|
Cingulate posted:Dawn is clearly not as bad as the Terminus leader, or the Governor. Dawn runs a literal police state where non-cops are slaves. She pays her guards with rape. Doing it all through euphemisms and civility makes it more insidious - its evil can be rationalized as serving some greater purpose. Terminus was at least self-aware. Everyone in Woodbury was invited to the Governor's lemonade parties, not just his inner circle.
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 21:21 |
|
|
moths posted:Dawn runs a literal police state where non-cops are slaves. She pays her guards with rape. Doing it all through euphemisms and civility makes it more insidious - its evil can be rationalized as serving some greater purpose. gently caress, well now I feel pretty wrong and kinda miss the Governor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 18:50
|
|
|
Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:They made it pretty clear that the rape was approved on an institutional scale, when suicide girl referred to "them" when she said that Dawn could control them but chose not too. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:But my bad, you're right that the baseline for when it's ok to kill in self-defense has been set at "are my captors worse than literal cannibals?" Beth is truly the real monster here. I also complained about Carol flooding Terminus with zombies, so clearly my baseline is even higher than that!
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 18:53
|
|
|
I didn't realize until afterward that the enforced clothing isn't about occupation, its about class. The upper-class wear cop uniforms, the lower-class wear scrubs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 18:56
|
|
|
Good point, I guess I didn't pay enough attention. Although we didn't really see enough people to really give a class society picture. We saw more cops than scrubbers!
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 18:58
|
|
|
The show will transform into a procedural, where each episode has the gang find a group of crazies and kill them while stumbling towards a vague goal.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 18:58
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:I didn't make that connection. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, the episode wasn't especially exciting. If it's truly institutional, it's a different scenario. There was also a line about how "the wards" role was to keep her men happy, which implies that she's ruining a rape-based economy. E: I really like how stuff isn't spelled out through exposition anymore. This was a really tight episode with some layers to dig through, but I think most people saw it was Beth, stopped paying attention, and then decided it sucked. moths fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
Lycus posted:I didn't realize until afterward that the enforced clothing isn't about occupation, its about class. The upper-class wear cop uniforms, the lower-class wear scrubs. Also you can definitely leave right after *some vague future date*
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
mewse posted:Also you can definitely leave right after *some vague future date* After you've paid your debt, of which there is no bill / invoice and it is a made up number in my head
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:02
|
|
|
moths posted:There was also a line about how "the wards" role was to keep her men happy, which implies that she's ruining a rape-based economy Competing with Pol Pot's rival skull-based economy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:04
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:Beth killing Rape Cop is one thing; Beth letting zombies loose in a hospital full of people chained to their beds etc. is not self defense. It's not like that was her plan from the beginning. Rapey McBadcop interrupted her escape attempt otherwise no one would have been harmed. She acted in self-defense by letting him get bit, suicide zombie girl said "send more cops" so she did that, then skedaddled through the basement exit that was already infested with walkers but sealed off from the rest of the hospital. The chances that all of Dawn's crew would be overwhelmed by two walkers (which is what it would have taken before one of the wards was put in danger since Beth tipped the guards off to the threat) was pretty slim. moths posted:There was also a line about how "the wards" role was to keep her men happy, which implies that she's ruining a rape-based economy. Eh I agree that it was a solid episode, but it's been this thread's M.O. to not pay attention to the episode in lieu of live-posting and then complain about stuff they missed for a while now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:18
|
|
|
Yeah, Beth sending some armed cops to the office instead of letting the zombies surprise people was actually being helpful.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:25
|
|
|
I know it wasn't her plan to kill everyone (just as she didn't know she'd run into more cops). But she loose two zombies in the building and let others deal with the consequences. Remember what happened in the Prison when only one small sickly boy resurrected; they were also a bunch of warriors taking care of civilians, and they weren't overrun, but people died. She could at least have stayed to kill the first two; wouldn't have been a problem. She didn't because she needed a distraction. It didn't became as much of a distraction as she would have needed precisely because it was quickly contained. It easily could have cost a lot more lives. But either way, what I originally asked was, when did the Greater Good became the obvious tell for bad people? Because I don't think the Rape-based Economy had been revealed when that phrased was first uttered, but one immediately understands it means Dawn is evil and we'll all cheer once she is inevitably eaten by either zombies, or Rick. And as has been pointed out, I should have known better, because the answer is: in The Open Society And Its Enemies. e: moths posted:E: I really like how stuff isn't spelled out through exposition anymore. This was a really tight episode with some layers to dig through, but I think most people saw it was Beth, stopped paying attention, and then decided it sucked. I think the episode simply wasn't that good. I didn't even catch on to the subtle cues for how Dawn et al. were bad, but her justification speeches were just bad. I didn't find any of the characters convincing but for Noah, and that was not due to his overly tight writing, but all the actor. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 19:48
|
|
|
Forced labor hospital is totally layered and nuanced.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 20:01
|
|
|
a cop posted:Forced labor hospital is totally layered and nuanced. The cowardly doc layer was kinda interesting as a contrast to the preachers downright negligence in letting a pile of people die by not moving to a loving door. This dude used Beth as a proxy killer to snuff out a rival that endangered his place in rape society 
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
My worry now is that we have the group split into three factions (it would seem) and those sort of episodes aren't always among the best. But I'm hopeful - they didn't drag out Terminus and it looks like the hospital is going places. Are previews spoilers still? If so... It looks like they are focusing on the group headed to DC which means they are pulling focus from everyone else. So, no movement on the other two fronts which is a bummer.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
imperialparadox posted:I kind of want to have an episode where the opposite happens: Its called "All of season 2" and it sucked
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 20:35
|
|
|
Not mine, scene from next episode: This better happen...
