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I don't think it's supposed to be righteous vengeance or justice out of nowhere. I mean, Tommy is a young kid and is presumably put away after the killing, which is a tragedy. The whole thing is kind of a tragedy because Gillian and Jimmy could have survived if they hadn't made very ill-fated moves.
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Oct 29, 2014 16:33
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I didn't super care for the ending either. I thought the bit where the commmodore said all things come through me and not from hard work or value was neatly reminiscent of what Eddie said about Nucky at the start of season 4 when he was at the height of his power about him being everywhere and part of everything. I just didn't give a poo poo about Nucky as a character. He's always been a tedious cold fish and everyone around him was interesting. His reactions to his brother and Gillian were oh so very Nucky so I can't really fault the writers for that. Him getting murdered by Jimmy's son was like a joke in the thread at some point and all I could think when it happened was, really? It would have been better if it was Eddie Cantor or literally anyone I'd thought of as a character in 3 seasons. The flashback scenes worked better than I figured they would have because the actors were really good. The whole thing ended on a yeah ok whatever to me. If Nucky had an ending as cool or as interesting as Van Alden or Chalky that would have been amazing.
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Oct 29, 2014 16:59
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Astroman posted:I guess one reason that Nucky's death could be considered unsatisfying is because a lot of people like redemption arcs. What the show was basically saying was that there was no way Nucky could have redeemed himself. From Episode 1 he was a dead man walking, for something he did when he was 22. Pedro De Heredia posted:I don't think it's supposed to be righteous vengeance or justice out of nowhere. I mean, Tommy is a young kid and is presumably put away after the killing, which is a tragedy. The whole thing is kind of a tragedy because Gillian and Jimmy could have survived if they hadn't made very ill-fated moves. I don't disagree with the Darmody family tragedy part, though I think we should have seen more of Tommy as an adult so we'd actually feel bad that he threw his life away for pointless revenge. I think Sepinwall talking about how Nucky destroyed three generations of that family kind of colored my perspective, since I thought he was being dense by denying them any agency in their own downfall. If everything bad that ever happened to any of them is Nucky's fault, then everything Nucky did is the Commodore's fault, or his abusive father's fault. It just lets everyone, including the audience, off too easy to suddenly decide that Nucky alone is irredeemably evil because of that one act (monstrous though it was).
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Oct 29, 2014 17:16
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The only life Nucky ruined was Gillian's. Jimmy ruined his own life by trying to go around Nucky and pair up with the Commodore. Tommy ruined his own life by killing some guy he barely knows.
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Oct 29, 2014 17:43
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Cojawfee posted:The only life Nucky ruined was Gillian's. Jimmy ruined his own life by trying to go around Nucky and pair up with the Commodore. Tommy ruined his own life by killing some guy he barely knows. Well to be fair the idea is that Nucky's original sin reverberates through the generations. If Nucky doesn't hand over Gillian for his own gain then she isn't repeatedly raped by the commodore, she doesn't have a child that she fucks up for good (And don't forget one that she covets) and no one spends their days cursing out Nucky and talking about what a terrible man he was. It isn't so much that Nucky is completely responsible for them, but if he never made his original choice then those things don't happen.
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Oct 29, 2014 19:48
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Yes, Nucky put all those events into motion. He also "fixed" everything when he gave Jimmy a great opportunity to get a good start in life. He paid for his college and Jimmy could have been very successful. Instead Jimmy decided to be a gangster like Nucky. That decision is what ruined Tommy's life.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:13
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ChesterJT posted:Where did anyone on the show get their guns? It's not sloppy, it's boring detail that would take up precious screen time on a very tight season. It would probably taken a whole five seconds to show the hotel staff giving him back his stuff at nucky's prompting or him grabbing something from a hiding spot. As it is I find it really weird and jarring that a drunken teenager who just tried to rob a lady at a fancy hotel is allowed to walk out with a gun, which of course he then uses to kill somebody, and nobody makes a comment. Did nobody rub him down? He has his coat off, what was that big metal thing in it? A toaster? Its a stupid niggling thing that gets to me, but whatever I don't think Boardwalk has the tightest plotting in the world.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:21
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Cojawfee posted:He also "fixed" everything when he gave Jimmy a great opportunity to get a good start in life. [montage of Nucky opening billfold, handing out money]
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Oct 29, 2014 20:34
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Jimmy dropped out of Princeton after his mom bought him into her sexual trauma and dysfunction inspired by the Commodore and facilitated by Nucky. As hard as he tried, Nucky couldn't buy forgiveness for that.
Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 20:48
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Cojawfee posted:Yes, Nucky put all those events into motion. He also "fixed" everything when he gave Jimmy a great opportunity to get a good start in life. He paid for his college and Jimmy could have been very successful. Instead Jimmy decided to be a gangster like Nucky. That decision is what ruined Tommy's life. Except not, because the whole point is that Nucky thinks that money can just solve everything. The show has repeatedly shown that money, and Nucky's pursuit of it, has brought him nothing but misery. Money works for the other characters, but the original sin has tainted him, and it will continue to do so until the end.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:53
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We'll never know, of course, but with Nucky's death does Margaret (still legally his wife) gain ownership of all his assets? More to the point, what about the cash he made from shorting stock in Kennedy's company? I assume that was done under an assumed name/company not associated with himself, but Margaret had access/control of it so I'd assume that IF she wanted to, she could continue to use money from it in the same way that her old boss did with Rothstein's assets after he died? Then again, she made 29k which was a lot of money back then, and she seems to have gotten a pretty good position in her company plus she never had the same obsession with cash that Nucky did. I'm just glad she made it through the series relatively okay (aside from all the emotional and psychological trauma she suffered!).
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Oct 29, 2014 21:57
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If she controls the account, I don't think anyone could stop her. Nucky's first wife is dead and no one else besides her has any claim to anything he controlled. It's not like Lucky Luciano could walk up and say "Excuse me, your honor, but in a backroad dealing in which I killed two people, I gained control of all of Enoch Thompson's assets."
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Oct 29, 2014 22:03
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Cojawfee posted:If she controls the account, I don't think anyone could stop her. Nucky's first wife is dead and no one else besides her has any claim to anything he controlled. It's not like Lucky Luciano could walk up and say "Excuse me, your honor, but in a backroad dealing in which I killed two people, I gained control of all of Enoch Thompson's assets." That's only if Nucky doesn't have a living will. For all we know, he left everything to Eli or Jimmy or Eddie or Margaret's kids. Which makes one wonder if Luciano is going to come after anyone for all the official deeds needed to run Atlantic City. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 22:37
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Sinteres posted:I don't disagree with the Darmody family tragedy part, though I think we should have seen more of Tommy as an adult so we'd actually feel bad that he threw his life away for pointless revenge. I think Sepinwall talking about how Nucky destroyed three generations of that family kind of colored my perspective, since I thought he was being dense by denying them any agency in their own downfall. If everything bad that ever happened to any of them is Nucky's fault, then everything Nucky did is the Commodore's fault, or his abusive father's fault. It just lets everyone, including the audience, off too easy to suddenly decide that Nucky alone is irredeemably evil because of that one act (monstrous though it was). Agreed, and I also think it's a great point we should have seen more of Tommy. They clearly thought it was going to be such an "Ah-HA!" reveal that it would be ruined by us knowing who he was. If we'd known right away who he was, and watched him struggle with knowing Nucky and trying to figure out if he liked him or hated him, I think it would have been stronger. Civilized Fishbot posted:Jimmy dropped out of Princeton after his mom bought him into her sexual trauma and dysfunction inspired by the Commodore and facilitated by Nucky. As hard as he tried, Nucky couldn't buy forgiveness for that. I think he could have gone a long way by getting Gillian out. And in fact it would have been for a more tragic ending if Nucky had gotten Gillian freed, gone back to AC to get his stuff before going off in the sunset with Margaret and then Tommy guns (lol) him down, not knowing that Nucky just actually helped his grandmother. The only "good" thing Nucky did in the last few episodes was to hand over his criminal empire to Luciano to free his nephew, but did he really still want it anyway? He was already making his big play to cash in with Mayflower and probably get out of crime. Civilized Fishbot posted:That's only if Nucky doesn't have a living will. For all we know, he left everything to Eli or Jimmy or Eddie or Margaret's kids. Which makes one wonder if Luciano is going to come after anyone for all the official deeds needed to run Atlantic City. It was made pretty clear with AR's wife that Nucky and Margaret are still legally married. If the money is in his name, she gets it. If it's under an alias, she can get it. As far as AC goes, besides his club and a few other properties, most of what's needed to run AC was Nucky's personality. Luciano and Pinky can get control of the club, the men, intimidating other criminals like numbers rackets, prostitutes, bootleggers, etc. But they won't have control over the political power and cult of personality Nucky had. In real life, the state senator for the area Hap Farley was the one who took over the local political machine, but he stayed out of the gambling, prostitution, etc. But he was the new boss. Somebody would fill that vacuum, but it probably won't be Luciano.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:15
