|
Libluini posted:You asked me and I answered. Also google translate is a thing. If you still want to know more about what I've been reading about the history of the German language, I can try to dig out my own sources somewhere in my old folders and try to find some books, hopefully even with English translations available. I asked where the word "Theurge" is from, and on what basis do you claim High German was a Carolingian creole. That paste doesn't explain either. "Theodiscus" is just the Latin form of the Germanic "*ţiudiskaz", and I wasn't talking about the etymology of the word "Deutsch". I was curious mostly because what you said sounded like a pop-history myth.
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 01:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 13:26 |
|
|
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm still searching, since you're apparently interested in this. Tomorrow I'll look through my folders again. (Well, technically today since it's half past 1 am right now.  )homullus posted:I have no idea where you're getting "Theurge", which is a totally different word. I think this is what you are talking about? Could be, could be that Theurge is an even older form. Which is why I still want to find my old papers and notes, because the sources are mentioned there. (And I've completely forgotten them myself by now, so it could be I just mangled the spelling.) Libluini fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 01:32
|
|
|
The arena floor in the Colosseum might be restored. http://www.traveller.com.au/romes-colosseum-arena-floor-should-be-restored--minister-11fwa3 SMH posted:Italy's culture minister has backed a proposal to rebuild the floor of Rome's Colosseum, allowing visitors to stand in the arena where gladiators once fought. Thoughts? Personally I found the Colosseum to be slightly disappointing because one cannot go in the centre. I'm not too sure about these 'events', but being able to stand in the arena would surely give people a different perspective.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 01:35
|
|
|
quote:"I like (the idea) very much," Culture Minister Darion Franceschini wrote on Twitter on Sunday. "All is needed is a bit of courage." Given it's the Italian government, that's more like "all is needed is a few million Euros in my Swiss bank account". It would be cool if it happened, though, definitely.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 01:52
|
|
|
RPZip posted:This is from a few days ago, but you're thinking of it in the wrong context. It's not secretary in the sense of a typing assistant, it's Secretary as in Secretary of State/Defense/Agriculture/whatever. I meant that Imperial Secretary gives no sense of what the position's responsibilities are, while Grand Censor does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 03:54
|
|
|
I'd just be concerned with how destructive the restoration would be. There's a very fine line between preventing further damage to an ancient building and causing harm by introducing new structures and elements it either wasn't designed to handle or is too damaged to. For example, a lot of the structures that would support a floor are pretty decayed, at least as I remember them from the time I went there. How do you put a floor in that will support tourists (much less whatever equipment, etc these supposed "events" would require) without further damaging them. Does turning an already-crumbling 2,000 year old wall into a load bearing structure again really sound like a good idea? Also what is putting a floor on it going to do to the area under it? What would it do to ambient humidity down there, for example? What happens to the stonework as it either dries out or gets wetter (whichever way that swings) over the next 20 years? And events? How do you make the ruin accessible for public events? That means renovating the stage and seating areas enough to be able to support rudimentary seats . . . and when all that's said and done, how much underlying ancient structure do you cover over and (perhaps destructively) reinforce in order to have what amounts to a half-assed modern arena? Just look at this loving thing:  Ancient sites need to be conserved, not restored. There are a lot of really hosed up ancient monuments that have serious problems due to 18th, 19th and early 20th century attempts at restoration, however well meaning they may have been.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 04:13
|
|
|
That doesn't look like it'd hold all the water for the boat battles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 08:27
|
|
|
Libluini posted:Could be, could be that Theurge is an even older form. Theurge is a nice word, but it means something completely different.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 08:51
|
|
|
They should just build a new Colosseum within walking distance, so that tourists can compare and contrast and maybe fight each other in the arena.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 09:25
|
|
|
Zopotantor posted:Theurge is a nice word, but it means something completely different. I know, and I'm sorry. I've found my notes and yes, I completely misremembered. The word I was searching for was "Thiuda", or "theodiscus" in Latin. And now after I checked my sources, I do understand why this is almost unknown outside of Germany: All my sources are in German, with no English translation available. Geschichte der deutschen Sprache (History of the German language), by Peter von Polenz and Norbert Richard Wolf, 2008 Mit der Muttersprache auf Talfahrt (With the motherlanguage on the slide), by Andreas Baumert, 2005 (The title is a pun, I've no idea if that still works translated.) There are two older books listed in my sources, both from the Seventies, but the chances for finding English translations here is even less likely, at this point you've entered the world of German academia: Deutsche Sprachgeschichte, Band 1: das Althochdeutsche (German Languagehistory, volume 1: Old High German), by Hans Eggers, 1977 Geschichte der deutschen Sprache, 9. Auflage (History of the German language, 9th edition), by Adolf Bach, 1970 So this is all, promise fullfilled. Oh wait, for those of you who have German friends or can read German, I have at least this and this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 10:49
|
|
|
