|
MonsterEnvy posted:Anyway I will have our answer eventually. For now I can play the same game as you. Show me proof that a formula was not used. Given that they have a formula why would they have ignored it. Heres my post from earlier in the thread which showed a bunch of monsters which were way off for their CR: kingcom posted:Aarakoca are 1/4CR and enemies who will be constantly flying overhead hucking spears at whoever. They do 1 less damage than an orc (1/2) , are pretty sturdy themselves and are essentially screwing over anyone who doesn't take ranged into account. This is unfortunately one of those 'everyone has to have a melee weapon and it screws specific classes and not others' which is hard to be tangible with but the point still stands they are half the value of an orc for a pretty game changing set of abilities. I can't be bothered looking for all the math people did on how Health scales very poorly to damage output or how AC fluctuates from trivial to un-hittable(not literally but im using hyperbole to indicate how it can be unfun to fight things) at various points. I really can't be arsed but just looking through my post history gets you that. kingcom fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Nov 5, 2014 |
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 04:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 06:56 |
|
|
Eh, honestly the race thing, while it could be handled better, does make a lot of sense. It's another background detail to your character - are you a foreigner who resettled into the current area? Are you native to where the campaign is but were raised/educated elsewhere? Are you just a traveler passing through? Did your family immigrate recently? It's a more mundane detail that a lot of people overlook. There's a lot of backstory prompts in there that can really help people flesh out their characters more.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Anyway I will have our answer eventually. For now I can play the same game as you. Show me proof that a formula was not used. Given that they have a formula why would they have ignored it. I tried to find a system, you dumb gently caress. I even showed you what I did while I was trying. I wasn't trying to disprove the existence of any system like you seem to think I was, I had a good look and I couldn't find one. Other people had a good look and also couldn't find one. I want there to be a system. I want it to exist so I can tweak things and have them still be within the intended framework. Your response is that you will "play the same game" as me? Fine. Great. Show me how you worked out that there really was a system and then show me what the system is. You and I are starting from the same assumption: That they should have had a formula. You're prepared to say "they should have, so they did". I'm saying that if there is one, I can't see evidence of it. Listen to this next part carefully because it's the part you keep loving missing: I want there to be a formula. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
MadScientistWorking posted:It typically is because more often than not those races are whittled down to the most basest of stereotypes and often those aren't even based upon reality. Admittedly, D&D isn't unique in that regard but this is kind of the first time they were more flagrant about it for a while now. Stereotypes in themselves aren't racist, they are just stereotypes. Assuming they apply to real people and judging real people as if they were a stereotype is ignorant and bigoted. The DMG lists sketches of cultures to be inclusive. They are sketches because everything in the core books is a sketch: that's the real purpose of D&D, to get your mind going about all the cool fantasy things you can make. Elven and dwarven cultures are just sketched out too, to be a starting point for you to make up more stuff. If the human cultural sketches are bare bones that sucks; it should totally have things like the Arabian-themed water city somebody just made up and other ways to make fantasy versions of real cultures because that's neat. If it was really cool it'd have a bibliography or suggested reading. Yeah, that's cultural appropriation, so what? Fantasy myopically lionizes Western culture. Have fun with another culture, too. Maybe get a book. Maybe not. It's loving fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:11
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:I tried. Others tried. We couldn't find a way to reverse-engineer a system for building monsters. My intention was not to disprove the existence of a system but to find one if it existed, because as you still somehow don't understand, I want to be able to enjoy this game. Also, for the record, you can't prove a negative. You can seriously point at the likelihood being that no formula existed, you can point out that it's the most likely solution to the problem, but short of Mearls admitting to it you'll never be able to pull a non-system out of a bunch of random numbers. You can't prove it. It's literally impossible. Asking for a non-proof of a system is just silly. Like others of have said a lot of math-savy people have tried to recreate one. If it exists, it is so counter-intuitive that it probably isn't useful. No, I can't prove that. Only say that it is probably not useful. Just started my game of Next last night. Made a very dishonest Tiefling Warlock named Promise and enjoying the game so far. Our DM is a little green but we're still having fun. I fully admit that it probably isn't 5th itself being good - though if it weren't for DnD this is not a group of 6 people who would play a game together under any other circumstances so I guess mission accomplished?