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various people have suggested that Nucky should've got Gillian out. but how plausible is that? the story of this season was that his power & influence was waning. whose strings could he pull to get Gillian signed out?
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Oct 30, 2014 00:23
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It's the 30s and he's a man. He just has to go up to the main doctor guy and be all *wink wink* *nod nod* and the guy is all "Oh, I see. I'll sign her release papers."
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Oct 30, 2014 00:25
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really? she's not just been voluntarily committed or on medical advice. she's a murderer been sent their by a criminal court.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:32
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Back then psychiatric hospitals (especially for women) weren't exactly on the up and up. While the situation I mentioned was just a joke, it is likely that Gillian would be in there until she died. Even if she somehow became sane, they wouldn't let her out. They were mostly places to just throw women society didn't want to deal with. Even if women weren't crazy going in, they'd become crazy because of how they were treated. There might have been some way for Nucky to throw enough money (that old schtick) at the guy running the place to let her out. No one would have cared. It's not like anyone would ever check with the hospital to see if she was still held there.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:36
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Jimmy dropped out of Princeton after his mom bought him into her sexual trauma and dysfunction inspired by the Commodore and facilitated by Nucky. As hard as he tried, Nucky couldn't buy forgiveness for that. This line of reasoning doesn't give Jimmy nearly enough credit for loving up his life. Even if you think that dropping out of Princeton to fight in WWI was actually Nucky's fault for setting everything in motion, Jimmy comes back from the war. Nucky doesn't give Jimmy everything he wants right away, but he does put him in a guaranteed entry-level job in the political machine, and if I remember correctly when Jimmy complains about having to work for a living Nucky even goes so far as to explain that it's a temporary thing while he learns the ropes. Jimmy of course decides instead to take a risk and winds up screwing himself and Nucky, but he gets a second chance when the war he started gets so hot that Nucky has to call him back from Chicago. Then he's in a position as Nucky's #2 and probably his eventual successor, but he decides he doesn't like that idea as much as joining with his despicable piece of poo poo father to oust Nucky. Finally in the end his bad decisions stack up, he loses everything, and with deliberation he squares his accounts with Nucky and presents himself to be executed. "To the Lost" is his suicide. Like, just to pull out a specific example, Nucky didn't force Jimmy to cheat Manny Horvitz, which was a really bad decision that had huge repercussions for him. Nucky is much more responsible for Gillian's life than for Jimmy's, because she's never allowed to exercise that kind of agency.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:13
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EvanSchenck posted:Nucky is much more responsible for Gillian's life than for Jimmy's, because she's never allowed to exercise that kind of agency. Bu bu bu his original sin
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Oct 30, 2014 01:19
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Cojawfee posted:Back then psychiatric hospitals (especially for women) weren't exactly on the up and up. While the situation I mentioned was just a joke, it is likely that Gillian would be in there until she died. Even if she somehow became sane, they wouldn't let her out. They were mostly places to just throw women society didn't want to deal with. Even if women weren't crazy going in, they'd become crazy because of how they were treated. There might have been some way for Nucky to throw enough money (that old schtick) at the guy running the place to let her out. No one would have cared. It's not like anyone would ever check with the hospital to see if she was still held there. Also if they won't take his word or his money to release Gillian, it's a psychiatric hospital, security there is designed to keep unarmed mentally ill women in, not armed gunmen out. Yeah that means the life of a fugitive, but that looks pretty good compared to that mental hospital. I get that the point of the scene was more that "Nucky is too little too late, he's a monster that doesn't get redemption" but seriously, Nucky had options to help if he really really wanted to (although it's also fair to point out armed breakout would mean he needs to set her up with someone willing to take care of her as she lives in hiding).
