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Burkion posted:Because THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE loving ROBOTS AND gently caress HANDLES FOR THAT. It's pretty much common parlance that "master" is masculine and "mistress" is feminine, whether that's etymologically true or not.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:37
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DoctorWhat posted:Man, I really hope that the Gomez Master isn't a direct follow-up from Simm. That's my biggest issue with it - I don't really buy a post-EOT Master doing this sort of thing. Frankly I'm still not QUITE sure this is the real legit Master. Everything about this just seems off, like why she'd have dick all to do with the Cybermen, or why she's suddenly even more forward with the Doctor than usual. I think half of their conversations has been her coming onto him- even Simm wasn't THAT obvious. (For real, I could not recall if Simm Master and The Doctor ever actually kissed or not. I had to actually stop and wonder) And again, if she CHANGES HER loving TITLE TO MISTRESS, I will be very cross with Moffat. It'd be exactly the bullshit I'm worried he'd pull with a lady Doctor- never mind the fact that the Master is a notorious misogynist, so she really shouldn't identify as a Time Lady in any respect. It'd be like the Doctor deciding to call himself Nurse or some other OVERTLY FEMALE VERSION OF DOCTOR if he ever regenerated into a woman. Really loving dumb and pointless. I'm honestly thinking this might all be because of that Cyber Mite that got away- I think it kept a copy of the Doctor's mind and intelligence, and maybe is using the memory of the Master to its advantage. Why it brought the Master back as a woman, I'm not sure.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:37
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DoctorWhat posted:Man, I really hope that the Gomez Master isn't a direct follow-up from Simm. That's my biggest issue with it - I don't really buy a post-EOT Master doing this sort of thing. Maybe Gomez regenerates into Jacobi?
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Nov 2, 2014 00:38
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TL posted:Maybe Gomez regenerates into Jacobi? So he fled the Time War in terror with a brief stop off at the Promised Land? I guess he could probably take his time escaping the pew-pew toy battle Time War, so that probably is it.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:40
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PriorMarcus posted:Well yeah, as soon as the Master regenerates into a woman he starts calling the Doctor his boyfriend, having a massive crush on him and snogging him passionately. It's the perils of being a woman in Moffat's eyes. Let's be honest, this is not exactly a giant leap from where the Simm version was, really. It's not like there wasn't already a boatload of sexual tension set up between the two. And I kind of love the reveal, mostly because The Master/Mistress's plan is just so... her. Army of Cybermen that will almost certainly turn on her once she's outlived her usefulness, forcing her to work with the Doctor to defeat them? Of course that's what she does.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:45
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Jerusalem posted:The other refers to BDSM! Psychiatrist's field day. Though no self respecting dominatrix would call herself "Missy".
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Nov 2, 2014 00:45
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Gaz-L posted:Let's be honest, this is not exactly a giant leap from where the Simm version was, really. It's not like there wasn't already a boatload of sexual tension set up between the two. This is standard operating procedure for the master. The Gallifreyan Matrix was a nice touch to explain the coming back from the dead thing. I'm all for the Pertwee/Delgado roleplaying.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:46
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Gaz-L posted:And I kind of love the reveal, mostly because The Master/Mistress's plan is just so... her. Haha yeah, as soon as I realized it was the Master I had to laugh at the thought of the inevitable moment when the Cybermen betray her or the Doctor points out that they will and she goes  because the thought never occurred to her.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:49
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I actually just posted a thing about the "Mistress" stuff and I think something similar might have run through Moffat's head during the writing process. So here it is:] YES, choosing “The Mistress” over “The Master”, and finally expressing long-suppressed physical affection towards the Doctor only when it would no longer be “gay”, and all that other business are ALL steeped deeply in gender-essentialism and heteronormativity and other gross stuff. But it’s also all INCREDIBLY IN-CHARACTER FOR THE MASTER. The Master has NEVER been progressive in regards to gender roles. He frequently talked down to women, used gendered insults and expressed sexist, childish attitudes (ex: Chantho), the whole thing with Lucy Saxon, et cetera. He’s always been a sexist git and there’s also that “freak” remark about Jack Harkness that’s clearly not JUST about Harkness’s immortality (it’s a continuation of the “prejudice” joke in Utopia). So I think it’s totally like the Master to NOT [experiment with gender-presentation or maintain a masculine identity] while the Master’s body is female. It’s completely unnecessary, sexist, arbitraty behavior, undoubtedly - but it’s also EXACTLY the sort of thing that the Master would do.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:55