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:06
|
|
|
zVxTeflon posted:Its called "All of season 2" and it sucked You know that's a good point, all the Greenes were guilty of was keeping walkers in a barn in a misguided effort to keep them safe until a cure came along, and a hunting accident. Then Rick's crew rolls in and the entire family either dies or is assimilated. Gabriel may have been on to something when he told our protagonists "God sent you here to punish me." They're like the Horsemen of the (zombie) Apocalypse. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:This is clearly me, but I don't mind Beth. I think Dawn's speech was basically where the episode clicks. The "greater good" speech was bullshit, and her performance conveyed that at some level she realized it. But she needs that, because the alternative is to acknowledge that she's running a glorified rape gang of slavers. (Terminus was refreshingly honest with its depravity, by contrast.) The hospital's theme was the polite fictions that accompany unjust power structures, with a side of lies that allow them to flourish. You can leave (as soon as we're square.) We're doing those we exploit a favor. My wrongs lead to a greater good. These sins are necessary. Lies we tell ourselves. I think truth and deception relative to power and violence are emerging as major recurring themes this season. Terminus was honest with themselves but deceitful to prospective meals - but then overtly brutal. The hospital was deceitful to everyone, and it had a culture of deceit. Terminus killed you in an abattoir, the hospital slipped you the wrong pills. And interestingly, both settlements were faught with their own techniques. The Terminus leadership was butchered. Carol's daylight commando raid contrasts interestingly with Beth's spy-thriller escape. I'm excited to see how introducing Carol into this environment will turn out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:31
|
|
|
moths posted:There was also a line about how "the wards" role was to keep her men happy, which implies that she's ruining a rape-based economy. Some people literally quit watching less than half way in to play with their phones or whatever, and they think that's the show's fault.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
Goddamn the characters in this show are dumb. They give up a safe environment, only because they can't deal with the occasional rape. And the person in charge being an abusive coward. And your only real friend being beaten up. And another guy, who you thought was your friend, letting you murder a person and trying to fool you into thinking it's actually your mistake. Also, nothing happened this episode.Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:You know that's a good point, all the Greenes were guilty of was keeping walkers in a barn in a misguided effort to keep them safe until a cure came along, and a hunting accident. Then Rick's crew rolls in and the entire family either dies or is assimilated. The herd wasn't drawn there by Rick's group though, so maybe they would have been worse off without them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
pookerbug posted:Did I somehow miss any discussion about the fleet of black cars parked outside the hospital? I think that was total bullshit the moment they said they found her knocked out on the side of the road. You notice the recurring theme after that that everyone brought in is knocked out except the crazy bitch in cuffs? Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:Can we have Rick & Co. at least one time see a new group of people (in any situation) and say "nope". Hmm...backpack guy? Gunslinger Rick at the Herschel bar? Didn't we kinda get that from the get go this season with Rick demanding to go back and wipe out Terminus only to have it bite them in the rear end when it didn't before they went all no survivors? Cingulate posted:They're bad people, but the comparison group are a bunch of murderous CANNIBALS. Yeah, why they do you the great favor of assaulting you to "rescue" you. Why they're just a decent group with a few bad quirks...not to mention the leader that seems perfectly ok with beating people like an abusive slave owner. Cingulate posted:I didn't make that connection. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, the episode wasn't especially exciting. If it's truly institutional, it's a different scenario. New thread title right there. SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:51
|
|
"I don't think we should trust them"
BUT THERE'S SOME GOOD LEFT IN THIS WORLD
|
Parity warning posted:Some people literally quit watching less than half way in to play with their phones or whatever, and they think that's the show's fault. Well when it's boring as gently caress I do blame the show
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
Parity warning posted:Some people literally quit watching less than half way in to play with their phones or whatever, and they think that's the show's fault. e:f,b
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
It seems odd to me that this show can afford a couple dozen extra's for all the zombie scenes, but for some reason when we're told about a small society of folks with their own social order, there only appears to be about seven of em. Like, maybe that was intentional, but every time a character went on about the system they have in place, it sounded like they were referring to something a little more substantial. Which is a shame, because the episodes beginning shot with the janitor dude just minding his own business was probably my favorite of the episode. What a brilliantly uncanny thing to see that someone has enough peace of mind to work as a janitor in this post-apocalyptic world. Also, I dunno why Beth is smiling when broken leg dude escapes. We've seen in the past that unarmed folks with limps don't do well against zombies out in the wild.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
It wasn't boring if you watched it. But we'll probably get another stabby smashy goon-pleaser soon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
