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Luczak posted:Like the Paladin/Wizard who only knows one spell: "Suplex". Paladin and sorcerer are just generally decent multiclassing things, even ignoring stats. Paladins have great defenses and Sorcerer is a good way to add some extra oomph to a multiclass. In fact the two most broken multiclass characters I made are Sorcerer/Wizard and Fighter/Paladin. Although, arguably, they're still not as bullshit as the bard I made.
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Oct 28, 2014 21:28
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djw175 posted:Paladin and sorcerer are just generally decent multiclassing things, even ignoring stats. Paladins have great defenses and Sorcerer is a good way to add some extra oomph to a multiclass. In fact the two most broken multiclass characters I made are Sorcerer/Wizard and Fighter/Paladin. Although, arguably, they're still not as bullshit as the bard I made. That loving Sorcerer/Wizard, man.
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Oct 28, 2014 21:32
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-Fish- posted:That loving Sorcerer/Wizard, man. I only oneshot one boss. Out of one.
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Oct 28, 2014 21:41
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djw175 posted:I only oneshot one boss. Out of one. You one-shot killed 100% of the bosses on our campaign, dude.
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Oct 28, 2014 22:05
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What are Paladin/Sorcerer multiclasses like, then? That might be a fun thing to play if my group ever gets back to 13A again. I'll have to crack open my books and check how viable that is.
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Oct 28, 2014 23:05
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Spiderfist Island posted:What are Paladin/Sorcerer multiclasses like, then? That might be a fun thing to play if my group ever gets back to 13A again. I'll have to crack open my books and check how viable that is. It wouldn't be terrible, just because you'd have the paladin's defenses and the sorcerer's spells. Thinking about it, it's one of the few multiclasses where you might take Spellfist. I mean you're spreading your stats three ways then, but you'd be investing in CON anyway as a frontline fighter. You'd also have to ascertain if Smite Evil counted as a spell for gathering power. If so, I'd say grab the Evil Bastard talent because then you'd be all but guaranteed to get at least one additional use of Smite Evil. D8 recovery dice and 7+CON health are decent. Bards and rogues get by on them just fine without the Paladin's defenses. STR/CHA isn't too bad of a spread considering it's what many paladins do anyway.
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Oct 28, 2014 23:14
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Really any of the classes that get bonus talents are good to multiclass with beccause you're losing less overall and you get new talents as you go! Ranger is especially good because basically all of its talents except double attack are passives or can be feated to apply elsewhere. I made a multiclass Ranger/Fighter with Deadeye Archer/Archery/Tracker/(Comeback Strike or Power Attack)/Animal Companion and it was super neat, though not as big numbers-y as one who took Lethal Hunter and First Strike/Favored Enemy. Once per day you can just get the gently caress rid of a guy by marking him in round 3 and using a Lethal First Strike Power Attack (crits on an 11+ with feats) which does 4x damage and can be rerolled if it doesn't crit.
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Oct 28, 2014 23:20
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The way they did the multi-classing is a bit strange a slopshod feeling at times. Some class combinations really benefit and others really lose out. In general you want to avoid overlap because nothing stacks. You have to decide which class you'll be for your standard, quick, move, and interrupt actions. If you're a fighter then you'll want to use your standard as a fighter, but you don't have anything to do with your quick. If you're a cleric you have lots of powerful quick actions but your standard is weak. If you stick them together you'll basically be a fighter and a cleric on the field and be almost as good as two characters. But if you're a fighter/warrior druid both classes focus on standard actions and instead of being as good as two characters you'll be worse than one. There's an exception for daily focused classes like wizard/sorcerer. With those classes you still benefit from overlapping actions because you have more limited use actions than you would normally. Commander is probably the most universally good multiclass because its main features trigger off-turn and you can choose to rely on daily or recharge abilities. You'll be more starved for command points but there are talents to mitigate that and you can avoid commands that demand a ton of points.
