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fozzy fosbourne posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j7lezDWh4M i never seen Man of Steel but seemed like a pretty cool scene to me. good acting, scoring, excellent, just ok overall, why worry?
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Nov 6, 2014 06:39
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prefect posted:Superman has to be a saint, because if he's not, you're constantly afraid he's going to turn into the Plutonian, Honestly the main compelling thematic thing about Superman at all is that he represents incredible power wielded with equally strong morality and compassion. Considering most people would agree with "absolute power corrupts absolutely", the fact Superman has it without corruption is probably his most impressive superpower of all. It's telling his biggest nemesis Luthor is really a somewhat exaggerated version of the real life people we all know who are an example of the corruption of power. Exploring the idea there's a temptation to go the other way (or showing others in similar positions failing the job) can give some interesting stories, but too much grimdark absolutely guts a character who's built on a concept like "power does not have to make you a bad person". I'm still not sure if MoS went too far in that regard (I think they were trying for showing off the temptation aspect but maybe overshot that), but I understand why it irritates Superman fans so much. Even if done perfectly you're dancing on very thin ice when you make Superman kill people or act like a bully to anybody. TwoPair posted:My brother likes IM2 more than IM3 because Tony and Rhodey beat all the drones and Whiplash. Like, under their own power without having to be bailed out by anyone. I honestly like all the MCU movies but I have had great big debates with my brother about both IM1 and IM3 because Tony wins the day via deus ex machina (the arc reactor explosion in 1 and Pepper in 3) and his stance on superhero movies is that a movie about a superhero should feature the superhero actually winning against the villain. Personally my main issue with IM2 (which I liked well enough, but it is the weakest of the three) is it lacked too much of Tony winning because he was clever as opposed to winning because he has uber power armor. He had a few moments with the reinventing vibranium plot, but even that was more his father than him. Stark's "superpowers" come from him being a very smart guy, it matters that he's the guy in the suit not the existence of the suit. IM3 was a really strong movie because it took that and ran with it hard. I don't know that I really buy the deus ex machine ending complaint either; IM1 was him walking Pepper through the reactor setup and getting Stane into position (and having the courage to sacrifice his life long before he ran a nuke through a portal). It's not deus ex if the protagonist comes up with the plan and helps carry it out, the reactor didn't randomly blow up and catch Stane after all. IM3... mayyyybe, but I took that as more trying to push the theme that one of Tony's strengths is his friends. Plus minus her getting to turn the tables on the bad guy herself, Pepper's part in the plot would be almost pure damsel in distress/fridge territory, just there to be a motivation for Tony and a victim for the bad guy to make us dislike him more.
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Nov 6, 2014 06:40
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True.
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Nov 6, 2014 06:41
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fozzy fosbourne posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j7lezDWh4M I know it's supposed to feel like a great big sad moment of a father's heroic sacrifice, and maybe it does in some ways, but mostly it plays like a comedy of errors starring some clumsy mofo that got himself killed by a tornado because the movie wasn't quite glum enough yet.
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Nov 6, 2014 07:10
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Anora posted:He did that poo poo to the dog too. Now I really hope DC will start taking after Marvel and adding post-credit scenes that tease their next films. I want to see a slow zoom on the Kent household, with faint barking, before a cut to Darksied just sitting on a couch, drinking a beer, while the dog barks at him for a solid 45 seconds. Then he puts down the beer, says "Ok, that's about enough of that" reaches toward the dog, and cut to black.
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Nov 6, 2014 07:14
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Captain Bravo posted:Now I really hope DC will start taking after Marvel and adding post-credit scenes that tease their next films. I want to see a slow zoom on the Kent household, with faint barking, before a cut to Darksied just sitting on a couch, drinking a beer, while the dog barks at him for a solid 45 seconds. That is god drat hilarious and they would never do it in a million years.
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Nov 6, 2014 07:25
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BrianWilly posted:God, it really is. Clark was already on his way to the dog (that they left locked in the car because [file not found]), Jonathan physically intercepts him to hand him a girl that couldn't have been carried by her own mother in the first place for some reason, and tells Clark to protect Martha on the treacherous journey to an overpass twenty feet away that literally everyone -- including her -- was heading towards anyway. Finally gets to the dog, and the dog won't leave the car. Why? Was it out of gas? Did it need a reboot? Car conveniently falls on top of them because of course it does, and the rest is history. Zac Snyder does not know how tornados work. Basically everyone, short of clark, should be dead there. You do not get that close to a tornado. Also I'm pretty sure tornados don't just make cars hump each other for like 30 seconds. Wait, was that tornado supposed to be symbolic of nerds? We are like Tornados humping the SlimGoodbody posted:That is god drat hilarious and they would never do it in a million years. Or they'd do it, but end the scene with Cavill showing up and silent screaming like at the end of that MoS clip.
