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Long live our corporate stooges. If you are unfamiliar with Hedges, who is one of the only people speaking the truth these days. Here is some background info on him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges He's also got some sweet youtube videos thrashing elites and the Empire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQky0mTizgY quote:Posted on Sep 12, 2010 TLDR; Corporations control everything, including both parties. Therefore we should not get angry about or invest any energy in the farce of electoral politics. We should instead focus on building economies that exclude powerful, hierarchical corporations. I agree wholeheartedly. I just don't think investment in alternatives is a realistic solution. Unfortunately, it will take severe crisis. Thoughts? Dengue_Fever fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Nov 8, 2014 |
# ? Nov 8, 2014 17:02 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:31 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:
My initial thought is that while he may be right, you're going to get a lot of flack for things like the bolded statements. I actually agree with a lot of your points but I get pretty much instant negative thoughts when someone says things like that. The phrasing is the same sort of thing you'd expect when someone is talking about a cult leader. He's the one who tells the truth... maaaaaan. Likewise the thread title is simply absurd. Corporate Fascism? Yeah, mass corporate control over things sucks rear end, but it isn't Fascism. Fascism is a thing with a real definition, which has nothing to do with what you are talking about. You look just as silly calling it fascism as right wingers do when they scream about SOCIALISM!!!! Oh and you spelled Fascism wrong, which doesn't speak well to your understanding of the subject. I'll have a more substantive reply once I'm not in the middle of my work day. Caros fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 8, 2014 |
# ? Nov 8, 2014 19:11 |
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whatever i liked the part of end of literacy or whatever book he wrote where the big show drags big bossman's dad's coffin behind his car this is real and gently caress all those who think otherwise
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:30 |
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Basically,
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:37 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:TLDR; Corporations control everything, including both parties. Therefore we should not get angry about or invest any energy in the farce of electoral politics. We should instead focus on building economies that exclude powerful, hierarchical corporations. K.. Kyoon? Have you returned to us at last? E: For content, the world is a big place, with many different entities controlling various swathes of it. Your post is coming dangerously close to Bilderberg group conspiracy nonsense. Literal Hamster fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:41 |
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I don't think "fascism" is the word you're looking for. It's an awful specific term. Maybe authoritarianism, if you're really bent on somewhat mischaracterizing the current state of affairs. Or heck, just go with corporatism.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:43 |
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Yeah fascism actually has some kind of ideology behind it. Corporations just want to make money, they don't give a poo poo about ideology unless the owners have an ideological view they bring to the company's outlook.
Darkman Fanpage fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:48 |
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I can see an argument that corporations, in aggregate, have a set of political policies they will tend to pursue, although the waters get kind of muddy when they're incentivized to encourage regulations that fall disproportionately on their competitors.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:50 |
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the decision making process of humans-in-a-group aka society has been totally coopted by this idea we had that organizations which generate money are the coolest thing ever and should have unchecked power. this is something all of us more or less bought into so by resisting it you're resisting society. gg nice try just have fun before you go and try to leave a noble corpse
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:51 |
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I don't think "fascism" is the word you're looking for. It's an awful specific term. Actually, 'corporatism' might be a more specific term to what we are talking about here, but American style 'fascism' is still an appropriate name for our country today. Fascism has goals of radical and authoritarian nationalism. American style fascism is not as overt as its European forms. The authoritarian aspects are slightly more secretive. But the nationalist and mass mobilization aspects are quite clear. Nonstop veneration of troops and hushing of criticism of military policy, along with incessant flag waving in the form of rhetoric.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:08 |
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Darkman Fanpage posted:Yeah fascism actually has some kind of ideology behind it. Corporations just want to make money, they don't give a poo poo about ideology unless the owners have an ideological view they bring to the company's outlook. what if i told you you've been in an ideology the whole time
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:13 |
While I would agree that organizing in your community is generally more important, I don't think this "electoral politics are hopelessly corrupt, don't vote" thing is actually going to accomplish a whole lot on a national level, because it isn't like they're going to suddenly go "Oh man, this 3% of people have stopped voting entirely. We should do something about that." The powers that be will instead just write off that group's interests, and some elements here (such as credit unions) do actually occasionally need to touch base with greater society, if only so they aren't (say) outlawed as illegal banks.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:19 |
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I feel like it's wrong to discourage people who are inclined to post a sinister photo of Obamary. Like, keep going. Keep looking for the truth. But Chris Hedges is a plagiarist though, and we're supposed to run away from that because we have college degrees, and if we read a plagiarist our advisor is going to show up on our doorstep 15 years later like "BITCH I BROUGHT YOU IN TO THIS WORL, I KIN TAKE YOU OUT"