Civil War: 190-208 AD When we left off, the city of Luoyang and the child Emperor and Crown Prince had just fallen into the hands of Dong Zhuo, governor-general of Liang province, and his veteran army of the northwest frontier. Dong Zhuo had been invited into the capital by He Jin, leader of the Empress Dowager's He clan, who had died before he arrived. The debacle in the capital that killed He Jin also eliminated the eunuchs, leaving both factions that had dominated court politics dead or at least powerless. Yuan Shao, general of the Imperial Guard, and Cao Cao, General of Cavalry, had been in the capital but both fled upon Dong Zhuo's decision to depose Emperor Shao. This is in late 189, the same year the Emperor Ling died. Dong Zhuo had a history of insubordination and a veteran army at his back, and took over Luoyang with only the flimsiest pretext of maintaining the Emperor's rule. He deposed the Emperor Shao and named his younger brother the Crown Prince as the new Emperor Xian, quietly poisoning Empress Dowager He and the child emperor Shao. He then created himself Chancellor, the highest post in the Han government and one that had been abolished almost a hundred years ago. To top it off, he took up residence in the Imperial Palace and history records that he took liberties with the Emperor's property, including his harem, that the capital officials found distasteful and disrespectful. But with the general of the Imperial Guard fled and his men folded into Dong Zhuo's army on the Chancellor's authority, there was no force in the capital region immediately available to evict the man whom everyone suspected of imminent usurpation. The powerful and wealthy governors, generals, and governors-general of the Han empire probably were not sure what to do at this point. The crisis in Luoyang had been very sudden, playing out within months of Emperor Ling's death. Dong Zhuo held the capital and the emperor, but his position was clearly illegitimate. Dong Zhuo made overtures to Yuan Shao and others, offering titles, but in the event no one accepted his offers. Whatever was going through the minds of the great men of the empire, within a few weeks of Dong Zhuo's capital of Luoyang the decision was made for them. Qiao Miao, administrator of Dong Commandery (sort of like a count in terms of power) took the matter into his own hands. He caused letters to be forged, purporting to be from the high officials of the capital and denouncing Dong Zhuo's conduct, begging for the governors and generals to evict Dong Zhuo from the capital and restore the Han government. The provincial governors began raising their armies and scheduled a council of war at Hangu pass not far to the east of Luoyang. A round dozen of governors and generals representing large sections of the professional army and Han territory attended the meeting at Hangu and officially formed the Guandu Coalition to oppose Dong Zhuo, but were less than sanguine about actually assaulting Luoyang. Cao Cao and Sun Jian, a talented general who rose to prominence in the Yellow Turban Rebellion, were notable voices in favor of attack, but the majority of leaders present including Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu, brothers who together represented a large constituency of the professional army, were against. I'll give the list of notables who showed up from wikipedia: wiki posted:Yuan Shu, General of the Rear (後將軍)[4] For part of 190 the coalition sat and surrounded Luoyang with their armies in a large semicircle, cutting it off from the north, east and south from the rest of China. Once again, it's impossible to know what was going through everyone's mind at the time. Once again, their decision was eventually made for them, when Dong Zhuo did something so shocking that no one, not even the people close to him, anticipated it. Life in the embargoed but not quite besieged Luoyang got progressively worse over the months of the coalition. Dong Zhuo was, supposedly, increasingly self-indulgent and unstable. He purged the court and tortured captured enemy soldiers personally, so we are told. Whether the stories of him boiling men alive or gouging their eyes out are true or not, he was deeply unpopular in the capital. He melted Qin Shi Huang's massive bronzes to mint coins and when that ran out looted the wealth of the capital. Finally, driven to desperation by the decaying situation within the capital and the armies arrayed against him, Dong Zhuo determined to relocate the Imperial court to Chang'an and to raze Luoyang behind him. The entire city was ordered to pack up and march. Dong Zhou's army burned Luoyang to the ground and hounded a massive column of civilians west. Whatever plans the coalition might have had were dashed to pieces when the news of the city's burning reached their camps. The retreat from Luoyang and the razing of the city is remembered as a disaster. The economy within the capital was already collapsing and the households of the city had been looted by Dong Zhuo's soldiers. The citizens were not prepared for marching 500 miles. By all accounts the retreat was chaotic and the imperial court, including the Emperor, endured great hardships on the road to the old western capital. How many people remained within the city when it was burned is unknown. Chen Shou only says: The number of innocent dead was beyond counting. We'll leave the coalition in their camps for the moment and follow Dong Zhuo. When the news reached the coalition, Cao Cao and Sun Jian took their armies and took off after Dong Zhuo's column. Sun Jian and Cao Cao's volunteer armies caught up with Dong Zhuo's rearguard more than once, but were soundly defeated in a series of minor actions by Dong Zhuo's veteran Liang Province frontier army. Without doing any serious damage Cao and Sun Jian disengaged as the coalition collapsed and endangered their political status at home. Dong Zhuo reached Chang'an and installed the court there, but the empire, descending into a state of chaotic civil war, did not acknowledge his rule. Despite having precipitated the civil war Dong Zhuo was not a major player in it. He and his army essentially sat in Chang'an and did nothing in the opening years of the civil war. According to Records Dong Zhuo's behavior became increasingly sadistic and erratic over 191 and 192. Sources used by both Chen Shou and Pei Songzhi seem to agree that sometime in 192 Dong Zhuo, in a fit of rage, threw an ax at his general, chief bodyguard, and adopted son Lu Bu*. After this event Lu Bu was receptive to overtures by Wang Yun, Director of the Imperial Secretariat, and other palace officials to assassinate Dong Zhuo. On May 22nd 192 AD Lu Bu and a party of his trusted officers stabbed Dong Zhuo to death at the palace gate. *of Dynasty Warriors fame In the immediate aftermath Dong Zhuo's clan within Chang'an was executed and Dong Zhuo's body was exposed in the