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YF-23 posted:For what it's worth Greece has the same inferiority complex, and its political history in the last century is not entirely dissimilar to Portugal's. We really aren't, but there's some academic work done (and a lot more to be done) on the nature of our political system - the way the 'protest vote' goes to the communists by default, for example, is very peculiar and definitely related to the way the country evolved in the mid 70s. 'Ideologically', though, all you need to do to find a potential fascist is get into a taxi. 
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Nov 2, 2014 13:51
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YF-23 posted:For what it's worth Greece has the same inferiority complex, and its political history in the last century is not entirely dissimilar to Portugal's. I don't think Portugal is an anti-fascist snowflake, but I do think it's odd that an extreme right wing party hasn't risen up or is making any sort of waves, and the moment for one to do that has passed already. Look at the rest of Europe and you see those parties rise up everywhere; Marine LePen may actually have a chance in France, UKIP is making headway in Britain, Germany and Greece elected neo-nazis for the Europarliament, Denmark and Finland also put their own brand of nutters in Strasbourg. Spain actually sent a populist left wing party so that's something. But you look now at Portugal and you see that the Socialist Party might win with majority, that PSD will have to go find a new candidate for 2019, that the Communist Party will proclaim another victory against right wing politics with it's usual 10%, and that BE is still alive somehow. It's like nothing happened since 2011.
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Nov 2, 2014 14:10
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Portugalchat, I kinda like Moonspell's music but I'm not really sure where they fall on the political spectrum. Songs like this kind of hit some red flags in their lyrics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPpdzFP6vjs The bits in Portuguese are actually quoting Salazar. There's also something deeply ironic about making a song ostensibly about your mother tongue, and singing it in English.
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Nov 2, 2014 14:12
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Haha, their "badass" album cover is basically a three wolf moon shirt.
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Nov 2, 2014 14:22
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Cat Mattress posted:Portugalchat, I kinda like Moonspell's music but I'm not really sure where they fall on the political spectrum. Songs like this kind of hit some red flags in their lyrics. The irony is not lost. Fernando Ribeiro(the singer and face of the band) is some truth in the middle, "don't trust in no politician" bullshit. Edit: Moonspell are the Portuguese equivalent of Rammstein really. Though they get accused more of satanism than fascism. SaltyJesus posted:Haha, their "badass" album cover is basically a three wolf moon shirt. The 90's were hard on everybody man Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 14:34
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KoldPT posted:We really aren't, but there's some academic work done (and a lot more to be done) on the nature of our political system - the way the 'protest vote' goes to the communists by default, for example, is very peculiar and definitely related to the way the country evolved in the mid 70s. If there's a definition of moral apnea it's entering a taxi and letting the motherfucker say everything he wants because it's 4 a.m. and there's no way to return home otherwise. Electronico6 posted:I don't think Portugal is an anti-fascist snowflake, but I do think it's odd that an extreme right wing party hasn't risen up or is making any sort of waves, and the moment for one to do that has passed already. Look at the rest of Europe and you see those parties rise up everywhere; Marine LePen may actually have a chance in France, UKIP is making headway in Britain, Germany and Greece elected neo-nazis for the Europarliament, Denmark and Finland also put their own brand of nutters in Strasbourg. Spain actually sent a populist left wing party so that's something. It's not really hard to see it in the rest of Europe. In countries where the left had a complete and total meltdown like France, Germany or England you'll see people flocking to the right because the left is dead. Where the left still has some oxygen (Portugal, Spain, Czech Republic and thanks to the good work of SIRIZA, Greece) you'll see literal fascism receive some resistance. A victory of the socialist party wouldn't be a victory to anything leftist, quite the contrary. Putting an Indian criminal in charge of the country to continue PSD's legacy would allow all the closeted racists to point out how the country is going to poo poo because of the browns. And if Costa's views on public sanitation are implanted on a national level then i fear PNR will have a field day with the "cleaning up" puns. Cat Mattress posted:Portugalchat, I kinda like Moonspell's music but I'm not really sure where they fall on the political spectrum. Songs like this kind of hit some red flags in their lyrics.