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:23 |
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Caros posted:My initial thought is that while he may be right, you're going to get a lot of flack for things like the bolded statements. I actually agree with a lot of your points but I get pretty much instant negative thoughts when someone says things like that. The phrasing is the same sort of thing you'd expect when someone is talking about a cult leader. He's the one who tells the truth... maaaaaan. Actually, what I said exactly was 'he is one of the only people', not 'the one', there's a distinction there. Thanks anyway. Oh and sorry for misspelling the thread title, a little bit of dyslexia kicking in. Didn't read over it when I edited. I stand by Nader's term 'American style fascism' or my term 'corporate fascism' as a good descriptor for the unifying ideology of the country. The corporations put their logos everywhere, they dominate messaging and propaganda through media and advertising. If you hope to have the privilege to rent yourself out for a living, you better do exactly what they want you to do, you worm, and you better not make any provocative posts on the Internet, either. Through control over money, resources, and messaging, they exert a highly authoritarian hold on American society. And if nationalism (the other part of fascism) serves their needs (as it often does) then so be it.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:26 |
Dengue_Fever posted:I stand by Nader's term 'American style fascism' or my term 'corporate fascism' as a good descriptor for the unifying ideology of the country. The corporations put their logos everywhere, they dominate messaging and propaganda through media and advertising. If you hope to have the privilege to rent yourself out for a living, you better do exactly what they want you to do, you worm, and you better not make any provocative posts on the Internet, either. Through control over money, resources, and messaging, they exert a highly authoritarian hold on American society. And if nationalism (the other part of fascism) serves their needs (as it often does) then so be it. e: to be clear, I mean 'what is wrong with using those terms to describe what we have,' which seems to have significant differences from historical fascism - if the Klan were night-riding to suppress opponents of the Republican Party I would be a lot more sympathetic to the use of the term 'fascism.' Nessus fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:32 |
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I might like Chris Hedges more if he was not Chris Hedges. His writing reminds me of Orwell's essay on bad political writing, in that his writing consists of ready-made phrases that are machine copy and pasted. I just plucked out a random sentence:quote:The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for a horrific right-wing backlash in the absence of a committed socialist alternative. quote:The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for revolt. He's also espousing two contradictory ideas with the same formulation. In the first, the "rot and corruption" is fueling a right-wing backlash in the absence of a socialist movement, in the second, it's fueling a socialist revolt. Sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:40 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:Actually, what I said exactly was 'he is one of the only people', not 'the one', there's a distinction there. Thanks anyway. I didn't mean to imply that your cult didn't have several high ranking people, just that the way you are talking about him sounds culty. Saying "He is one of the only people speaking the truth these days" is an insane sounding statement because it goes towards the conspiracy theory/cult habit of talking about how only your chosen few know the real truth/secret knowledge/whatever. As for your rewording, you can stand by it all you want, that doesn't make it correct. Making up and/or redefining the meaning of words is another cult-like behavior. Don't take it too hard, I'm just bitter after the last Eripsa thread. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you've gone about it so poorly that I simply can't trust you. I will never love again. Caros fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:41 |
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Not to mention rot and corruption aren't very good tinder
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:45 |
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SedanChair posted:Not to mention rot and corruption aren't very good tinder Also SO MANY ADJECTIVES. quote:If we again prove compliant we will discredit the socialism we should be offering as an alternative to a perverted Christian and corporate fascism.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:48 |
I imagine that means perverted Christianity, as in JEEEEZUS versus the guy in the actual Bible who can easily be read as a radical socialist.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:54 |
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Omi-Polari posted:Hah! Well he is a devout Christian isn't he? So he probably does believe there is a wholesome Christianity. I tend to agree with a lot of what he has to say, but he's really not a good orator or writer and tends to use the same statements over and over as shown above. A lot of his lectures are pretty much just reading straight from his books.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:57 |
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Caros posted:I didn't mean to imply that your cult didn't have several high ranking people, just that the way you are talking about him sounds culty. Saying "He is one of the only people speaking the truth these days" is an insane sounding statement because it goes towards the conspiracy theory/cult habit of talking about how only your chosen few know the real truth/secret knowledge/whatever. I hate you you suck, too.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:26 |
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I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:31 |
Dengue_Fever posted:I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:34 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD. Now that's some top-class staying power, right there. I'll miss the updates from you on all the activism and advocacy you're set to accomplish!