city's main avenue. However, Chang'an was still surrounded by forces from Liang province and four of Dong Zhuo's highest generals escaped the city walls and laid Chang'an under siege. Lu Bu attempted to break the siege but was defeated and fled east to pop up in Cao Cao and Liu Bei's stories. Dong Zhuo was dead but the Imperial court was still held captive by the army of Liang Province and still wholeheartedly ignored by the rest of China. Getting back to the coalition: The capital was on fire and the Emperor's fate was unknown. Cao Cao's army had been defeated, and Sun Jian was on campaign with a detachment of Yuan Shu's army to retake the Luoyang area. In the meantime, the coalition had to decide what to do with the Han state, currently headless and more or less on fire. Yuan Shao, nominally leader of the coalition, decided to crown Liu Yu, Inspector of You Province (a title equivalent to governor) the new Emperor. As Grand Administrator of Bohai, a large area within You Province, it was clear Yuan Shao would be in a position to exert great influence on Liu Yu should he become emperor. Liu Yu refused and perhaps more importantly Yuan Shu and Cao Cao disagreed with the decision. Yuan Shu was dissatisfied with his brother's leadership of the coalition when he was of more or less equal rank to Yuan Shu, and besides Yuan Shu comes across as a self-important dick. Yuan Shu personally insulted Yuan Shao and left the Luoyang area for his base in the Huai River area. The coalition drifted apart, with generals and governors taking their armies back to their respective homes with no political settlement. Han Fu, Governor of Ji Province, had been supplying the coalition armies for the last year and was perhaps understandably growing resentful of all these armies sitting around not doing anything eating his food. A resentful vassal of Han Fu defected to Yuan Shao and alerted him to this attitude. Yuan Shao came up with a devious plan: he secretly formed an alliance with Gongsun Zan, a cavalry general from the northern frontier, to take Ji Province from Han Fu. When Han Fu became aware of Gongsun Zan's intentions, he threw himself on the protection of Yuan Shao and even handed over governorship of Ji Province. Yuan Shao's gained a permanent base in central China (his Bohai Commandery was far to the east and not rich) and Gongsun Zan looked like the aggressor. With Sun Jian still campaigning against Dong Zhuo on behalf on Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu negotiated alliance blocs against each other and began handing out titles without consulting each other, effectively forming two opposed alliances with two views of what the Han government should look like. Yuan Shao allied with Cao Cao, while Yuan Shu formed an alliance encircling them with Tao Qian to the east and Gongsun Zan to the northwest. Sun Jian's army was returning from its victorious reconquest of the Luoyang area from Dong Zhuo (now based far to the west in Chang'an) to reunite with Yuan Shu when Yuan Shao sent an army to intercept him. This was the first major clash of the civil wars. Sun Jian was taken by surprise but repelled the attack in a series of battles. Gongsun Zan had lent Sun Jian a detachment of cavalry under Gongsun Yue, his cousin, and Gongsun Yue was killed in the battles. Gongsun Zan then declared war on Yuan Shao and attacked from the northwest, kicking off the civil wars with its first serious campaign of conquest. Now I'm going to break the civil war into three parts to make it more understandable. First, I'll start with Northern China focusing on Cao Cao since he will, spoilers, eventually defeat Yuan Shao and gain supremacy over everyone in that theater up until Red Cliffs. Then I'll follow Sun Jian, Sun Ce and Sun Quan as they successively conquer the south and get killed (but not Sun Quan) and then desert Yuan Shu, eventually through to Red Cliffs also. Finally, I'll follow Liu Bei's winding path through Cao Cao's story and go into more detail on the complete mess on Cao Cao's southern flank, through Red Cliffs and beyond to his sneaky conquest of Yi Province. Here is the situation around 191:  Cao Cao went home to Yan Province and his capital of Xuchang upon the dissolution of the coalition and remained loosely allied with Yuan Shao. With his northern border secure on Yuan Shao's territory, and the reactive Tao Qian to the south, Cao Cao was free to concentrate on pacifying and organizing his territory. From 191-194 Cao Cao campaigned to put down rebels and re-establish order in his province. The previous years of civil war had thoroughly disrupted the agricultural economy and most state institutions, and Cao Cao either restored them or applied new systems for the new times. For example, the Yellow Turban Rebellion had left much agricultural land to return to waste and transportation was plagued by bandits. Cao Cao implemented a collective farming system, settling refugees on land arrayed around military garrisons, which would pacify the local area and contribute to the farm work in its off time. Upon discovering that the imperial examinations had ceased and most education with it, he appointed education officials to re-establish education and official examinations in every county under his control. For this reason Cao Cao's relatively small territory was far more productive than the other warlords'. In 193 Cao Song, Cao Cao's father, was murdered while traveling through Xu Province and Cao Cao ordered a massacre of peasants in retaliation and attacked Tao Qian. The extent to which his father's death was the real reason for his territorial expansion into Xu is up to the reader. Starting from 193, Cao Cao began a campaign to conquer Xu Province, his neighbor to the south, under the control of Tao Qian. The campaign was long and full of reversals, as we'll get into with Liu Bei's story. Xu Province would change hands several times between 193 and 199, at various times being almost totally under Cao Cao's control, reinforced by Yuan Shu, or in total rebellion. The front in Xu will finally be resolved after Yuan Shu's death and Cao Cao's final victory over Yuan Shao in the 200s, more because the successive governors of Xu have no one left to switch sides to than because it remained militarily contested. The most major upheaval in Cao Cao's campaigns, however, was the Emperor Xian falling into his lap in 196. Emperor Xian, now 14 years old, was a pawn in Dong Zhuo's feuding successors in Chang'an. He was kidnapped at least once even within Chang'an, already at the mercy of his keepers. In 195 two of Dong Zhuo's successor generals allowed him to leave