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Nov 6, 2014 07:41
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If there is anything Man of Steel, Desperate Housewives, and Twister taught me is that nobody knows how tornados work and people assume they are sentient creatures working for a higher darker power.
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Nov 6, 2014 07:49
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Isn't that scene a flashback, and so anything unusual can be put down to a product of Clark's memory?
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Nov 6, 2014 07:52
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Isn't that scene a flashback, and so anything unusual can be put down to a product of Clark's memory? It is a flashback, but there's nothing to indicate that it's not 100% accurate. Normally if they want to put in some kind of ambiguity like that there's some kind of indication, either in plot or visually. The story, of any of the flashbacks, is never, even slightly, contradicted, and visually it looks like the rest of the movie. I did like MoS, though I will admit it's a very flawed film. I think that twistedmentat's list pretty much covers my thoughts on it too. I'm also hoping that the rest of DC's movies flesh out the universe and make MoS shine by showing the character evolve from a hero just finding his feet to, you know, Superman, but I am rather wary.
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Nov 6, 2014 09:33
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mr.capps posted:If there is anything Man of Steel, Desperate Housewives, and Twister taught me is that nobody knows how tornados work and people assume they are sentient creatures working for a higher darker power. Yeah I find it kind of silly that the tornado in MoS gets singled out when it's behaving like literally every tornado ever depicted in movie history. Except the one with sharks in it, I guess. Maybe people wouldn't complain as much if Pa Kent had been smashed by a flying shark or cow?
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Nov 6, 2014 10:44
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mr.capps posted:My biggest problem with the tornado scene wasn't that Superman let him died but that Pa Kent faded into the tornado. Grendels Dad posted:Yeah I find it kind of silly that the tornado in MoS gets singled out when it's behaving like literally every tornado ever depicted in movie history. Except the one with sharks in it, I guess. Maybe people wouldn't complain as much if Pa Kent had been smashed by a flying shark or cow? Maybe Pa Kent and his little dog got transported to the Land of Oz?
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Nov 6, 2014 11:50
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Pa Kent, in the film, is 100% worried about Clark's mental health. Clark is an invincible earth-shattering killing machine who is also - at that point in the story - an impulsive dumbass teen. Kent chooses to die so that Clark can spend many more years growing up and learning the value of humanity. This is what leads Clark to the oil rig and the diner, where he practices saving lives and fighting 'bad guys' - and he's still not happy in those scenes. Humans are still alien to him, and he doesn't understand why his father would die to protect his childhood and a dog. Kent's death being a sort of puzzle is, in other words, the point. It's the mystery that Clark spends half the film trying to solve.* It's only later that Clark learns that he is actually far more powerful than he ever imagined - that he's essentially programmed to be god-king of Earth. This Kryptonian programming is, however, a limitation. Jor-El also chose to die because he could never be anything better than just a Kryptonian. That's where Kent's influence kicks in: Lawrence Fishburne's big scene, obviously evoking Kent's death, is what inspires Superman to overcome the effects of Kryptonite and destroy the Kryptonian world engine. Those are feats that a normal Kryptonian could not do. Put simply, Kent sacrifices his life to create Superman. If Kent had not died that way, Clark would be merely Kal-El.
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Nov 6, 2014 12:55
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SMG that's pretty weak by your normal standards.
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Nov 6, 2014 12:59
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It is what very clearly happens in the film though.
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Nov 6, 2014 13:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Pa Kent, in the film, is 100% worried about Clark's mental health. Clark is an invincible earth-shattering killing machine who is also - at that point in the story - an impulsive dumbass teen. To reiterate just how big of a dumbass teen Clark was at that point, he has an angry "gently caress you, you are not my real dad!" moment just before the tornado hits.
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Nov 6, 2014 13:08
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mr.capps posted:If there is anything Man of Steel, Desperate Housewives, and Twister taught me is that nobody knows how tornados work and people assume they are sentient creatures working for a higher darker power. Well, I think in Twister it was an evil tornado that killed the main character's parents 30 years ago and was now back for revenge; sure, it was allied with the evil meteorologists, wasn't it? Of course, I saw Twister like 15 years ago when I was seven so I can't remember all the details. That might not have happened at all.