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Oct 28, 2014 23:50
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A cleric/commander that spends every standard using Weigh the Odds seems like the ultimate Lazylord. Also, I laughed way too hard at the phrase "get the gently caress rid of a guy".
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Oct 28, 2014 23:54
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No power overlap is a bit weird sometimes. It doesn't effect some things it feels like it should. For example the Fighter's threatening and the Paladin's challenge don't cancel each other out, so you have a 7-9 minus to disengage checks.
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Oct 29, 2014 00:21
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Hmm speaking of classes that gain talents as they level, how would a Barbarian/Ranger combo work?
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Oct 29, 2014 03:01
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Ryuujin posted:Hmm speaking of classes that gain talents as they level, how would a Barbarian/Ranger combo work? Really well. I'm not 100% sure if two-weapon fighting counts as a power for the sake of the no power overlap rule, but if you're a Barbarian wielding two weapons it's basically a +1 to hit all day every day. Also, burning your two Ranger talents on an animal companion might be worth it, because the animal companion is completely independent of you and thus has no power overlap. Incidentally, I think the Paladin actually combos really well with any class that uses flexible attacks: the only reason the Paladin will ever make a Paladin melee attack is for Smite Evil, so every turn you're not doing that you can make flexible attacks. When you really want to dish out the pain, you declare that you're using Smite Evil.
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Oct 29, 2014 10:28
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djw175 posted:It wouldn't be terrible, just because you'd have the paladin's defenses and the sorcerer's spells. Thinking about it, it's one of the few multiclasses where you might take Spellfist. I mean you're spreading your stats three ways then, but you'd be investing in CON anyway as a frontline fighter. You'd also have to ascertain if Smite Evil counted as a spell for gathering power. If so, I'd say grab the Evil Bastard talent because then you'd be all but guaranteed to get at least one additional use of Smite Evil. D8 recovery dice and 7+CON health are decent. Bards and rogues get by on them just fine without the Paladin's defenses. STR/CHA isn't too bad of a spread considering it's what many paladins do anyway. Truth be told a single-classed paladin should pretty much always take Way of Evil Bastards unless you're going for something in particular with the other one or you're heavy into defense. Being able to squeeze out another smite or two really makes a difference offensively and +4 to attack/half damage on a miss means you can very reliably finish off a target who got staggered then whacked once or twice. Str/Cha sucks though. At least on a single-class paladin you can leave Cha a little low in most cases and base defenses are solid enough that as long as you don't dump Con (you won't) you'll have a respectable number in all of them. Ryuujin posted:Hmm speaking of classes that gain talents as they level, how would a Barbarian/Ranger combo work? The key to Barbarian/Ranger is to take Whirlwind and Two-Weapon Mastery with the multiclass feat that lets it cross over and the feats for both those talents. The +1 to attack is nice, but doing double your level in miss damage when using Whirlwind against several targets adds up very fast, and your increased AC from Ranger makes the AC hit less noticeable. You'll pretty much always be using Barbarian attacks so Animal Companion is a good secondary Ranger talent to take, as is the cleric spell one to grab a quick action buff like Bless, Shield of Faith, Hammer of Faith, or Strength of the Gods.
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Oct 29, 2014 13:33
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[quote="Ratpick" post=""43694973"] Also, burning your two Ranger talents on an animal companion might be worth it, because the animal companion is completely independent of you and thus has no power overlap. [/quote] Doesn't burning two talents on the Animal Companion net you Daily powers now?
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Oct 29, 2014 13:41
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MadScientistWorking posted:Doesn't burning two talents on the Animal Companion net you Daily powers now? My understanding of it was that those Daily spells were for the Animal Companion Adept Druid only, but I haven't read that particular bit of the Druid in too much detail, so you're probably right. e: Yes, you're totally right, just read the bit in question. Ratpick fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 15:24
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Hmm so does Dual Weapon not work, because of the whole one classes powers can't work on the others? And so what talents would you suggest? It sounds like Whirlwind from Barbarian and Two-Weapon Mastery from Ranger, which leaves 1 talent from one or the other class to start, unless I am mistaken about how multiclassing works haven't taken a look at the rules for it recently. And as I understand it you gain new talents from both classes as you level, just a level behind when you would normally get them? I think spells come a level late? What about weapon damage? Also would that mean the daily abilities for the two talent companion also come in a level later?