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Sober posted:The details behind it seem to be like "your brain/consciousness is now in the cloud, but you still feel what happens to your body, but you have to choose whether or not to disconnect yourselves". I mean, Cybermen aren't exactly humane fellows so what's the real point of asking for permission exactly? I feel like the only reason this threshold exists is for Danny to reject it and allow him to be resurrected, and it doesn't seem like much of a loophole in the rules rather than there is a Danny-shaped exit he just needs to navigate to. I can buy the idea of spirits being able to feel what happens to their corpse, that is horrific and terrifying, it's great. I can also buy the idea of spirits wanting to delete their feelings because of that, leaving behind a terrible merciless robot brain, and how that voluntary act might be some kind of test of compatibility. What I don't understand is what or where this "afterlife" actually is. It's implied it's some kind of simulation running at 3W, yet apparently it can reach anyone who's dead through TV noise, at which point they're assessed for suitability (if they're not cremated first) and then presumably brought to 3W and put in a fish tank. I don't much like the clairvoyant thing but I guess since it's Moffat I might have to suck it up. Also what's with the wall of quotes and slo-mo phone dropping at the start? Gave me a bit of a Keyser Soze vibe. Hope that comes to something next week.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:58
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My favorite part of the episode... even more than the Cyberman eye door reveal... even more than the Master reveal (both of which I loved) was when the guy said the scientist theorized the voices were the voices of the dead, and the Doctor asks with total seriousness and severity, "Why... was he mad?" That delivery, combined with my own eye-rolling at the whole afterlife concept in Doctor Who, just made me completely lose it. Capaldi's the loving best. 
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Nov 2, 2014 00:59
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Also, it doesn't yet explain what the deal is with Missy apparently collecting people from across time.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:59
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Holy poo poo that Steve Jobs joke lol. Also I was so wrong about Missy. I didn't think it would be THAT obvious, so naturally we all suspected it had to be someone else, which actually made it surprising when she actually was the Master. Great episode, dark as gently caress, let's bring on the finale.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:00
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Eiba posted:Capaldi's the loving best. It's was even better because he ask "Why? ...Was he an idiot?"
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Nov 2, 2014 01:01
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dsub posted:I can buy the idea of spirits being able to feel what happens to their corpse, that is horrific and terrifying, it's great. The "afterlife" is a knock-off of the Gallifreyan Matrix, which holds the minds and "biodata" of all deceased Time Lords (and Ladies) past. This "nethersphere" is a gadget that the Mistress pretty clearly built/repurposed herself. The degree to which ANY of the claims made by Seb are "true" is therefore highly suspect. The "static voices" stuff, and the spirit-body connection, are all probably feigned for the purposes of manipulation.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:01
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With any luck, next week they'll point out the Cyberman that has Jobs' rotting (?) corpse inside. Perhaps it'll have a white glowing Apple on the chest rather than the blue lamp thing.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:01
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dsub posted:What I don't understand is what or where this "afterlife" actually is. It's implied it's some kind of simulation running at 3W, yet apparently it can reach anyone who's dead through TV noise, at which point they're assessed for suitability (if they're not cremated first) and then presumably brought to 3W and put in a fish tank. I don't much like the clairvoyant thing but I guess since it's Moffat I might have to suck it up. It's a virtual reality simulation powered by a far smaller version of the Matrix system in Gallifrey (first seen in The Deadly Assassin), basically a small hard drive as it is described in the episode but one capable of permanently storing the minds/personalities of people forever. People are collected at various points throughout time by the Master and have their minds inserted into this "Matrix slice" and told a bullshit story about it being the afterlife. All the stuff about the scientist who discovered the "truth", all the three words stuff and even the transmitted voices allegedly picked up on television white noise etc is just complete bullshit made up by the Master as cover for what she is doing, which is setting up an army to conquer the world and, more importantly to her, getting to gently caress over the Doctor.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:06
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I'm pretty sure the whole Nethersphere is a scam and that W3 doesn't have Jobs' body OR mind, really.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:06
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Not sure how I feel about Missy being "The Mistress." On the one hand, I unironically love that people called that poo poo after the season premiere, and I'm enjoying her well enough. On the other hand, well, this is Moffat writing a "bad girl" character again and that hasn't really turned out particularly well in the past. Love that it's the Cybermen, though, and I felt kind of dumb when I realized that the 3W logo is a Cyberman eye and I didn't notice. Darth Ronson posted:Also, it doesn't yet explain what the deal is with Missy apparently collecting people from across time. Time Lord tech. Why couldn't it do things across time?