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:16
|
|
|
quote:Your response is that you will "play the same game" as me? Fine. Great. Show me how you worked out that there really was a system and then show me what the system is. Reddit AMA posted:"The DMG breaks down CR into an offensive and defensive rating, with a range of values for each (attack bonus and damage for offense, AC and hit points for defense). Special abilities can also modify those CRs, and this is where a fair amount of design sense and playtesting comes in to make sure that something is weighed correctly. i honestly find the "Are you so credulous as to still believe that everything will somehow be fixed in the DMG?" thing pretty funny though. A lot of stuff for GMing properly just isn't available yet. Pointing that out is pretty reasonable! TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:19
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:Just started my game of Next last night. Made a very dishonest Tiefling Warlock named Promise and enjoying the game so far. Our DM is a little green but we're still having fun. I fully admit that it probably isn't 5th itself being good - though if it weren't for DnD this is not a group of 6 people who would play a game together under any other circumstances so I guess mission accomplished? As has been said, you can totally have fun with it. People are not saying that in the slightest (this is not directed at you but more a general comment). Its just, this game has flaws, big flaws and you need to understand those flaws if you want to play it and work around them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:19
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:Also, for the record, you can't prove a negative. Yes, I know. I just can't find it, but that doesn't mean it's not there. If there is a system, it produced weird results, which is the biggest reason I want to see it - because the system that produced weird results is probably tweakable to produce better results, and I can start doing that (yes, I don't like it so I will write a houserule, as suggested by the lead designer). If, on the other hand, there is no system or the system remains hidden, I need to approach the whole thing differently and it will be much more effort. TheDeadlyShoe posted:i linked someone reverse engineering the system a long time ago, but as per Mike Mearls: I know what Mearls said, and I already posted about what's wrong with it. I've been following the guy you linked, and last time I looked he'd produced some charts but nothing that could be used to build an MM monster from a set of rules. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:24
|
|
|
MartianAgitator posted:Stereotypes in themselves aren't racist, they are just stereotypes. Assuming they apply to real people and judging real people as if they were a stereotype is ignorant and bigoted. MartianAgitator posted:Have fun with another culture, too. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Nov 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 05:30
|
|
|
MartianAgitator posted:The DMG lists sketches of cultures to be inclusive. They are sketches because everything in the core books is a sketch: that's the real purpose of D&D, to get your mind going about all the cool fantasy things you can make. Elven and dwarven cultures are just sketched out too, to be a starting point for you to make up more stuff. If the human cultural sketches are bare bones that sucks; it should totally have things like the Arabian-themed water city somebody just made up and other ways to make fantasy versions of real cultures because that's neat. If it was really cool it'd have a bibliography or suggested reading.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 06:07
|
|
|
I thought the black fighter and black wizard were pretty cool.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 06:09
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:i linked someone reverse engineering the system a long time ago, but as per Mike Mearls: That's just some guy saying "ok, monsters of this CR all have HP that ranges from x to y, with an average of z", and repeat for damage and AC. It's still very much "it's up to your DM", and while I understand that some of it is always going to be up to your DM regardless, the range is just really really wide.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 06:59
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:I don't have the platinum upgrade which would be the easiest way to find it nor do I care enough to bother searching through the thread. It's Schrodinger's apology for now. Click the ? at the bottom of your post over under your username. For story my paladin is going to head back to the the home of his order of paladins to swear his level 3 vows. I was just curious about opinions on a paladin not being allowed to use his oath powers until he goes and swears it? In my specific instance this isn't the case, my DM hasn't said I can't use them. I'm just tempted to play it that way because I'm a filthy story gamer. I'm torn between my desire to hit things with a giant glowing hammer (with a +7 to hit!) and my desire to try and "stay in character," as the character exists in my brain.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 07:09
|
|
|