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Oct 30, 2014 01:31
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The more I think about it, the more I feel the flashbacks should have been spread out over all the seasons. Hell, maybe expand them to cover other main characters too. But I realize this would have changed the show significantly. It's just that I found them extremely effective and powerful (Nucky crying at the dinner table, Nucky walking through the Commodore's mansion), at least until the last episode.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:39
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Cerv posted:various people have suggested that Nucky should've got Gillian out. but how plausible is that? Well the doctor was saying if pretty much anyone who knew her before would vouch for her sanity, she could go. Nucky still had enormous influence in NJ state politics, and nobody at that level would yet know of the mechanations of his dealings with Luciano or his loss. He also had the equivalent of $36 million in today's money. $10k to build a new wing would go a long way. Hell, he just walked in off the street and immediately got her a private room without even really wanting to help. Imagine what he could have gotten if he cared to try.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:47
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Digesting it for a few days, I think the major problem with the series ending is that Nucky should have never been the main character. Nearly every single character or organization in the show is more interesting than Nucky and his AC operation. Most likely because it feels like they never could decide exactly what they wanted to do with Nucky, so at the very end they rushed in a nihilistic ending wherein Nucky doesn't learn a drat thing and is killed in a somewhat contrived balancing of the karmic scales. This may have actually played out pretty well if Nucky was the kind of character who evoked strong feelings, one way or the other, or as others have stated he rescues Gillian only to be killed tragically by Tommy, but ending the series with him being murdered after accomplishing nothing and not growing in the slightest ends up being not just incredibly dark, but incredibly bland.
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Oct 30, 2014 04:31
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I used to be on the Nucky is kind of boring train until the end of season 3 when all his hosed up issues involving money and dependence start really coming to the fore front. He doesn't even care much about money outside of it being the only thing he feels he has to offer other people. Every other bit of him is worthless and he thinks if you aren't on his payroll then you are probably leaving him. Dude sells his soul to acquire wealth that can't do a single bit of good for anyone he cares about. He is a weird central character but in the end I found him compelling. I mean, don't get me wrong, if the show's central figure was Stephen Graham's Capone that would have been awesome. ParliamentOfDogs fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 06:50
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Nucky is kind of boring only because we had so many characters that are much more interesting to watch. His storylines weren't awful by any means.
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Oct 30, 2014 07:27
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Astroman posted:Well the doctor was saying if pretty much anyone who knew her before would vouch for her sanity, she could go. Yeah, it would have been extremely easy for him to have helped but then he would have been forced to do something other than throw money at a problem and actually work to help her once outside the hospital and face what he has done to her on a routine basis.
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Oct 30, 2014 09:43
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Young Nucky was more interesting this season than Buscemi's Nucky ever was. I don't think that's actually Buscemi's fault though...