with his court but almost immediately regretted the decision and chased him east. Not knowing what to do, having been held incommunicado for five years and fleeing in desperation, the Emperor's party returned to Luoyang to find it in ruins. Pathetically, they remained at the capital for some months until they were literally starving. Although the emperor was within Yuan Shao's territory, he decided against welcoming Xian to his court. After all he had tried to elevate another Liu in his place and was now the most likely candidate to win the war and become the new emperor. So instead, Cao Cao marched an army to Luoyang and invited the desperate boy emperor to return to Xuchang under his protection. Naturally the emperor assented and set up his court in Xuchang. This windfall would both set up Cao Cao with the emperor's moral authority and sow the seeds of dissent between him and his senior ally Yuan Shao. Through 196-199, Cao Cao's control of the Emperor became more assertive and his conflict with Yuan Shao become more overt. He issued edicts in Xian's name, in one condemning Yuan Shao's vast territorial ambitions. As if the capital being held by his nominal junior partner was not galling enough, Yuan Shao was further antagonized when Cao Cao had himself created Grand Commandant, one of the three top-level cabinet posts, while offering Yuan Shao Minister of Works, a regular cabinet post. By 199 Yuan Shao had defeated Gongsun Zan and held all four northern provinces, and Cao Cao, realizing his blunder, offered to trade posts with Yuan Shao but the insult could not be undone. Meanwhile, in 199 a conspiracy within the court at Xuchang to assassinate Cao Cao prompted him to crack down on the Emperor's court and alienate Xian by executing one of the emperor's pregnant concubines. In 200, Yuan Shao finally turned on Cao Cao although as we've seen they had had irreconcilable differences ever since 196. He marshaled his armies, swollen by Gongsun Zan's submitted troops, and determined to cross the Yellow River south into Yan province at the fords near the city of Guandu. These fords were actually a series of three fords where the Yellow, Puyang, and Bian Rivers converged. Cao Cao had however anticipated this move and in 199 constructed a series of forts guarding the fords, and fortified the city of Guandu. Not to get hung up on one battle, I'll try to keep this brief. Yuan Shao brought about 100,000 soldiers to Guandu, and Cao Cao brought 30-40,000. Over the space of a few weeks Yuan Shao successfully forced the fords, but was held up by an organized fighting retreat that managed to ambush his vanguard along the approach to Guandu itself. Yuan invested Guandu for a siege, and within another week or two both sides were in danger of running out of food and supplies. Yuan's army was replenished by a supply train left in the town of Wuchao near the fords, about 12 miles from Guandu. Yuan Shao critically failed to guard Wuchao as strongly as he should have. Cao Cao was made aware of this by a defector. Cao Cao personally lead a night raid on Wuchao with about 5,000 men, disguised as allied reinforcements. They took the undersized garrison by surprised and burned the supply depots. Yuan Shao threw his reserves into a last-ditch effort to storm Guandu rather than reinforce Wuchao, and failed. Cao Cao is supposed to have taken ears and noses from the dead soldiers, and the next day displayed them on the walls of Guandu mixed with cow and pig bits to exaggerate the scale of his victory. Yuan Shao's army, seriously demoralized and low on food, could not continue the siege. Individual generals began to withdraw or defect to Cao Cao, and Yuan Shao found his army melting around him. With good intelligence from the many defectors, Cao Cao and his generals realized the time was perfect for a sally, and Cao Cao shattered Yuan Shao's wavering forces. Yuan himself escaped over the Yellow River with his cavalry corps but his army of 100,000 scattered, defected, or deserted. Over the course of 200 and 201 Cao Cao lead his army from victory to victory in Yuan Shao's territory, mopping up armies and obtaining the submission of local rulers. From 202, when Yuan Shao died of old age, to 208 Cao Cao drove all before him, his army swelling with each victory and his administrators incorporating conquered rulers and their territories into his state bureaucracy. Indeed his victories after 202 had a character of inevitability. Cao Cao often didn't have to fight and marched from bloodless submission to bloodless submission. In his wake a sense of normalcy was restored to the country as the imperial examinations resumed and wasteland was returned to cultivation. By 208, Cao Cao had united China north of the Yangtze and Qin Mountains. His state, still nominally the Han Empire, was by far the largest of the civil war, but also the most organized and productive on the local level. His army had swelled to 400,000 men. With north China secured, he marched into the divided Jing Province in 208 no doubt hoping for yet another easy victory and seeing the restoration of the Han on the horizon. Meanwhile, in the south: In 189, Sun Jian under Yuan Shu had been the most successful general of the coalition in the fight against Dong Zuo. Although he and Cao Cao had failed to catch Dong Zhuo on his flight west, in 190 Sun Jian brought the Luoyang area back under coalition control in a campaign that saw him victorious in a series of major battles. Yuan Shu, fearing the accomplished general's prowess and what might happen should he install himself in Luoyang, interfered with Sun Jian's supply train but relented when Sun Jian complained. This will become a pattern with Yuan Shu, who comes off as a lazy and suspicious jerk with a very high opinion of himself. Sun Jian handed Yuan Shu his first victory in his fight with his brother Yuan Shao in 190 on his way back to the Huai River, fresh from beating Dong Zhuo's army. In 191, Yuan Shu dispatched Sun Jian to campaign against Liu Biao, the governor of Jing Province, who hasn't figured in this story so far. Liu Biao was a distant relative of Liu Bei and more or less content to remain in Jing Province rather than attack other governors. Jing Province lies along the Yangtze River in modern Hunan and Hubei, and it's quite rugged country. Sun Jian was successful initially but was killed in an ambush shortly after the opening of the campaign, terminating the whole endeavor early. Sun Ce was Sun Jian's eldest son, and in 194 he presented himself to Yuan Shu who assigned him Sun Jian's army. Sun Ce embarked on a few small pacification campaigns for Yuan Shu