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Nov 6, 2014 13:18
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Waterhaul posted:It is what very clearly happens in the film though. *The very first scene on Earth, Clark looks down totally puzzled that this weird, lesser creature that almost died trying to save him. He doesn't understand it. Immediately afterwards, he mimics this character by rescuing the oil workers - but it only makes him depressed. He saved six or seven people, but now he's homeless again. That's exactly what Pa Kent was worried about with the schoolbus and the tornado: Kent's not paranoid about the government. He's worried that Clark will squander his potential on minor superheroics. The entire film is about Kent guiding Clark from 'superstrong drifter who occasionally rescues a person' (aka The Hulk) to 'savior of the entire planet' (aka Superman).
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Nov 6, 2014 13:33
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I've never really made a study of Superman's life in Smallville as originally presented in the comics but I always got the impression that the assumption was "Well he got a good honest traditional upbringing in the heart of smalltown America, of course he's going to turn into a humble wellmeaning force for good." And then he turned into a joke in the 60s, a total dick in the 70s, a poseur in the 90s and the current New 52 version seems to be a cynical burnt-out superpower who pretty much resents taking the time to fight bad guys. 
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Nov 6, 2014 14:00
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Oh good, SMG here to poo poo up another thread.
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Nov 6, 2014 14:29
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Man of Steel was poo poo, sorry for your loss.
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Nov 6, 2014 14:42
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Endless Mike posted:Oh good, SMG here to poo poo up another thread. I'd rather read his posts than these kinds of posts.
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Nov 6, 2014 15:47
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Dan Didio posted:I'd rather read his posts than these kinds of posts. Well too bad you can't get one without the other. It's the SMG cycle.
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Nov 6, 2014 15:48
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Endless Mike posted:Oh good, SMG here to poo poo up another thread. "I am primarily concerned about your mental health, so I will force you to watch your father die in front of you when you could easily save him."
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Nov 6, 2014 15:53
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Kevin Costner dying is the best thing that could have happened to Man of Steel Superman.
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Nov 6, 2014 15:56
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theflyingorc posted:"I am primarily concerned about your mental health, so I will force you to watch your father die in front of you when you could easily save him." Did he have good control of his powers at that point? What if he tried to save the dog and accidentally pulped it? That would mess a person up. 
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Nov 6, 2014 15:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:*The very first scene on Earth, Clark looks down totally puzzled that this weird, lesser creature that almost died trying to save him. He doesn't understand it. Except this is literally the opposite of what happened, with Pa being at best ambivalent and at worst downright hostile to the prospect of Clark helping others if it put Clark at risk.
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Nov 6, 2014 16:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Humans are still alien to him He's still lived here since he was a baby, humans shouldn't be more alien to him then to any one else. quote:It's only later that Clark learns that he is actually far more powerful than he ever imagined It's pretty clear in that scene that he knows he can survive the tornado. quote:Lawrence Fishburne's big scene, obviously evoking Kent's death, is what inspires Superman to overcome the effects of Kryptonite and destroy the Kryptonian world engine. I don't remember Perry and Clark ever interacting until Perry introduces Clark to Lois, do you have a link to this scene? Also, there was no Kryptonite in this movie. quote:Put simply, Kent sacrifices his life to create Superman. If Kent had not died that way, Clark would be merely Kal-El. Actually, it looks more like Jor-el's hologram is what tells Superman to stop being a wandering hobo and actually help us little ants, no Pa Kent's death. Pa Kent just comes across looking like an idiot, and seems to mess up Clark's mental health, until Jor-el shows up.
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Nov 6, 2014 16:38
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Actually, I've changed my mind.