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Oct 29, 2014 17:33
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Ryuujin posted:Hmm so does Dual Weapon not work, because of the whole one classes powers can't work on the others? And so what talents would you suggest? As for weapon damage, if your combo only contains classes from a list of "fights good" classes you don't reduce your weapon damage. Rangers and Barbarians are both in this category, so you won't take a hit to your weapon damage. Your level-dependent weapon damage won't be affected: if you're a Barbarian/Ranger level 2 fighting with a greatsword, you deal 2d10+mod damage. You've got talents right: you start with the usual three, but you must pick at least one from each class, so in the end you'll have two talents from one class and one from the other. Also, your later talents will come one level late. Dual Weapon does work. The "no power crossovers" rule just means that you can't mix bonuses from two classes on the same attack (unless you have a feat that says so), and if one of your classes relies on flexible attacks you can't make use of the bonuses from your other class while making flexible attacks (so no Smiting or Dual Weapon with flexible attacks). With the Barbarian in the mix it specifically means that when you're Raging you can't use Dual Weapon during the Rage. However, the Barbarian Adventurer multiclass feat addresses this to an extent, allowing you to make attacks from your other class during your Rage. You still won't be able to mix the benefit of rolling twice from Rage with this attack. The Champion multiclass feat for the Barbarian allows you to do this though, so once per battle (I think?) you could make a Dual Weapon attack while getting all the benefits of Rage on the attack. And yes, if you take the two talent animal companion, your spells for it will come a level later. The entry for Druids already shows how many daily spells you get each level, also accounting for level 1 multiclass characters. I hope that clears some things up.  e: As far as what I suggest, instead of Dual Weapon, look at Two Weapon Mastery: the Ranger has an Adventurer multiclass feat that allows you to use the bonus from it with all attacks from your other class, not even being limited to once per battle or once per day like some of the other multiclass feats. +1 to all attacks while wielding two weapons combined with Rage and your various other Barbarian attacks is nothing to sneeze at, especially since fighting with two weapons always comes with the benefit of being able to reroll natural 2 attack rolls. Ratpick fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 17:48
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I wouldn't recommend the Barbarian multiclass feats unless you're tossing around some significant firepower with that 1/battle melee attack, and probably not even then because a multiclass character has so many things worth spending feats on compared to a single-class.
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Oct 30, 2014 06:50
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-Fish- posted:You one-shot killed 100% of the bosses on our campaign, dude. By the way, I forgot to ask about this: how? I'm guessing Diverse Gathering and Evocation, but I want to be sure. Speaking of which, I started thinking of the Bard/Ranger that starts with spells from the Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard. On paper it seems hilariously versatile. You get your Bard spell, can pick one of the quick action Cleric spells that doesn't hinge on any ability score (like Cure Wounds), pick a Sorcerer spell that already uses your casting stat and can also pick a Wizard spell like Shield for good measure to use outside of your own turn.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:44
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Ratpick posted:By the way, I forgot to ask about this: how? I'm guessing Diverse Gathering and Evocation, but I want to be sure. quote:Speaking of which, I started thinking of the Bard/Ranger that starts with spells from the Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard. On paper it seems hilariously versatile. You get your Bard spell, can pick one of the quick action Cleric spells that doesn't hinge on any ability score (like Cure Wounds), pick a Sorcerer spell that already uses your casting stat and can also pick a Wizard spell like Shield for good measure to use outside of your own turn. I have heard this called the Ultimate Arcane College Dropout, it sounds fantastic. And you don't even take a damage die penalty! Holy poo poo! If only 13TW had been out when I made the character I'm playing in Doomsayer's epic clusterfuck. Captain Walker fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 16:58
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The best part of being the ultimate dropout is that as you level up, you slowly become a student of and then drop out of Druid school by taking Animal Companion initiate and adept with your bonus talents. So good.
