so many integrated roma, like I've explained above, ditch their former identity or are considered "not a gypsy". To give an example about these perceptions, a few months ago a young and extremely poor roma girl from some village found a wallet with 1000 RON (around 200 euros) in it, and took it to the police station to be returned to the owner; this made frontpage news on all newspapers (BREAKING: GYPSY RETURNS FOUND MONEY!), she was interviewed by most tv-stations, the mayor of her village offered to build her a house, various people gave her money, others offered her jobs, etc; it speaks volumes about how racist the society perception is when one simple act of honesty like that one sparks such a reaction. Speaking of societal racism, what makes it harder to combat it here is that most people are also poor or barely getting by; it's hard to explain to a random blue collar worker who earns like 200-300 euros a month that historical circumstances, cultural differences and widespread racism are why many roma steal, beg and don't work, they'll just answer "I work like a slave to feed my kids, there's days when I don't eat anything, and I've never stolen a thing in my life; gently caress those gypsies and their excuses". Few will have the patience to understand that such antisocial behavior is the result of a complex mix of racism, neglect and stuff like the vicious circle where children are treated like crap and get to see the father beating the mother every day, and makes many do the same when they grow up and have wifes/children of their own, as it's all they know and society has never stepped in to help them. I guess I can talk about my own experience: I grew up in some extreme poverty as the 90s were really hosed up here and me and my sister got raised by my (single) mother on less than 80 dollars a month; because we didn't afford food very often I was extremely skinny and had a big belly like those african children you see on tv (my cruel classmates nicknamed me "the somali" lol). During those times I had my fair share of getting beaten up and robbed of the little I had by older roma kids, and I still remember the seething hate those experiences brought in me; the worst one was when they also stole my new sneakers, now that doesn't sound like a big deal for your average westerner but during those times I would wear the same chinese knock-off sneakers for years until they disintegrated cause my mom couldn't afford me to buy new ones; and when I had that pair stolen, I remember my mom cried cause she had saved for months to get me those shoes as a present, I cried cause I had to go back to my old ones that had my toes sticking out, and it was like a huge tragedy lol. Looking back today, stuff like that seems stupid but it did take me a lot of growing up and maturing to lose the hate and the inherent atmosphere of racism against gypsies that the average romanian kid grows up in; I guess many never grow out of that racism, but I've noticed lately a lot more people do turn against racism, as many turn against homophobia; it's kind of a slow process, but seeing the way more tolerant attitudes from many young people I do think things are changing, even if slowly. As for solutions for the roma, I don't know what to say. In Romania we've had a form of affirmative action for them since the 90s, with free university spots reserved for roma students, tax breaks for companies that hire roma (with roma only job fairs), various government and NGO ran programs, and there's been some results but it's far from enough. When we entered the EU I thought our roma will just migrate west, and since western countries are way richer, way more civilized and so much wiser, they'll be able to achieve what we couldn't and integrate them. Guess that didn't work out so well heh. Now romanians are angry because romanian roma have been doing some stealing, raping etc across europe, and europeans think roma and romanian are the same thing so they hate us; and so that turned into yet another excuse for racism here. Well, sorry for my kinda incoherent post as it's late here and I'm dead tired from work, but I wanted to better explain some issues 
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Oct 29, 2014 23:16
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my dad posted:Haven't a clue. It's been around since long before I was. Thanks, I can listen to those.
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Oct 29, 2014 23:29
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