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Nov 2, 2014 01:06
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DoctorWhat posted:I'm pretty sure the whole Nethersphere is a scam and that W3 doesn't have Jobs' body OR mind, really. Sorry for the double post.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:07
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DoctorWhat posted:I'm pretty sure the whole Nethersphere is a scam and that W3 doesn't have Jobs' body OR mind, really. So, what's the point of it? The scam isn't the Nethersphere which the public doesn't know about, it's allowing loved ones to Rest in Peace using their magic water tanks.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:08
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PriorMarcus posted:It's was even better because he ask "Why? ...Was he an idiot?" Clara, when not being bonkers, gave as good as she got: "Speak for me again, and I will detach something from you" 
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Nov 2, 2014 01:09
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PriorMarcus posted:So, what's the point of it? Well, we might well find out in Part 2, but it's also totally in-character for the Master to concoct unnecessarily complex plans and/or just gently caress with people arbitrarily. So therr may be no "point" to the Mistress's machinations other than self-obsession and showing off.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:09
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Jerusalem posted:It's a virtual reality simulation powered by a far smaller version of the Matrix system in Gallifrey (first seen in The Deadly Assassin), basically a small hard drive as it is described in the episode but one capable of permanently storing the minds/personalities of people forever. People are collected at various points throughout time by the Master and have their minds inserted into this "Matrix slice" and told a bullshit story about it being the afterlife. OK, cool. So what about the whole "don't cremate me" thing? You think that's weird chicanery too because it seems like if their personalities are stored forever it shouldn't matter what happens to their body. Perhaps this system doesn't work so great on humans because we're all sickly and magic inside? Or should I just watch The Deadly Assassin?
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Nov 2, 2014 01:15
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dsub posted:OK, cool. So what about the whole "don't cremate me" thing? You think that's weird chicanery too because it seems like if their personalities are stored forever it shouldn't matter what happens to their body. Perhaps this system doesn't work so great on humans because we're all sickly and magic inside? Or should I just watch The Deadly Assassin? It's ALL a scam. The voices in the static are all fabricated for the benefit of whatever "government inspectors" (and private investors, presumably) have been coming around the 3W facilities. Plus, Cybermen need BODIES, not ashes. They gotta disincentivize cremation and attract "after-care" customers (read: spare parts)
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Nov 2, 2014 01:18
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dsub posted:OK, cool. So what about the whole "don't cremate me" thing? You think that's weird chicanery too because it seems like if their personalities are stored forever it shouldn't matter what happens to their body. Perhaps this system doesn't work so great on humans because we're all sickly and magic inside? Or should I just watch The Deadly Assassin? It's so people willingly delete their emotions and sign up for the Mistress's Cyberman army. Not everyone has PTSD from accidental child murder or a girlfriend willing to kick down the gates of heaven like Danny. But most people will freak out at the idea of feeling their body incinerate and will consider using an app to avoid the emotional trauma and physical pain. On another note, I liked that the 3W logo is a Cyberman eye.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:18
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The Master has always been really flamboyant in his own way. There's really no contradiction in terms of her character for her to act the way she has been acting as the Mistress. Honestly, this kind of "bad girl" "he really likes me and I'm so sassy" works a lot better for Missy, with all their history, than it did for a random character like River Song. This is a totally natural evolution of Simm's manic Master. If the character's problematic in other terms... it's hard for me to figure. She's a villain, so obviously not a role model, but that doesn't make a huge difference to how she's being portrayed as a woman ("the master has always been sexist" doesn't seem like a good defense to me). I don't know, it's too weird a sci-fi conceit for me to wrap my head around in those terms. Like, she's clearly not representing someone who's transgender in the sense that they identified as the other gender before their physical transition, nor is she representing someone who's inherently a woman. So however she acts... it's not really registering on my offend-o-meter as being a poor representation of any actual group. That's not to say anyone's wrong for being upset at the characterization. If anything I'm inclined to assume it's somehow problematic just because Moffat's involved. I'd just need it explained more clearly what the issue is, 'cause I'm not really getting it right now. PriorMarcus posted:It's was even better because he ask "Why? ...Was he an idiot?" There were so many great bits with Capaldi. Earlier he may have come off like too much of an rear end in a top hat for me when I wasn't expecting it, but now that I'm just going with the flow of this Doctor it's pretty amazing. When he started taking back control in the opening scene in Mt. Doom, and told Clara to throw the key away, was another example. He made an otherwise really, really silly scene kind of awesome with his force of personality alone.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:19