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Nov 6, 2014 17:16
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StumblyWumbly posted:Killing people is a very important learning experience. For a superhero, yeah it kind of is, especially for someone with Kal-El's powers and facing the threat and the choice he was faced with. It comes up all the time in comic book discussion. "Why doesn't Batman just kill the Joker? Why doesn't Daredevil just off Bullseye? Are you telling me Hulk or Wolverine never killed anyone?" and poo poo like that. It's the classic death penalty debate and super-powered people being judge, jury and executioner and all that. Clark was learning how to become Superman, find his place in the world and realize his role. Again, I read the film that he really wasn't Superman until the very end and the whole movie is based around the idea of "what would you do?" What would you do if you had these powers? What would you do if your son did? What would you do if you found a baby in an alien spaceship? Who is your REAL father? Where is your loyalty? To Krypton or to Earth? I thought the movie was great It illustrated Clark Kent maturing into Superman and showed how and the reasons why. edit: I also liked IM2 better than IM3 so maybe I have poo poo for taste in superhero movies. IM3 was just ridiculous. It was comedy. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 6, 2014 |
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Nov 6, 2014 17:40
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fozzy fosbourne posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j7lezDWh4M Right there. 26 seconds. "The dog's still in the car!" "I'll get him" "No, no. I'm a guy in his 60s, bad heart and I'm loving sick of life anyway. I'll get the dog*. You, the guy with actual super powers? Make sure my wife, who would be absolutely crushed, both emotionally and financially, by my death makes it the 10 feet in the other direction to the unquestioning safety of a concrete overpass. I'm going to do this to save a dog*." Pa Kent is either an rear end in a top hat or a total poo poo for brains. EDIT: Beaten on most of this, but eh. I typed it all out. *Don't misunderstand me. I love my dog, and I will do anything sane or reasonable to save my dog's life. Running headlong into a swirling vortex of death is not on that list. Of course, getting the dog out of the loving car would have been step number 1.
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Nov 6, 2014 17:46
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ufarn posted:Elba also worked in harness and in front of a green screen in Pacific Rim. It's very possible the Marvel experience just sucks, like on the set of a Peter Jackson movie. The same article had mentions about how much he hated the green screen stuff in PR, too.
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Nov 6, 2014 17:48
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Hoping to check out Big Hero 6 tonight, anyone had a chance to see it yet? I don't really know anything about it aside from the one trailer I've seen, so I'm pretty hopeful.
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Nov 6, 2014 18:48
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I don't necessarily agree with 100% of SMG's breakdown, but it was an interesting one that asked me to look from a different perspective at a situation I had already made up my mind about. I don't know why you guys are being so salty about SMG popping up in the thread, he/she/they actually put effort into digesting media and having critical discussions about it, which tends to elevate these threads to something better than "press release regurgitation squad." Also, SMG was evidently using "Kryptonite" as shorthand for "handwavey plot gas that lowers Clark's physiology back to what it would be on Krypton, which is functionally the same as handwavey plot rock Kryptonite." No need to be pedantic in your rebuttals.
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Nov 6, 2014 19:00
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Except SMG's break down was super weak and reaching, clearly just being contrarian. We all know how to analyse film and do, SMG acts like a college sophomore who just discovered critical writing and thinks they're a genius.
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Nov 6, 2014 19:04
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CzarChasm posted:"No, no. I'm a guy in his 60s, bad heart and I'm loving sick of life anyway. I'll get the dog*. You, the guy with actual super powers? Make sure my wife, who would be absolutely crushed, both emotionally and financially, by my death makes it the 10 feet in the other direction to the unquestioning safety of a concrete overpass. I'm going to do this to save a dog*." SlimGoodbody posted:I don't necessarily agree with 100% of SMG's breakdown, but it was an interesting one that asked me to look from a different perspective at a situation I had already made up my mind about. I don't know why you guys are being so salty about SMG popping up in the thread, he/she/they actually put effort into digesting media and having critical discussions about it, which tends to elevate these threads to something better than "press release regurgitation squad."
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Nov 6, 2014 19:07
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theflyingorc posted:If making a scene is a superhero movie not stupid requires an extensive analysis, that's actually still really bad (even if I thought SMG was correct). Also true!
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Nov 6, 2014 19:10
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Wasn't there a comic book run about a dozen years ago where 'Pa Kent dies!' for all of about 2 issues, only for him to be wandering around like a jackass and be found rather quickly to undo his death? Maybe that's what he was doing in this film. He's planned this for years, just waiting for a tornado so he could put his vanishing act into action and get away from that kid, that woman, and most of all that damned dog that his family loved more than him...
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Nov 6, 2014 19:11
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Pa Kent possessed cosmic awareness and knew that as the male authority figure he must die so that the oedipal gender cycle could continue.
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Nov 6, 2014 19:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Pa Kent, in the film, is 100% worried about Clark's mental health. Clark is an invincible earth-shattering killing machine who is also - at that point in the story - an impulsive dumbass teen. Okay but did you ever consider not posting this?
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Nov 6, 2014 19:26
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