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:37 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD. You misspelled fascism in your title for a thread about what you mistakenly believe is fascism because some guy told you it is. Your post consisted of a couple of lines and links involved with you jerking off Chris Hedges, a four year old copy and paste Chris Hedges article from a news site I've never even heard of that involves such important and current political figures as Ralph Nader and then a TL;DR that is essentially "gently caress politics! Lets fix the system!" What did you think would happen? To be perfectly honest I didn't even read the article because your presentation was such garbage I couldn't be assed to. All I get out of it is that I should Dehumanize myself and face to bloodshed. For godssake, the word gets a little red squiggly underline in your title. How did you miss that? Are you actually Chris Hedges?
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:44 |
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Has anyone here read Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism by Sheldon Wolin of Princeton? It's been a few years since I read the book and it's almost midnight so I'll be brief, but it really is a more coherent work on similar thoughts as what the OP is talking about; basically how the triumph of global neoliberalism and the increasing wealth/income disparity has worked to entrench merely a facade of democracy, where the choices are carefully managed by wealthy corporate interests. http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Inc...cy+incorporated quote:Democracy is struggling in America--by now this statement is almost cliché. But what if the country is no longer a democracy at all? In Democracy Incorporated, Sheldon Wolin considers the unthinkable: has America unwittingly morphed into a new and strange kind of political hybrid, one where economic and state powers are conjoined and virtually unbridled? Can the nation check its descent into what the author terms "inverted totalitarianism"? It's been even longer since I've read Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy but from what I remember Schumpeter's vision of late stage capitalism was particularly prescient. Gonna have to bust out some of the old poli sci books. Zeno-25 fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:45 |
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Caros posted:Are you actually Chris Hedges? If the OP was Chris Hedges, the title would have been a copy/paste from a correctly spelled original
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:05 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD. You think this is abuse?? How are you going to take the abuse you get during the revolution?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AB-iLaEisU&t=288s I can see why people make fun of Hedges. His language is so flowery and dramatic sometimes that it's almost over the top. War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning was pretty good though. I usually like reading his stuff.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:14 |
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Nessus posted:What's wrong with oligarchy or plutocracy? Do those just lack emotional pop here, is it that fascism is bad so a bad thing must be fascism? I mean, those are pretty much objectively the case, to the point where if I was asked about the American political system I would say "a plutocracy with representative-democratic elements." I would agree with you, that oligarchy and plutocracy are fine terms to describe the nature of moneyed interests control over government, but I do think that fascism captures the effectiveness and pervasiveness of corporate messaging in particular. A plutocracy implies leadership by few, but it does not necessarily imply domination of the people by a non-stop propaganda machine and near total control over resources and thereby livelihood, I do believe. One of the distinctions in fascism is processing the people toward nationalism with the goal of continued empire. I would argue that most governments, if not all, possess a working plutocracy. The difference between these countries and the modern US is the extent to which national pride, and what follows as willingness to defer to national power and unity above all else, allow the flourishing of totalitarianism through silent acquiescence. Dengue_Fever fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:23 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD. Members of the prevailing ideology believe that their votes mean something and they're really angry that their 'team' lost, so it's unlikely you're going to get anything but democratic handwringing here. Also your thread has already, as of page 1, been coopted/redirected from discussing the topic to arguing about semantics with a bunch of people who are uninterested in engaging the topic but instead drowning it in a pile of poo poo specifically with the intention that you just shut up and go away because you didn't agree to their personal understanding of a specific word's definition. There's also the underlying thought of "the system is fine the way it is now, only minor tweaks are needed." Arri fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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Arri posted:Members of the prevailing ideology believe that their votes mean something and they're really angry that their 'team' lost, so it's unlikely you're going to get anything but democratic handwringing here. Yes, that's true. Thank you.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:36 |
Dengue_Fever posted:I would agree with you, that oligarchy and plutocracy are fine terms to describe the nature of moneyed interests control over government, but I do think that fascism captures the effectiveness and pervasiveness of corporate messaging in particular. A plutocracy implies leadership by few, but it does not necessarily imply domination of the people by a non-stop propaganda machine and near total control over resources and thereby livelihood, I do believe. One of the distinctions in fascism is processing the people toward nationalism with the goal of continued empire. I would argue that most governments, if not all, possess a working plutocracy. The difference between these countries and the modern US is the extent to which national pride, and what follows as willingness to defer to national power and unity above all else, allow the flourishing of totalitarianism through silent acquiescence. I think one other distinction that indicates we are more of a plutocracy than a fascist state is the recent success of several "culture issue" cases. Given the general conservative ideology of fascist states as I understand them, it would seem peculiar that there is widespread decriminalization of marijuana use as well as the seemingly-inevitable legalization of gay marriage nationwide. However, these are not matters that meaningfully challenge economic power, the way that they would challenge (say) religious or cultural power. You could probably make a cogent argument that the wealthy do not really care about these matters, so social progress and organization is not really hindered, except in so far as it could be used to advance other interests; beating the gay marriage drum in 2004 to turn out voters to keep the Iraq money train rolling, but in 2014, not really giving a poo poo. Arri posted:Members of the prevailing ideology believe that their votes mean something and they're really angry that their 'team' lost, so it's unlikely you're going to get anything but democratic handwringing here.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 09:27 |
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When will corporate prejudice against people with faces end?