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Nov 2, 2014 16:59
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Mans posted:Putting an Indian criminal in charge of the country to continue PSD's legacy would allow all the closeted racists to point out how the country is going to poo poo because of the browns. A bit harsh this on Subir Lall.
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Nov 2, 2014 19:06
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Electronico6 posted:Moonspell are the Portuguese equivalent of Rammstein really. OK now this is actual inferiority.
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Nov 3, 2014 02:01
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Doctor Malaver posted:OK now this is actual inferiority. Well, moonspell are a very popular portuguese export in germany, second only to engineers and laziness
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Nov 3, 2014 02:09
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SO it seems Angela Merkel thinks Portugal has too many college graduates. Yeah, who do the Portuguese think they are? Right now they have 17% college graduates if nothing is done one of these days they'll reach the EU average of 25% and then what? Then again when our own government tells us we must lower wages and forego work protections in order to compete with the Chinese what can you expect from Europe. The EU has become a parody of what it once was, if we are by design to be consigned to poverty and unqualified work then what loving Union is this? MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 17:23
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KoldPT posted:Well, moonspell are a very popular portuguese export in germany, second only to engineers and laziness you forgot football players
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Nov 4, 2014 18:26
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Front National is financed by Russia http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/221114/marine-le-pen-decroche-les-millions-russes
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Nov 23, 2014 11:29
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3peat posted:Front National is financed by Russia http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/221114/marine-le-pen-decroche-les-millions-russes http://ria.ru/economy/20141123/1034667007.html I know Le Pen has spoke positively about Putin's "patriotic economic model." Far right parties are one thing, but an expansionist nuclear-armed single-party state on the EU's borders pouring millions of euros into fascist parties is a little concerning!!! BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 12:41
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I had a look to see if there might be a similar connection between Russia and UKIP, and well, what do you know?
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Nov 23, 2014 14:39
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Rutkowski posted:Bumping this thread with an update from Sweden who had our general election(as well as regionals and municipal elections) this sunday. Maybe if you actually let people discuss things like immigration openly a facist party wouldn't get 13% of the vote. Regards, Norway
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Nov 23, 2014 14:42
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Is it even legal for Le Pen to receive that kind of money? Sarkozy didn't hear the end of his contributions from Gaddafi.
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Nov 23, 2014 14:53
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Roy posted:Maybe if you actually let people discuss things like immigration openly a facist party wouldn't get 13% of the vote. When people say they're "not allowed to talk about immigration openly" they mean that people react negatively to them saying they want to stop non-western immigration. Well, here a bunch of right-wing and center parties have been "talking about immigration openly" for a number of years now, and our fascist party is still polling as the second largest party. Sincerely, the Netherlands
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Nov 23, 2014 15:03
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Roy posted:Maybe if you actually let people discuss things like immigration openly a facist party wouldn't get 13% of the vote. So letting the racists win is preferable to letting the racists win? I'll fully admit I'm an ugly American, but I'd think that not allowing your main parties to run on nativist garbage is a good thing. Allowing one of the major parties to be nativist might actually stem immigration. But allowing immigration will eventually destroy that idea's political clout, either through the demographic boulder or just through being near immigrants. The damage is when you allow a major party to use it to have a temper tantrum on their way out the door, like we've done in the US. If you've found a way to keep that from happening, I can't see how that's not a win-win. quote:Front National is financed by Russia http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/fra...millions-russes Is this legal in your country? I thought most democracies didn't allow extranational open support of parties, because there's a whole can of worms you're seeing here. rkajdi fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 15:22
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ekuNNN posted:When people say they're "not allowed to talk about immigration openly" they mean that people react negatively to them saying they want to stop non-western immigration. Well, here a bunch of right-wing and center parties have been "talking about immigration openly" for a number of years now, and our fascist party is still polling as the second largest party. At least you can probably meet them with arguments rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalala everything is perfect" like Sweden. Immigration isn't 100% good. There are many issues. It's not a black and white phenomenon (no pun intended). Some people have legitimate concerns. If you attack anyone who expresses doubt or a critical sentiment as a racist nazi you're basically driving them into the hands of facist echo chambers. At least they will listen. I think the problem with Sweden is that they just can't openly discuss uncomfortable and dangerous ideas. The only way to stem dangerous ideas is to get people to think about what they are really proposing. The only way to do that is open discussion. Shutting it down is like trying to ban drugs or get the internet to stop sharing pictures of your house. It's only going to make things worse.