Hey everyone. I finally got my PHB and I'm kind of wondering about the binding quality of these books - the Hoard of the Dragon Queen book looks fine (despite the cheaper paper) and my Monster Manual looks more or less okay, but my PHB has kind of "wavy" pages for at least the first third of the book. It looks almost like water damage but slightly less severe. Is this at all normal? On the one hand I kind of want to bitch to Amazon about it and see about a replacement, but on the other hand it came from a third party seller and who knows what their policies are. Plus I waited over a week for this one to arrive, I don't really want to be stuck waiting for another one especially if there's a chance that it will show up in the same condition.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 07:13
|
|
|
Ryoshi posted:Hey everyone. I finally got my PHB and I'm kind of wondering about the binding quality of these books - the Hoard of the Dragon Queen book looks fine (despite the cheaper paper) and my Monster Manual looks more or less okay, but my PHB has kind of "wavy" pages for at least the first third of the book. It looks almost like water damage but slightly less severe. 2) Buy a PHB with nice clean flat pages 3) Take it hope and wait a couple of days 4) Get your Amazon copy of the PHB and your receipt 5) Go to Barnes & Noble 6) Return the book. Say it was gift for someone who already had a copy. 7) Go home to your pristine PHB
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 07:16
|
|
|
epic fantasy based racism DND 5e
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 11:40
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:i linked someone reverse engineering the system a long time ago, but as per Mike Mearls: Have you actually read that quote? He says that they used the raw numbers to put together an offense CR & defense CR, averaged them, and then used tummy-feels to adjust that CR based on monsters' special abilities. So for instance, let's compare The Aboleth and the Deva, who are both CR10 and should therefore be roughly similar. The Deva- On the defense side, has AC 17, HP 136, Advantage on saving throws against all magical effects as well as +9 to Wis and Cha saves. He also has resistances to radiant and notnmagical weapons, as well as immunity to charm, exhaustion, and frightened. On the offense side he's got two +8 attacks that deal 25 damage. The aboleth- On the defense side, AC 17, HP 135, +6 Con, +8 Int, and +6 Wis saves. It also has a weird mucous shield that makes melee attackers do a Con save or learn to breathe underwater which doesn't sound like a big deal at all. On the offense side, it can do 3 +9 attacks with 10 reach, which deal 12 damage each. On hit it forces a Con save or applies a disease that forces its target to stay underwater. It can also instead of attacking force a DC14 Wis save and charm a target. Additionally 3 times per round after a PC's turn it can do a +9 reach 10 attack that deals 15 damage or drain 10 health from a charmed enemy. It can also instead roll to find rogues. Are these monsters balanced? I mean jeez it doesn't seem like it but maybe. But considering that the majority of their offense and a portion of their defense are special abilities, I doubt Mike Mearls knows either.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:11
|
|
|
Traditionally, the aboleth's gill-giving thing also took away the ability to breathe air. Not sure if it still does in 5e or not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:15
|
|
|
Has anyone seen or heard of the aboleth being used in a game? To me it's always been something gross stuck in the book for reasons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:27
|
|
|
They've never told us how to get "offensive CR" and "defensive CR" either, have they? Intuitively it seems like a good idea: defensive CR is how hard the monster is to hit with weapon attacks (AC), how hard the monster is to hit with spell attacks (saves, resistance, etc) and how much damage it can absorb (HP). Offensive CR is how hard the monster hits back, which translates to how much of the party's resources it drains in terms of heals and buffs and healing dice. I went through the same mental process trying to come up with my own method of forming monsters. But if we still don't know how any CR is arrived at, offensive, defensive or combined, then they're not really telling us much of anything.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:30
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:They've never told us how to get "offensive CR" and "defensive CR" either, have they? I mean they said that there is a chart with appropriate value ranges for OCR and DCR. Now there's a question of how broad those ranges are, but even if you take them at there word that the chart exists and the ranges are appropriate and you ignore the fact that offense is WAY more important for monsters than defense (that is, a monster with high damage does not suddenly become balanced because you made it a glass cannon), it still doesn't matter because they are straight up admitting that there is no math behind the CR adjustments based on specials. And the special balancing is visibly bad. If you remove all the specials from the Aboleth and Deva they are basically the same CR, but the Aboleth's specials are WAY THE gently caress BETTER and they are still the same CR after adjustments!