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Darth Ronson posted:Also, it doesn't yet explain what the deal is with Missy apparently collecting people from across time. You'd think that a Time Lord with probably a working Tardis could do something like that.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:19
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Eiba posted:When he started taking back control in the opening scene in Mt. Doom I quite enjoyed that scene but yeah I was kinda waiting for Gollum to leap out behind a rock grabbing for one of the keys at some point. But I guess they decided not to subject us to Adric's return.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:21
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Super.Jesus posted:You'd think that a Time Lord with probably a working Tardis could do something like that. And it's probably so she can respond to the Doctor accusing her of murdering people for her plan by going "Me? Oh, I didn't kill them, Doctor. YOU did.  "
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Nov 2, 2014 01:24
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drat, this is, what, the third time Doctor Who has (likely independently) developed a concept someone also did on the SCP Foundation? There's an SCP that explores the corpses continue to feel their existence after 'death' and how horrible that is. Can't remember the specific one; all I remember about it is the core concept and that it's written in SCP form instead of a short story form unnecessarily. With the Master reveal, what comes to mind for me is something one of the guys at Red Vs Blue discussed about some plot point fans guessed: sometimes, your audience will predict things, no matter how random they are. Oh, and a gif request, if at all possible: Clara's reaction to Missy kissing the Doctor. She does a turn-away, pauses slightly, then turns a bit more. The entire time with a "I don't know if I've turned enough, yet." EDIT: and someone tell me how askew hats like that don't fall off. Is there, like, a strap of some sort? MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 01:26
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This puts a whole new perspective on the Missy calling the Doctor her boyfriend.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:29
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MisterBibs posted:
Pins.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:37
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MisterBibs posted:She does a turn-away, pauses slightly, then turns a bit more. The entire time with a "I don't know if I'm turned on enough, yet." FTFY
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Nov 2, 2014 01:39
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Episode was...intense. I thought the dream sequence thing was probably the Moffatest part of the episode, but it worked well. As for the Missy reveal, after watching the episode a second time, it's really obvious (if you keep in mind that a lot of this season has a very "Classic Series" vibe to it). Next Saturday can't come soon enough.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:41
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Gaz-L posted:It's so people willingly delete their emotions and sign up for the Mistress's Cyberman army. Not everyone has PTSD from accidental child murder or a girlfriend willing to kick down the gates of heaven like Danny. But most people will freak out at the idea of feeling their body incinerate and will consider using an app to avoid the emotional trauma and physical pain. I like this explanation best. It's an empty threat.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:50
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PriorMarcus posted:It's was even better because he ask "Why? ...Was he an idiot?" I literally laughed out loud super loving hard at that line/delivery
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Nov 2, 2014 01:53
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dsub posted:I like this explanation best. It's an empty threat. It works just as well for non-cremated folks. For all we know, they tell folks who aren't going to be cremated that even natural decomposition is painful and horrific. Related, it's only an empty threat if it's not true. Unrelated, I think I just figured out why I dislike the new Cybermen costumes compared with the Cybus ones. The Cybus ones looked like Fallout Power Armor: big, heavy, tanklike. You could look at one and think "yeah, if the rest of the organics went away inside it, it'd still function". These? These look too lithe, too needs-a-full-body-to-function.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:09
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Well that's certainly not an impression I want to get from a cyborg.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:12
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Jerusalem posted:All the stuff about the scientist who discovered the "truth", all the three words stuff and even the transmitted voices allegedly picked up on television white noise etc is just complete bullshit made up by the Master as cover for what she is doing, which is setting up an army to conquer the world and, more importantly to her, getting to gently caress over the Doctor. The founder's name is Dr. Skarosa. It's one of those little things the Master would do just so he could later gloat and say "How did you miss that?" I'm really enjoying all these little insights about things in the episode I didn't pick up on right away.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:12
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