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Oct 30, 2014 19:15
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:The best part of being the ultimate dropout is that as you level up, you slowly become a student of and then drop out of Druid school by taking Animal Companion initiate and adept with your bonus talents. So good. And if you take all the feats for Jack of Spells, you can also minor in Necromancy and Chaos Magic!
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Oct 30, 2014 20:04
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Ratpick posted:By the way, I forgot to ask about this: how? I'm guessing Diverse Gathering and Evocation, but I want to be sure. You can make the wizard spell use your casting stat too with a feat.
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Oct 30, 2014 20:22
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In cases of stuff like the necromancer summoned minions (specifically the crumbling skeletons with their resist 16+) how do you handle circumstantial bonuses? The skeletons in this case resist all weapon attacks. Do you just go with any attacks vs AC, any attacks PERIOD, non-elemental damage, or does it have to actually be a physical attack?
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Oct 31, 2014 23:23
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Weapon Damage as a name is misleading, but it's any damage that doesn't have a specified type.
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Nov 1, 2014 00:04
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:Weapon Damage as a name is misleading, but it's any damage that doesn't have a specified type. Ok, that's how I had ruled it. Good to know!
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Nov 1, 2014 01:11
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:Weapon Damage as a name is misleading, but it's any damage that doesn't have a specified type. Nah, Weapon Damage means what it says. The Skeleton page of the core book specifies, and page 253 on customizing monsters lists their resistance as having that specific weakness as a defense the PCs can "unlock": "Skeletons have resist weapons 16+ . . . but they can be killed just fine by spells and energy." The Skeleton page also encourages adjusting that resistance to whatever works best for your campaign, though (i.e. heavy weapons smash skeletons easily), so don't worry too much.
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Nov 1, 2014 09:56
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ikks posted:Nah, Weapon Damage means what it says. The Skeleton page of the core book specifies, and page 253 on customizing monsters lists their resistance as having that specific weakness as a defense the PCs can "unlock": "Skeletons have resist weapons 16+ . . . but they can be killed just fine by spells and energy." You may notice that the only thing that really does untyped damage is weapons. It more applies to what counts as weapons for monsters in this case because it was asked about summoned creatures. There's a bunch of monsters that do untyped damage but don't technically use weapons. But because of how it works, it counts as weapon damage.
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Nov 1, 2014 11:35
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I'd say it's up to you and your group (or your DM if they're the pushy type). But in my opinion skeletons would resist any "physical" damage, basically. So damage that's not typed is usually it, whether it's a sword or an owlbear's claw. If you want to keep the old school D&D feel then they could not be resistant to crushing damage etc but they're probably weak enough with the physical resistance.
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Nov 1, 2014 13:29
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But it's not just untyped damage - if there was a breath weapon than just did "damage" it would get round the resistance. It's that old staple of skeletons having to be bashed down in order to die (again). Fists, claws, tails arrows yes. Untyped magic damage, breath weapons, etc no.
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Nov 1, 2014 16:23
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Aren't skeletons and all manner of undead traditionally vulnerable to fire? Wouldn't that extend to breath weapons? E: wait I think I read this wrong
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Nov 1, 2014 17:55
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 Finally finished up the statblocks on my tribute to the Winds of Destruction, The Earthshakers.