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Nov 23, 2014 15:28
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Roy posted:At least you can probably meet them with arguments rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalala everything is perfect" like Sweden. Hmm yes. On the other hand, the last 15 years of Dutch politics.
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Nov 23, 2014 16:02
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ufarn posted:Sarkozy didn't hear the end of his contributions from Gaddafi. Operation Harmattan took care of that. rkajdi posted:Is this legal in your country? I thought most democracies didn't allow extranational open support of parties, because there's a whole can of worms you're seeing here. I think the loophole is that it's not funding but lending. There's no law against parties borrowing money from foreign banks AFAIK.
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Nov 23, 2014 16:19
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Orange Devil posted:Hmm yes. What, political murder is A-OK now?
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Nov 23, 2014 16:34
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Nov 23, 2014 16:43
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kapparomeo posted:What, political murder is A-OK now? When I disagreed with the poster's logic I was indeed advocating political murder, how astute of you. Seriously though go gently caress yourself.
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Nov 23, 2014 16:50
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Roy posted:At least you can probably meet them with arguments rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalala everything is perfect" like Sweden. Uh, immigration is 100% good, assuming some very basic things (mostly not allowing a permanent underclass and allowing as fairly easy road to citizenship) And if you're worried about "too much too fast" or any of that garbage, you are a racist. Really drat simple. We in the US would be much better off if we didn't have openly nativist discussions, and I can't imagine it being any better for nations with a more established ethnic identity.
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Nov 24, 2014 00:09
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Given the demographic troubles facing many European countries it is actually factually 100% necessary to have large scale immigration unless you want permanent depression in the economy
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Nov 24, 2014 00:22
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icantfindaname posted:Given the demographic troubles facing many European countries it is actually factually 100% necessary to have large scale immigration unless you want permanent depression in the economy Europe wants to be the Elves from Lord of the Rings, content to fade away rather than mingling with the unwashed masses. (See also: Japan)
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Nov 24, 2014 00:29
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rkajdi posted:Uh, immigration is 100% good, assuming some very basic things (mostly not allowing a permanent underclass and allowing as fairly easy road to citizenship) And if you're worried about "too much too fast" or any of that garbage, you are a racist. Really drat simple. We in the US would be much better off if we didn't have openly nativist discussions, and I can't imagine it being any better for nations with a more established ethnic identity. I think the urban-rural divide is key here. In a big city, you don't really notice large-scale immigration, or at least it's nothing new. But it can have a profound effect on small towns. And I have a sneaking suspicion that left-leaning types are generally comfortable with immigration because the immigrants tend to support left-leaning parties. Were it the opposite, perhaps not as much. There's a community of ultra-orthodox Jewish religious conservatives who in the past few years took over a small town in New York, hijacked the school board and then defunded the town's education programs so they wouldn't have to pay the property tax (they had their own private schools). Well, the existing community of non-Jewish Democrats in the town started getting really anxious about all these newcomers. Were the newcomers Muslims (let's say) and the townspeople more conservative and lived in the South, you could imagine the reaction from the left might be different. I could imagine that. icantfindaname posted:Given the demographic troubles facing many European countries it is actually factually 100% necessary to have large scale immigration unless you want permanent depression in the economy BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 00:33
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Urban communities are exactly where you see immigration because that's where immigrants go.