and was successful but the rewards that Yuan Shu offered were somehow never forthcoming. Yuan Shu was aware that Sun Ce was dissatisfied in his service but impressed by his abilities, so he contrived to give him an impossible assignment rather than see him defect. He gave Sun Ce between 1000 and 2000 men and sent him to pacify a number of rebellious lords and administrators in the southern Yangtze Delta, with no plans to support the young general. Sun Ce had several enemies who were more powerful than him, and when he arrived they made common cause against him. There are really too many details to go into here, but the gist of the story is that Sun Ce was repeatedly able to rally much larger forces of volunteers than anyone expected and able to deliver crushing defeats to enemies who expected to defeat him easily. He isolated opponents who were trying to combine against him, struck from unexpected directions and seemed to always show up with more soldiers than anyone supposed he commanded. Soon local administrators and subordinate generals were defecting to Sun Ce personally and improbable numbers of volunteers were flocking to his banner. Between 195 and 198 Sun Ce went from a minor general operating with a small army with no support from home to a major regional power. By 198 the entire lower Yangtze Delta pledged allegiance to Sun Ce personally, on the strength of his charisma and gifted generalship, and not particularly to Yuan Shu. Although Yuan Shu had basically achieved nothing in seven years of warfare, he declared himself emperor in 197. This act of political suicide accomplished nothing accept alienating all of his allies and vassals, who deserted him en masse. Sun Ce renounced his allegiance to Yuan Shu at this time. Yuan Shu, bereft of allies, suffered a series of defeats at the hands of Cao Cao's generals and fled far to the south, where he sent messengers to Yuan Shao seeking reconciliation. However he died before anything could be decided, more or less irrelevant without his territory or followers anyway. In the aftermath of Yuan Shu's abrupt collapse, Sun Ce absorbed those of his followers who were willing and crushed those who were not with derisive ease. By 199 Sun Ce controlled the Yangtze from the delta to the border with Liu Biao in Jing Province, roughly the northern border of the nascent Kingdom of Wu. Recognizing Sun Ce's power and wanting to secure his southern flank for his war with Yuan Shao, Cao Cao reached out with an offer of marriage and a generous grant of titles from the imperial court, and Sun Ce accepted. He was officially the Marquis of Wu and a high general of the Han court in addition to the personal loyalty he commanded in the Yangtze Delta. However in 200 Sun Ce was abruptly assassinated by the retainers of an official he had killed, ambushed with crossbows in the woods. Sun Ce was succeeded by his 18-year-old brother Sun Quan, who was able to keep his position mostly through choosing good advisers who, again, it's too much trouble to get into. From 200-208 Sun Quan solidified his rule over Sun Ce's conquered territories and against generals who might have wanted to defect from such a young leader. He also began preparing for a campaign against Liu Biao's Jing Province, particularly as Huang Zu, Administrator of Jiangxia Commandery in Jing Province, had killed Sun Jian in that ambush in 191. 208 saw Sun Quan beginning to advance into eastern Jing Province, when Cao Cao's arrival in the area and Liu Biao's death upended the situation entirely. UGH. I'll get to Liu Bei's Adventures in Treachery some other time. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jan 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 10:54
|
|
|
Libluini posted:I know, and I'm sorry. I've found my notes and yes, I completely misremembered. Nobody of my Germanistik friends and anyone that I knew who studied it wants to have anything to do with this poo poo ever again. It's one of the most hated and feared obstacles in becoming a Magister. I'm not surprised that nobody translates this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 12:48
|
|
|
Frostwerks posted:That doesn't look like it'd hold all the water for the boat battles. As far as we know, naumachia were never held in the Colosseum. They were held at least once in the arena of Capua, which is an exact copy of it and has plumbing to be flooded/drained. I'm not a fan of the floor restoration idea, if you want to walk around inside the arena you can do that in Capua. But I guess I see the appeal for tourism. It might help preserve the understructure by blocking rain, at least.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 13:11
|
|
|
JaucheCharly posted:Nobody of my Germanistik friends and anyone that I knew who studied it wants to have anything to do with this poo poo ever again. It's one of the most hated and feared obstacles in becoming a Magister. I'm not surprised that nobody translates this poo poo. Huh. I found it interesting. Then again, we only had one semester dealing with this, since I'm studying to get my Bachelor of Engineering, instead of going for Magister.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 14:22
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:As far as we know, naumachia were never held in the Colosseum. They were held at least once in the arena of Capua, which is an exact copy of it and has plumbing to be flooded/drained. Are restoration projects required to meet modern building codes in Italy? I live in New England, where such things are just a given, which makes things interesting when local Historical Societies also have authority to dictate things. "Those windows must look like the originals from 1850 in every way, but also must meet environmental standards."
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 14:52
|
|
|
JaucheCharly posted:Nobody of my Germanistik friends and anyone that I knew who studied it wants to have anything to do with this poo poo ever again. It's one of the most hated and feared obstacles in becoming a Magister. I'm not surprised that nobody translates this poo poo. I think it's interesting. I decided to learn Norwegian recently, and while marveling at the fact that it has YET ANOTHER name for Germany, discovered that the Scandinavian tysk (as in tysk for "German" and Tyskland for "Germany") is cognate with Deutsch, from the aforementioned *ţiudiskaz.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 15:08
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Civil War: 190-208 AD Thanks again for doing these, I now somewhat understand what was going on in Dynasty Warriors now!