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Nov 1, 2014 22:17
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Captain Walker posted:On the subject of druidity, I reworked a couple talents for the Seeker (this is the link everyone click it) so if you're not content being a souped-up ranger, you can now take certain initiate Druid talents, with an option to power up your poo poo to adept using a daily resource. It's not to the answer to the woes of the caster or warrior Druid builds (the answer is "play another class") but I'd wager it's good for people who just want to play a nature person. As an aside, I still don't quite know how Resourceful Stalker is supposed to work or what it actually does. I'm not even entirely sure how the trick-shots are supposed to apply since a lot of the adventurer tier ones result in rerolls or extra attacks, or don't seem to target an enemy. Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 04:15
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Der Waffle Mous posted:As an aside, I still don't quite know how Resourceful Stalker is supposed to work or what it actually does. I'm not even entirely sure how the trick-shots are supposed to apply since a lot of the adventurer tier ones result in rerolls or extra attacks, or don't seem to target an enemy. It was meant to simulate the bard's "activate a flexible attack without needing a certain roll" thing which works better for the bard, really, because it's a support class. Cunning Stalker is my least favorite talent and it kind of shows.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:56
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Ah, it kinda seemed like it was something that was written with a different set of trick shots in mind. That said I've been playing it (or rather older versions of it) for a few months and have been finding it pretty fun. Relentless Hunter is pretty fun and basically being a master of all ranged weapons is pretty great for getting my hawkguy/bullseye on. Mind, I'm only effectively level 2 so I haven't been able to comment on some of the higher-level stuff. I think my only big complaint that isn't tied to balance changes is that getting to second level (and maybe all of the even levels, looking at it) feels kinda empty since aside from the feat its just your numbers going up. You only get a new trick-shot (and potentially a new boon) when you hit odd levels, which are also when you get access to the higher level pool. Most of the other power-using classes seem to stagger (or at least front-load) the advancement so that you get a new power/slot/what have you one level and then next level while you still have the same number of slots, you can replace one with something new.
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Nov 3, 2014 01:13
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Good catch. Remedied. (hopefully.)
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Nov 3, 2014 01:57
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I think my only big complaint that isn't tied to balance changes is that getting to second level (and maybe all of the even levels, looking at it) feels kinda empty since aside from the feat its just your numbers going up. You only get a new trick-shot (and potentially a new boon) when you hit odd levels, which are also when you get access to the higher level pool. Most of the other power-using classes seem to stagger (or at least front-load) the advancement so that you get a new power/slot/what have you one level and then next level while you still have the same number of slots, you can replace one with something new.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:15
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Looking at the 13A Vault it looks like there's already three warlocks and a binder. Which one do you guys prefer? I like making content but I don't want to reinvent the wheel. More generally, what's the Goon Approved list of good homebrew classes you allow in your games? Stalwart, obviously, and probably most of the stuff polished into PDF format by Ryven and co (Theurge, Dilettante, Field-Commander, Lurker). Anything else?
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Nov 3, 2014 17:44
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I just got the Bestiary last night and have been reading it obsessively. I love the plot hooks and the icon relationship things, but this bit in the kobold entry makes me legit angry:13th Age Bestiary posted:Great Gold Wyrm: He is the mightiest of dragons, after all. Perhaps there are a couple of “gold-kobolds” who make scale mail out of copper coins and join his crusade. Kobolds fighting on the side of good confuses everybody, including the kobolds, who sometimes slip back into bad habits. Like, this part pisses me off because I want to play this little guy and there are no official kobold PC stats anywhere! (I was thinking that using the Dragonspawn/Dragonic and taking the OUT "The world's biggest kobold" would probably cut it, but it wouldn't feel quite the same.)
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Nov 3, 2014 19:05
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Ratpick posted:I just got the Bestiary last night and have been reading it obsessively. I love the plot hooks and the icon relationship things, but this bit in the kobold entry makes me legit angry: It's super easy to homebrew a race though. Kobolds would probably be: +2 Dex or +2 Cha (got to be a chaos mage) But how about race powers? The book says "Each race option provides a power that a character can use once per battle. ... A few races also have additional persistent racial abilities, like small from halflings and gnomes". Well, we can probably knab small for a kobold race as that suits the theme. But what is the defining ability of Kobolds as a monster? It's this little text at the bottom of most their stat blocks: "Evasive: Kobolds take no damage from missed attacks" Are there any existing racial powers that match that Trait? Yes! The Halflings power is called Evasive, might as well take that. And there you have it, Kobolds as a playable race, re-skinned Halflings with +2 Cha rather than +2 Con.
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Nov 3, 2014 20:30
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