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 09:36 |
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Isn't Hedges a plagarist?
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 09:36 |
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Xandu posted:Isn't Hedges a plagarist? Yes. JUST LIKE YOU'RE PLAGIARISING SEDANCHAIR'S EARLIER POST. OP, there are lots of great books, and writers, on the topic of the increased corporate control over democratic organisations and indeed the entire institutional framework. Hedges isn't one of them. Carroll's 'The Making of a Transnational Capitalist Class: Corporate Power in the 21st Century' published by Zed Books in 2010 goes into a lot of this, focusing on the influence of 'neoliberal' ideas on changing political and legal approaches to issues such as capital controls, and the role of the company within society. He also does it in a much more academic, thoughtful and intellectually robust way than Hedges does.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 11:43 |
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Zeno-25 posted:Has anyone here read Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism by Sheldon Wolin of Princeton? It's been a few years since I read the book and it's almost midnight so I'll be brief, but it really is a more coherent work on similar thoughts as what the OP is talking about; basically how the triumph of global neoliberalism and the increasing wealth/income disparity has worked to entrench merely a facade of democracy, where the choices are carefully managed by wealthy corporate interests. I've read it, and thought it was excellent. His analysis of the way in which we can arrive, by completely different means, at a place that isn't so different in some ways from traditional totalitarian regimes was interesting, as were the distinctions he drew in terms of the forms their control can take. In fact, Hedges these days tends to reference Wolin's conception of inverted totalitarianism far more often than some idea of corporate fascism. I don't mind Hedges, he's become a bit of a polemicist, and tends to harp on the same stuff and insist too much on strict pacifism (though given his experiences as a war reporter this is perhaps understandable). Frankly I appreciate his criticism of liberals far more than his criticism of the right. I recently re-read War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning, certainly his best work, and it still seems very relevant, especially with what's going on in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 13:31 |
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Oh, I used to be in revolution. :fakes a drink: It's a tough racket.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 13:42 |
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Dengue_Fever posted:I would agree with you, that oligarchy and plutocracy are fine terms to describe the nature of moneyed interests control over government, but I do think that fascism captures the effectiveness and pervasiveness of corporate messaging in particular. A plutocracy implies leadership by few, but it does not necessarily imply domination of the people by a non-stop propaganda machine and near total control over resources and thereby livelihood, I do believe. One of the distinctions in fascism is processing the people toward nationalism with the goal of continued empire. I would argue that most governments, if not all, possess a working plutocracy. The difference between these countries and the modern US is the extent to which national pride, and what follows as willingness to defer to national power and unity above all else, allow the flourishing of totalitarianism through silent acquiescence. I think the issue is simply about refining definitions, I think "Free Market Authoritarianism" is probably a better descriptor simply because Fascism in itself is such a unique form of ideology that is more than simply racist, militaristic and totalitarian state. If anything I think there is a clear divide between Putin's authoritarianism, which is obviously militaristic and socially reactionary versus what is happening in the US. If anything certain types of social progress does happen the US (most of the country has gay marriage now, 4 states and DC have legalized cannabis) but this progress only happens in a very limited framework, basically anything that doesn't cost those with wealth any money. Economically, the country continues to regress even though very specific social causes advance. Most middle-class liberals are silently fairly content with this, and if anything it is still happening in a liberal framework but with a growing undemocratic/authoritarian edge to it. A lot of people sat out of the 2014 election, turnout was 36.5%, not a sign of a healthy sense of democracy. (Btw, 2010 which was far from a robust turnout was 40%. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Nov 9, 2014 |
# ? Nov 9, 2014 14:27 |
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quote:“Poor people do not organize,” Nader lamented. “They never have. It has always been people who have fairly good jobs. You don’t see Wal-Mart workers massing anywhere. The people who are the most militant are the people who had the best blue-collar jobs. Their expectation level was high. When they felt their jobs were being jeopardized they got really angry. But when you are at $7.25 an hour you want to hang on to $7.25 an hour. It is a strange thing.”
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 15:20 |