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 17:43
|
|
|
Libluini posted:You asked me and I answered. Also google translate is a thing. If you still want to know more about what I've been reading about the history of the German language, I can try to dig out my own sources somewhere in my old folders and try to find some books, hopefully even with English translations available. Friend, you can't prove something like that. You can't assume we all read German and when somebody points it out, you can't say 'that's your problem.' You're trying to prove something to us, so it is incumbent upon you to make your point understandable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
Testikles posted:Friend, you can't prove something like that. You can't assume we all read German and when somebody points it out, you can't say 'that's your problem.' You're trying to prove something to us, so it is incumbent upon you to make your point understandable. There wasn't anything to explain nor to prove, I was literally asked "Where did you read this, I never heard of it." Now this question is answered. What, did you expect me to translate entire books or something?
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 20:45
|
|
|
No, but a polite, "Here's the original if you're interested. It roughly translates to such-and-such," would be nice. When in Rome, speak Latin. When in Greece, Greek. When debating history or philology or internet spaceships on SA, English.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:No, but a polite, "Here's the original if you're interested. It roughly translates to such-and-such," would be nice. When in Rome, speak Latin. When in Greece, Greek. When debating history or philology or internet spaceships on SA, English. The problem is, the text excerpt I have could come from any of these books (most likely not the ones from the 70s, though), it just misses the page where it tells me from what book it came. It's part of a multi-page paper using text excerpts from all sources I mentioned. But you're right, I shouldn't dither just because I'm embarrassed I can't pinpoint the exact source, I'll try to translate the important part from the paper. (At least I didn't throw it away, like I first assumed. )
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Civil War: 190-208 AD Wow, that was a huge chunk of information to take in all at once. Good thing I already knew most of the names from video games. Thanks for this and also thanks for the book recommendations earlier in the thread. I especially liked the book composed of translated excerpts from the periods in question.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:06
|
|
|
Maybe that post should have been shorter. I was trying to power through because I haven't even arrived at the Three Kingdoms period!  I could definitely split them up more, it would be easier on me as well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
Libluini posted:The problem is, the text excerpt I have could come from any of these books (most likely not the ones from the 70s, though), it just misses the page where it tells me from what book it came. It's part of a multi-page paper using text excerpts from all sources I mentioned. But you're right, I shouldn't dither just because I'm embarrassed I can't pinpoint the exact source, I'll try to translate the important part from the paper. It's a comedy forum. Nobody expects perfect MLA or Chicago or whatever citation. They just expect a language that more than 3% of SA can read. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:It's a comedy forum. Nobody expects perfect MLA or Chicago or whatever citation. They just expect a language that more than 3% of SA can read. Come on, reading German ain't a problem, even I can do that. Understanding even a single word of it might be more of an issue, though...
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:46
|
|
|
Ithle01 posted:Good thing I already knew most of the names from video games. Oh, and I guess there's Liu Dai and Liu Yu too. Are all the Lius from one family, or did they just happen to share their surname? Is it even the same name when not transliterated? my dad posted:Come on, reading German ain't a problem, even I can do that. Understanding even a single word of it might be more of an issue, though... Go back a hundred years and try to read the German typefaces they were using then. loving sadists came up with that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
Sleep of Bronze posted:I'm just annoyed that I'm going to have to keep track of people called Liu Biao, Liu Bei and Lu Bu as this goes on. I'm not sure on how Chinese surnames spread, but Liu is definitely one of the most common ones you'll find, back then and today. It was the Han imperial family's name too! Some important people are all apart of the same clan (Almost all the Caos are a part of Cao Cao's clique), but there are maybe 20 notable Zhangs spread out over all of China that don't have any relations with each other. People often used identical surnames as a reason to be buddy-buddy with each other, but it didn't carry much water. For the matter, Liu Bei is the only one to remember because his life is an absurd mercenary fantasy that gets romanticized by popular Chinese culture. Arglebargle III posted:Maybe that post should have been shorter. I was trying to power through because I haven't even arrived at the Three Kingdoms period! I really enjoy the China posts whenever they come so don't sweat it. Summarizing the three kingdoms is going to be difficult no matter how many words you put into it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 23:26
|
|
|
Doesn't China have some myth about how surnames were invented by a ancient god-king or something along those lines?
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 07:17
|
|
|
Woah, if Qin Shihuang was the most metal guy in Chinese history with the black flags and black armor and burying people alive and melting his enemies' swords into statues, Cao Cao won the Battle of White Wolf Mountain. I'll have to keep on the look-out for more evidence of the most wolf-shirted guy in Chinese history.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 13:39
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Qiao Miao, administrator of Dong Commandery
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 14:03
|
|
|
It looks like I might be crossposting with this other thread for a while, because I think I have found some people know know more about this period than I do.Arglebargle III posted:Actually I'm not sure about the relationship between Sun Jian and Yuan Shu either. I know Sun Jian was allied with Yuan Shu or under him in some way, that Yuan Shu was in charge of his supply train, and that Yuan Shao identified him as part of Yuan Shu's alliance enough to attack him before he could recombine with Yuan Shu in Huainan. I resisted the temptation to compare Sun Jian to a 2-county Count with great stats in that thread but I'll do it here!