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:36
|
|
|
Esser-Z posted:Traditionally, the aboleth's gill-giving thing also took away the ability to breathe air. Not sure if it still does in 5e or not. The text says "the diseased creature can breathe only underwater". Now it doesn't say they gain the ability to breathe while in water if they didn't have it, just that they cannot breathe anywhere except the water, so RAW it seems to say they just suffocate to death without a heal but I think RAI it's just supposed to relegate you to the water like their tentacle stuff does. Also are there even suffocation rules?
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 18:38
|
|
|
Babylon Astronaut posted:I don't even have a problem with saying something like "people in this region speak this language and dress like this and like to eat this kind of food." Ok, that's setting detail. But why the hell is choose your ethnicity part of character creation especially if it has no mechanical effect. If supporting it with rules would be bad (like +1 int, -1 cha for Africans) then don't put it in the character creation section of the core rulebook.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 19:14
|
|
|
I liked Forgotten Realms because I played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 shortly after I got into D&D and I was in an impressionable period. It doesn't really hold up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 19:18
|
|
|
Jackard posted:Has anyone seen or heard of the aboleth being used in a game? To me it's always been something gross stuck in the book for reasons. I've wanted to use them in a game for the longest time, because evil psychic coelacanths that turn their psychic slaves into evil fishmen is conceptually so out there that it actually manages to be scary and weird in a way that most D&D monsters don't really do. They've also received some interesting flavortext throughout their existence in the game, so now in addition to being evil psychic prehistorical fish they're also the oldest living creatures in the multiverse and supposedly have ancestral memory, so that's cool and creepy. That said, none of my D&D campaigns have ever progressed to the point where I'd feel fair at throwing them at my players, and when they actually do progress to that point I tend to play it safe and boring with more iconic and recognizable monsters. But yeah, I guess that just proves your point: they're one of those D&D legacy monsters that stick around from edition to edition because of tradition without having all that much traction among players, which is probably why they don't see that much use.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 19:22
|
|
|
One thing I've always liked about the Aboleth is that they are scared shitless by mind flayers, because of their ancestral memory they can look back and see the rise of all other races, but the mind flayers came from a distant future and they have no memory of them. This is the worst case scenario for the Aboleth because it creates a great unknown variable. I like abberations
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 19:36
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:I liked Forgotten Realms because I played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 shortly after I got into D&D and I was in an impressionable period. It doesn't really hold up. Unlike the Dragonlance books, things tend to actually happen in the FR books. I would not doubt that's one reason that we continuously get FR books and I have not seen a new Dragonlance book since I was in high school.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:I liked Forgotten Realms because I played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 shortly after I got into D&D and I was in an impressionable period. It doesn't really hold up. There's some good stories in FR, but it always feels like its fighting against the setting and not working with it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
I once had an Epic Evil campaign that got caught in a feud between a Mind Flayer pirate and a Giant White Aboleth psychically controlling an entire weather system. Obvious Moby Dick implications aside, it was pretty cool to have a sea adventure with psionics where they had to make constant will and skill checks to stay alive and free the enslaved mindflayer crew.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 23:30
|
|
|
Ratpick posted:But yeah, I guess that just proves your point: they're one of those D&D legacy monsters that stick around from edition to edition because of tradition without having all that much traction among players, which is probably why they don't see that much use.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 23:38
|
|
|