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Oct 30, 2014 10:28
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This whole last season was weird and felt disjointed. Previously Nucky seemed more like the character that was central to everything but wasn't the main character if that makes sense. Like an ensemble cast with Nucky as the thing that linked everyone together. That all changed this season, we got flash backs that I felt weren't need at all and he moved to main character. I can see what they were trying for but neither worked out well and it fell flat. Focusing on Capone would have been silly as he's been done to death and the AC stuff was the draw here, focusing on the cast as an ensemble and skipping the flashbacks is something I would have preferred but whatever, wasn't a bad ending just underwhelming.
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Oct 30, 2014 10:49
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The show really missed out by not having the Atlantic City conference happen in it and would really have helped make Luciano and Lansky taking over a bit more believable
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Oct 30, 2014 11:41
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In retrospect I like the framing of Gillian reaching out her hand to Nucky for a lift up at the mental hospital, its a lot more powerful once you see the final flashback scene. As for the ending in general yeah okay I guess. It's not the worst ending I could imagine nor the best. I guess I'll see how I feel about it in a few months. Poor, poor Gillian. P.S. Mabel should've been played by Alma Garrett, like in the photo we saw of her. I don't care if the actress is like, 50 now, we were PROMISED
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Oct 30, 2014 13:22
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Jose posted:The show really missed out by not having the Atlantic City conference happen in it and would really have helped make Luciano and Lansky taking over a bit more believable I agree. The wikipedia article talks about capone freaking out in the lobby and nucky showing up to calm things down. All the characters from the show would've been in the same place. It would've been the payoff for following so many disparate threads over the seasons.
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Oct 30, 2014 13:49
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I liked Nucky as a main character and I like that he wasn't an extreme character who is always either being the most horrible rear end in a top hat or having a big cry, like Tony Soprano or Walter White. He was mean/sympathetic enough, never too much of either.
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Oct 30, 2014 14:44
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Great ending to a great show. The guy who played young Nucky was brilliant, and the "reveal" of what started it all, even though I knew it was coming, was just heartbreaking. Someone said it earlier in the thread about Nucky projecting his own guilt on to others, that's why he didn't save Gillian from the ward. Deep inside he knew it was his fault but outwardly he could never admit it because he was still trying (and failing) to be good. That's what I take the meaning of his wife's words to mean. One can't be a good person while only caring about building a fortune for themselves. Handing pieces of that fortune out as gifts doesn't erase the guilt. Cheers to the thread for the discussion. I finished the finale last night and reading the last few pages has been a real treat. The disagreement people have about the finale is a great thing in my opinion. I know it's a cliche but man, it's a great era for TV drama.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:37
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Unzip and Attack posted:Cheers to the thread for the discussion. I finished the finale last night and reading the last few pages has been a real treat. The disagreement people have about the finale is a great thing in my opinion. I know it's a cliche but man, it's a great era for TV drama. It's good now but I don't think there will ever be an era that tops the Six Feet Under / Sopranos / Carnivale holy trinity.
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Oct 30, 2014 18:06
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That DICK! posted:P.S. Mabel should've been played by Alma Garrett, like in the photo we saw of her. I don't care if the actress is like, 50 now, we were PROMISED Haha, I had a friend who had been excitedly waiting for Molly Parker to show up ever since we saw that photo. He got so enthusiastic when the flashbacks started in season 5 
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Oct 30, 2014 21:21
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What exactly was the surgery the mental hospital was performing on patients? I would have expected them to be giving out lobotomies or something, but it was some sort of stomach surgery?
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Oct 30, 2014 23:19
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Most likely hysterectomies. I assume they believe removing the uterus and ovaries or whatever would cause the women to be calmer.
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Oct 30, 2014 23:22
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Ok that's what I was thinking but they seemed practically lobotimized afterwards afterwards (broken spirits I guess?). Were hysterectomies ever performed by making a big incision under the ribs like that though?
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Oct 30, 2014 23:28
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The Doctor in question was apparently a real life historical figure who believed that madness was a physical ailment that could be cured through the removal of "corrupt" parts of the bodies. He had the freedom and authority to do what he wanted when he wanted to his patients because they were in his "care" 
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Oct 30, 2014 23:31
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