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 15:27
|
|
|
Are you going to continue on to the War of Eight Princes (which I know absolutely nothing about) or just stop at the end of the Three Kingdoms? Either way, love the write up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 17:06
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:It's a comedy forum. Nobody expects perfect MLA or Chicago or whatever citation. They just expect a language that more than 3% of SA can read. my dad posted:Come on, reading German ain't a problem, even I can do that. Understanding even a single word of it might be more of an issue, though... Ok, then let's try this again. To go back to my first post over this matter, I claimed English developed mostly parallel with German, and that German as a language started out as a artificial creole taken from many different Germanic dialects/languages with an extra helping of Latin thrown in. Now why did I claim this? Here's my source, a text excerpt we had to work with years ago in a seminary called Professional German I. From the text excerpt I used: Die geschichtliche Herleitung des Wortes deutsch ist von den Sprachwissenschaftlern in den letzten einhundertfünfzig Jahren ausreichend belegt. Die Wurzel ist ein altes indoeuropäisches Wort, das in etwa zum Stamm/Volk gehörig bedeutet. In den germanischen Sprachen existierten Formen wie thiuda, theod oder thiod. Mit der Zeit hat sich das Wort verändert, später wurde daraus diutisk, dann diutsch und schließlich deutsch. Die Urformen dieses Wortes bezogen sich auf die einfache Prägung des Fränkischen, Friesischen, Gotischen, eben ihrer Sprachen, die trotz aller Ähnlichkeit auch sehr unterschiedlich waren. Diese Germanen hatten nicht die Vorstellung, einer Nation anzugehören. Sie waren Sachsen, Alemannen oder Angehörige eines anderen germanischen Volkes und konnten sich mit etwas Mühe sicher auch über die Stammesgrenzen hinaus verständigen. Sie lebten in kleinen Gruppen, die über die Jahrhunderte zu größeren Verbänden zusammenwuchsen. Dabei änderten sie die Stammesbezeichnungen, sie integrierten bei ihren Eroberungen anderssprachige Völker und entwickelten für ihre Zwecke ausreichende Sprachgemeinschaften. Das Germanische gab es nicht. Das änderte sich auch nicht unter Karl dem Großen. Aus dieser Zeit, dem 8. Jahrhundert, sind die ersten Dokumente überliefert, die wir heute althochdeutsch nennen. Diese Urform des Deutschen war zuerst eine Art Kommando- und Verwaltungssprache für das fränkische Heer. Man benötigte ein Instrument, das dazu geeignet war, sich unter den verschiedenen Stämmen, die in diesem Heer vereint waren, zu verständigen. Dazu reichte eine Art Interlingua zwischen den germanischen Völkern, die in den fränkischen Verbund integriert waren. Das Reich Karls war zweisprachig, einige beherrschten das Leteinische, andere benutzten theodisce, die Sprache des Volkes. Ganz bewusst hatte man nicht von Germanisch gesprochen, denn eine solche Sprache und ein Bewusstsein dieser Gemeinsamkeit gab es nicht. Halten wir fest: Thiuda oder theodiscus -die lateinische Form- benutzte man zunächst, um von außen die Sprache des Volkes zu bezeichnen. Es ist nicht der Name, den sich die späteren Deutschen selber geben. Sie bleiben nach wie vor Franken oder Friesen. Noch heute benennen die Italiener uns mit einem Wort, das aus der gleichen Quelle stammt: i tedeschi Erst verhältnismäßig spät, zwischen 1000 und 1200, greift man diese Außenbezeichnung auf und beginnt sie auch selbst als eine Abgrenzung zu verwenden. Sie dient vor allem dazu, die Trennlinien im Westen und im Osten sprachlich zu markieren. Man könnte ironisch sagen, zu Deutschen wurden diejenigen, die östlich der Franzosen und ihrer romanisierten Sprache der Franken -lingua francorum- sowie westlich der slawischen Völker lebten. Etwa von der Mitte des 14. bis zu der des 17. Jahrhunderts bildet sich ein Sprachstandard heraus, den die Germanisten später Frühneuhochdeutsch nennen. Es ist vor allem die geschriebene Sprache. Sie ist ein Kompromiss zwischen dem Oberdeutschen -bairisch, fränkisch, alemannisch-, dem Westmitteldeutschen -rheinfränkisch- und dem Ostmitteldeutschen -thüringisch, sächsisch. Man brauchte eine Lösung, damit der Kaufmann in Trier mit dem aus Leipzig einen Vertrag abschließen konnte, den beide gleichermaßen verstanden. Durch die Bibelübersetzung Luthers gewinnt das Ostmitteldeutsche ein besonderes Gewicht bei der Herausbildung einer deutschen Schriftsprache. Die Namensgebung der Deutschen, ihre ethnische Taufe, erstreckte sich über wenigstens dreihundert Jahre, vom späten 8. bis zum 12. Jahrhundert. Freudig angenommen wurde sie von ihnen nicht, eher zurückhaltend, etwas verwirrt, manchmal geradezu widerwillig. Ihr Deutschtum berührte nicht den Kern ihres kollektiven Selbst; es streifte die Fremdheit des von außen Aufgedrängtseins nicht völlig ab und ließ die Deutschen fortgesetzt sich selbst immer ein wenig fremd gegenübertreten. Ein einig Volk waren sie zuallerletzt; sie blieben in erster Linie Baiern, Sachsen, Kölner und dergleichen. Nur in der Fremde hießen sie und nannten sie sich "Deutsche". Here's my attempt at a translation, beware!: The historical derivation of the word deutsch was adequately proven by linguists during the last 150 years. The root is an old Indoeuropean word which rougly means belonging to the tribe/people. In Germanic languages forms like thiuda, theod or thiod existed. Gradually the word changed and turned later into diutisk, then into diutsch and finally deutsch. The earliest forms of this word refered to the simple shape of the Franconian, the Frisian, the Gothic. Those very languages which all shared similarities were still very different. Those Germanics didn't have the conception of being part of a nation. They were Saxon, Alemanni or members of other Germanic peoples and could (hopefully)communicate even across tribal borders. They lived in small groups, which over centuries grew into larger associations. In doing so they changed the tribal denominations, they integrated foreign peoples with their conquests and developed sufficient speech communities for their own purposes. The Germanic didn't exist. This didn't change, even under Charlemagne. From this time, the 8th century, date the first documents of what we call Old High German today. This prototype of German was at first a command and administrative language for the Franconian host. An instrument was needed which could be used to communicate between the different tribes united in this host. For this, it was enough to have some kind of creole between the Germanic peoples integrated into the Frankonian bond. The realm of Charlemagne was bi-lingual, some spoke Latin, others used "theodisce", the language of the people. With deliberation it was never called Germanic, because a language like this and an awareness of this common ground didn't