FMguru posted:I do like the idea of there being a kind of monster dwelling way down down below the lowest level of the deepest dungeon that even demigod-level heroes think twice before messing with, and if you dig down far enough you will break through to the layer where the Horrible Things From The Before-Time dwell sleeping. Dungeons aren't just arbitrarily stacked with kobolds and skeletons on the top level and pit fiends and ancient red dragons on the bottom - there's something really, really unpleasant Down There and the further from the surface you go, the worse it is for you. That's the kind of D&D world-dynamic I can totally get behind. "There's something really bad and weird down there which ties all the shallower stuff together" is exactly how I've always tried to do dungeons. It's just way cooler that way. I love 13th Age's living dungeons as a concept - the idea that the really bad weird entity driving the adventure is the dungeon itself is awesome.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 00:47
|
|
|
Jackard posted:Has anyone seen or heard of the aboleth being used in a game? To me it's always been something gross stuck in the book for reasons. They're a big part of two of my favorite D&D campaigns: Neverwinter and the old Night Below campaign in a box.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 04:57
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:"There's something really bad and weird down there which ties all the shallower stuff together" is exactly how I've always tried to do dungeons. It's just way cooler that way. I love 13th Age's living dungeons as a concept - the idea that the really bad weird entity driving the adventure is the dungeon itself is awesome.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 05:43
|
|
|
Another DMG preview dropped, this time of the magic item tables From dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/excerpt-magic-items-table
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 13:33
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:Another DMG preview dropped, this time of the magic item tables I still can't understand why you'd bother writing up all these fun-sounding things that have a 1 percent chance of appearing on one of the many loot tables. Yeah, that's the way it's always been done and a good DM will put cool stuff in regardless, it just strikes me as dumb, probably a waste of space, and boring. "Hey guys, we got another healing potion and a 6th level spell scroll!" e: On the other hand, at least there's cool-sounding stuff in there. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Nov 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 13:51
|
|
|
I won't know how unique, special, and lucky I am unless the DM fudges a roll behind a screen before telling me I got something with only a 1% chance of appearing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 13:56
|
|
|
I don't think I've rolled on a loot table since the second game I even ran, back in highschool. I quickly learned it was more fun to pick out cool things to give my PCs than mess around rolling loot. Of course, I'm very much a "set the PCs up to be awesome" GM, so that my be a bit different from Mearls and co.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 13:57
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:I still can't understand why you'd bother writing up all these fun-sounding things that have a 1 percent chance of appearing on one of the many loot tables. I'm using random loot tables in my campaign, and what happened when I was rolling up loot for the last boss fight that party did was that the d100 hit on 100, which was a Potion of Youth. I ended up crafting a whole new plotline around it: the adventurers are too young to use it themselves, but they could give it to the King and earn a huge boon/favor from him, or give it one of the Kingdom's factions (to then give to the King or their own aged leader) and earn a favor from them, or just sell it to the market for a shitload of money. It's also such a valuable item that to get back to the Kingdom on the home continent they either have to accompany the ship, or arrange for someone to guard the ship for them if they want to stay where they are and work on the current plotlines. Not to mention the fact that it was stolen from a Dragon's hoard, who'll be looking for it for sure. So, it has its uses, I guess? I'm a fairly lazy, low-prep DM so I like systems that have a lot of random generation tables so I can make poo poo up on the fly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 13:58
|
|
|
Oh, I don't mean to say it's bad to have the tables there, just that it's kinda poo poo that the interesting stuff is a 1% chance. To be clear here, I usually use random treasure tables the way the AD&D DMG tells you to - if I'm stuck for ideas, or if I've randomly generated an encounter/lair/hoard and don't want to have to think about what's in it, then I roll and discard stupid results. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Nov 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 14:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 06:56 |
|
|
Rolling on loot tables seems like a really impassionate, robotic way to DM rather than picking things out or making stuff up that would be interesting for your characters and the situation they're in.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 14:25
|
|