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Nov 24, 2014 00:35
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computer parts posted:Urban communities are exactly where you see immigration because that's where immigrants go. http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2014/01/05/small-town-immigration-creates-great-cultural-divide/7rtIuuAo8fj85MdeniW52M/story.html Let's say New York City's immigrant population increases by 38 percent, as it did in the 1990s. That's an increase from 2.1 million immigrants living in the city to 2.9 million. In a bustling, diverse city of 8+ million. You have an equivalent percent population increase in a small town with very few if any immigrants, the town changes a lot more relative to the big city. Now replicate that across large regions of the country. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 00:38
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Omi-Polari posted:There are issues to work out. Namely, what if the native community feels displaced by the new immigrants or start to feel like strangers in their own country? It's easy to simply call them racists, but large-scale immigration does cause changes within a community. Should the members of that community be allowed to have a voice in those changes? At the least, the issue needs to be de-escalated. Sorry, worrying about your community being changed because of "those people" is racist as hell, no matter how suit & tie the speaker is. This is doubly true in the US, since the primary people worrying about immigration are themselves the descendants off immigrants. We need to be cool with the end of western ethnically-based states, just like it was cool when we destroyed a bunch of religious states, at least on paper. quote:And I have a sneaking suspicion that left-leaning types are generally comfortable with immigration because the immigrants tend to support left-leaning parties. Were it the opposite, perhaps not as much. There's a community of ultra-orthodox Jewish religious conservatives who in the past few years took over a small town in New York, hijacked the school board and then defunded the town's education programs so they wouldn't have to pay the property tax (they had their own private schools). Well, the existing community of non-Jewish Democrats in the town started getting really anxious about all these newcomers. Were the newcomers Muslims (let's say) and the townspeople more conservative and lived in the South, you could imagine the reaction from the left might be different. I could imagine that. The issue here is that you have people defunding a required service of the state. You can't simply remove public education because you don't value a working and integrated education system-- we've already had court decisions to that regard. I support immigrants coming here even if they the rightest wing assholes imaginable, since I realize that immigration is what made the US strong. And with reversion to mean, their kids or kids' kids are just Joe Average-- you see that with Cuban expats, who were in general the oppressors and crazily right-wing, while now the community is much more similar to other hispanic groups (i.e. worried about nativist trash making their lives awful) It also helps that it's going to help turn the US into the first non-white superpower, which is a huge step away from the ethnic-based state.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:02
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rkajdi posted:It also helps that it's going to help turn the US into the first non-white superpower, which is a huge step away from the ethnic-based state. What's China, then, chopped liver?
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Nov 24, 2014 01:06
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rkajdi posted:Uh, immigration is 100% good, assuming some very basic things (mostly not allowing a permanent underclass and allowing as fairly easy road to citizenship) And if you're worried about "too much too fast" or any of that garbage, you are a racist. Really drat simple. We in the US would be much better off if we didn't have openly nativist discussions, and I can't imagine it being any better for nations with a more established ethnic identity. It's great about accusing someone of racism that you don't need to prove it. Let him or her prove that they are not. They'll look like one of those "I'm not a racist, but..." people. It only gets worse when you try to fight it. And you of course look from your moral higher ground, enjoying yet another victory.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:07
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Darth Walrus posted:What's China, then, chopped liver? Not yet a superpower.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:09
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Darth Walrus posted:What's China, then, chopped liver? It's definitely not a superpower.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:09
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Darth Walrus posted:What's China, then, chopped liver? "hosed" I believe is an apt description.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:12
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Darth Walrus posted:What's China, then, chopped liver? If you mean super-power, then I'd argue China is on its way into imploding economically, and will fall apart well before they reach super-power status. If you mean post-ethnic state, I'd argue that it's not since the Han control most of the Party and thus control the state.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:16
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rkajdi posted:If you mean super-power, then I'd argue China is on its way into imploding economically, and will fall apart well before they reach super-power status. If you mean post-ethnic state, I'd argue that it's not since the Han control most of the Party and thus control the state. To play devil's advocate if the requirements for a super power involved never going into any sort of economic downturn then there's not a country on earth that has that designation. Even if you only apply that to "democratic" states then no country other than the US has ever been a superpower.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:20
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Darth Walrus posted:What's China, then, chopped liver? A state that invaded and annexed other nations and is now hard at work erasing those cultures by Han-ifying them? The Uighyrs and Tibetans didn't choose to be part of China, unlike immigrants to the US
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Nov 24, 2014 01:22
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rkajdi posted:Sorry, worrying about your community being changed because of "those people" is racist as hell, no matter how suit & tie the speaker is. This is doubly true in the US, since the primary people worrying about immigration are themselves the descendants off immigrants. We need to be cool with the end of western ethnically-based states, just like it was cool when we destroyed a bunch of religious states, at least on paper.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:25
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