moths posted:I think Dawn's speech was basically where the episode clicks. The "greater good" speech was bullshit, and her performance conveyed that at some level she realized it. But she needs that, because the alternative is to acknowledge that she's running a glorified rape gang of slavers. (Terminus was refreshingly honest with its depravity, by contrast.) It also wasn't especially subtle. The Rape Cop was Rape Cop from literally the first time we meet him (favor nudge nudge?), there's this scene with Noah scrubbing while Dawn gives him orders, and so on. In fact, the early scenes being so over the top is what made me tune out. The hospital was a big cliche - the Greater God, Rape Cop - there's a reason everybody is putting that guy in all caps. I'm not saying Terminus was all that special, but the leader's actor really sold the guy. EatinCake posted:It seems odd to me that this show can afford a couple dozen extra's for all the zombie scenes, but for some reason when we're told about a small society of folks with their own social order, there only appears to be about seven of em. Like, maybe that was intentional, but every time a character went on about the system they have in place, it sounded like they were referring to something a little more substantial. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:01
|
|
|
moths posted:It wasn't boring if you watched it. But we'll probably get another stabby smashy goon-pleaser soon. Well I watched it with another person who wasn't on any device and they said it was boring as gently caress too sooooo edit: EatinCake posted:What a brilliantly uncanny thing to see that someone has enough peace of mind to work as a janitor in this post-apocalyptic world. He just didn't want to get raped
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:Well when it's boring as gently caress I do blame the show The point is people decided that it was "boring as gently caress" by 15 minutes in, or hell probably as soon as they realized it was a more Beth-centric episode. Wasn't my favorite ep this season but if you can't handle a change of pace and give up before a quarter of the episode no sorry that is you having no patience or attention span. moths posted:It wasn't boring if you watched it. But we'll probably get another stabby smashy goon-pleaser soon. Also this, don't worry fair goons you'll get what you want soon enough
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:04
|
|
|
Parity warning posted:The point is people decided that it was "boring as gently caress" by 15 minutes in, or hell probably as soon as they realized it was a more Beth-centric episode. Wasn't my favorite ep this season but if you can't handle a change of pace and give up before a quarter of the episode no sorry that is you having no patience or attention span. Timeline of episode: 1:00-40:00 nothing happens 41:00 awesomeness 42:00-60:00 worst plan ever
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:06
|
|
|
This idea that people don't like it because it's a Beth episode, or because it's not violent, don't really reflect the posts in this thread. I don't see any Beth hate, the episode was actually pretty violent (though of course not on the level of Carol's Rambo run in ep. 1), and the complaints are about things like Dawn's lines being bad.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:08
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:It also wasn't especially subtle. The Rape Cop was Rape Cop from literally the first time we meet him (favor nudge nudge?) What was subtle was that they were ALL rape cops. It was a predatory culture that exploited their "wards" in every way, and the alpha ward was willing to murder when his place at the top of the bottom was threatened. It was an interesting episode. A lot happened, and revealed lot about the TWD world. But it was also a lot more mature than the show has been, and I entirely understand how that change in tone could be off-putting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:This idea that people don't like it because it's a Beth episode, or because it's not violent, don't really reflect the posts in this thread. I don't see any Beth hate, the episode was actually pretty violent (though of course not on the level of Carol's Rambo run in ep. 1), and the complaints are about things like Dawn's lines being bad. Basically this The whole time we were waiting / hoping that Beth would be awesome. It took 40 minutes of really lame build-up for a pretty good payoff. Not even suspenseful buildup. Just a lame buildup with pervy dudes. And then plan. The loving plan. "I've been planning this for months but I didn't pack any goddamn supplies"
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:Timeline of episode: Was 41 minutes the lollipop scene?
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
TraderStav posted:Was 41 minutes the lollipop scene? The lollipop jar to the face scene
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:13
|
|
|
You might be a sexual deviant if you consider rape cop shoving the lollipop in beth's mouth the only "awesomeness" of the episode
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:14
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:This idea that people don't like it because it's a Beth episode, or because it's not violent, don't really reflect the posts in this thread. I don't see any Beth hate, hahahaha okay buddy
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:15
|
|
|
moths posted:It wasn't boring if you watched it. But we'll probably get another stabby smashy goon-pleaser soon. I did watch it and it was boring for the most part. You're stating your opinion as fact. (Which I know, should replace "The Internet Makes You Stupid" as this site's tag) moths posted:What was subtle was that they were ALL rape cops. It was a predatory culture that exploited their "wards" in every way, and the alpha ward was willing to murder when his place at the top of the bottom was threatened. This is certainly how I took it. As I said up thread, this show doesn't always go the subtle route and so when it does...people get confused.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 21:21 |
|
|
I think this episode showed us what will happen when the group stops running into other groups. We get boring drama. So I guess we're stuck with more Governers, Rape gangs, Cannibals, and Rape cops. Who wants to see the world get put back together? Nobody really wants Rick & Co. to find safety. That wouldn't make a good show. Does anybody really think the show's going to end with hugs and rainbows?
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 22:20
|
|