exist. Let us keep score for the moment: Thiuda or theodiscus -the Latin form- was used to denominate the language of the people from the outside. It isn't the name the later Germans gave themselves. Those still are Franconians or Frisians. Even today the Italians call us with a word which came from the same source: i tedeschi Only comparatively late, between 1000 and 1200, was this foreign denomination picked up and was started to be used as a means of differentiation. It was used primarily to mark the dividing lines between west and east linguistically. You could say ironically the Germans became those living east of the French (and their Romaniced language of the Franconians -lingua francorum-) and west of the Slavs. Approximately from the middle of the 14th up to the middle of the 17th century was a standard language slowly growing. This standard language was called Early New High German by specialists in German studies. It is mostly a written language. It is mostly a compromise between High German* -Bavarian, Franconian, Alemannian-, the West Middle German -Rhenish Franconian- and the East Middle German -Thuringian, Saxonian. A solution was needed to allow a merchant from the city of Treves to negotiate a contract with a merchant from Leipzig, while being comprehensible for both. Thanks to the bible-translation of Luther the East Middle German gets a particular weight in the development of written German. The naming of the Germans, their ethnic baptism, stretched across at least 300 years. From the late 8th to the 12 century. Glady accepted it wasn't. If anything, they took to it reluctantly, a bit bemused, sometimes even unwillingly. Their German identity didn't touch the core of their collective self. It never completely lost the strangeness of being imposed from the outside. It let the Germans continually be a bit foreign to themselves. A united people they were last of all. They remained primarily Bavarians, Saxons, Colognians and the like. Only abroad they were and were called "Germans**". *The word used here in the source text "Oberdeutsch", refers to the languages of the southern Germans. But as I learned in university, the "High" in High German also refers to the southern (and often mountaineous) German lands. So since I couldn't find a direct translation and "upper German" sounded wrong, I went with this choice instead. **I think this would make more sense if you replace every instance of "German" with "Deutsch", but well, this would be confusing for everyone not accustomed to German, so I had to make the bad choice of destroying a nice pun. Sources posted:Geschichte der deutschen Sprache (History of the German language), by Peter von Polenz and Norbert Richard Wolf, 2008 Libluini fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
ah man, you missed translating the funniest paragraph:quote:Man könnte ironisch sagen, zu Deutschen wurden diejenigen, die östlich der Franzosen und ihrer romanisierten Sprache der Franken -lingua francorum- sowie westlich der slawischen Völker lebten. "One could ironically say that those who lived east of the French and their romanized language of the Franks - lingua francorum - and west of the Slavic peoples became the Germans." Reading my translation it's a lot funnier in the German, but still probably worth a chuckle if you reflect (as the author clearly is) on the relatively recent history of those three groups. Edit: God, that gives me a great idea for a title on general German history. The German Problem: What the gently caress do we do with this space between the Rhine and the Vistula? edit x2: Hah, alternate title: Germany: Europe's taint it works on two levels 
Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 00:49
|
|
|
Sorry man, I just got tired translating all of this, I'll try to replace the forgotten part. Edit: Done, looks like I skipped from one paragraph to the next. Corrected. Libluini fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 00:54
|
|
|
Why did you bother translating the German again? Haha we can all read it ourselves.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 02:39
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Qiao Miao, administrator of Dong Commandery Arglebargle III posted:Yuan Shu, General of the Rear (後將軍)[4] The gooniest empire. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 07:07
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:ah man, you missed translating the funniest paragraph: I don't get your titles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 12:58
|
|
|
JaucheCharly posted:I don't get your titles. The first is playing with the idea raised in that bit of translated text that by identifying what early German is through a process of elimination you're effectively using it as a catch-all for a pretty diverse grouping. This seemed, to me at least (and I suspect to the author of that text) to parallel the problem of German nationalism that existed in the first half of the 19th century, namely how the gently caress to define what "German" was when there were so many competing definitions. the gross- vs. kleindeutsche positions at the Frankfurt Parliament are the most famous expression of this, but far from the only ones. The second one is an English pun. "Taint" has two meanings in English: that odd bit of skin between the genitals and anus that exists mostly as an anatomical no-man's land for most people and an impurity or unclean element in something. So, again, a play on that notion of geographic and cultural uncertainty about exactly what section of Middle Europe actually is Germany, along with a jab at Germany's more notorious 20th century historical legacies. I still think it's funny, but admittedly I have the sense of humor of a 12 year old and have been working 16 hour days.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 13:26 |
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:As far as we know, naumachia were never held in the Colosseum. They were held at least once in the arena of Capua, which is an exact copy of it and has plumbing to be flooded/drained. Given the random poo poo the Colosseum has been used for over the years I say go nuts. Slim Jim Pickens posted:I'm not sure on how Chinese surnames spread, but Liu is definitely one of the most common ones you'll find, back then and today. It was the Han imperial family's name too! Some important people are all apart of the same clan (Almost all the Caos are a part of Cao Cao's clique), but there are maybe 20 notable Zhangs spread out over all of China that don't have any relations with each other. The weirdest random historical fact about China is how hardcore every dynasty has been about keeping track of Confucius male line descendants for 83 generations now. It may be the craziest thing done in any country in the world.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:00
|
|
