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Yeah I loved the interaction between Capaldi and Coleman. Coleman I'm gonna miss because as sketchily defined as Clara could be, she brought this great energy.
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Nov 9, 2014 17:09
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The beam comes out of the back of the phone, not the top. Cyber Brig didn't save The Doctor from a moral breach, he just stopped him accidentally vaporising himself like a wally.
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Nov 9, 2014 17:15
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I was sort of hoping that the Doctor and Master would end up going to Gallifrey then the next season would just be them having fantastic adventures being shitheads to each other the entire time.
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Nov 9, 2014 17:17
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The Doctor being President of Earth didn't actually do or accomplish anything, the whole story would have 100% been the same had the Doctor just gone to the graveyard on his own. I don't get this. It was like... the central theme of the episode. It was relevant to Danny's constant criticism of the Doctor as an "officer" who didn't get his hands dirty, as well as the difference between the Doctor and the Master. The Doctor doesn't want to be the officer, or to be the president of earth, or to have control or whatever like the Master thinks -- he prefers to be the idiot with a box and a screwdriver, going around and helping out. In the episode in which he's given control of the entire world's armies, he explicitly says in the climax, "I don't need an army. Never have, except for them" *points to hugging companions*. If he'd "done something" or "acomplished anything" with the world's armies, it would have defeated the whole point of that speech and hosed up the central thematic tension (is he a good man, what kind of a man is he, etc.) EDIT: I liked the episode. Michelle Gomez is amazing. Large segments of that episode were legitimately creepy and messed up (Osgood's death, corpse cybermen stumbling around, the Master at her most entertaining/bananas) EDIT 2: the Master actually wasn't lying - Gallifrey is at the original coordinates, in some sense. Capaldi Doc will "find it" at the same moment that he plays his part in the 50th anniversary special (which took place at Gallifrey's original coordinates) and while doing so will contribute to what the other doctors are doing, it will also bring Gallifrey back to his (12's) timeline. DirtyRobot fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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Nov 9, 2014 17:18
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I barely noticed the nonsense elements of the plot out of just how utterly amazing the Master fuckery was. I loved it.
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Nov 9, 2014 17:39
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Does this make the Doctor a wifebeater? So much violence against women in this show and they killed a POC too! 
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Nov 9, 2014 17:42
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DirtyRobot posted:I don't get this. It was like... the central theme of the episode. It was relevant to Danny's constant criticism of the Doctor as an "officer" who didn't get his hands dirty, as well as the difference between the Doctor and the Master. It plays into the theme, but is not necessary for the theme - the "I don't need an army, never have, except for them" was about the Cybermen, not being given control of Earth. If anything it undermines the climax as the Doctor rejects an army before he rejects the Cyberman army.
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Nov 9, 2014 17:53
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McDragon posted:Yeah, and Jack should have been practicing a new sort of combat. Like, say, archery. I asked for one thing, Episode. ONE THING. gently caress YOU FOR BLOWING UP ALL OF THE CYBERMEN AGAIN!
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Nov 9, 2014 18:00
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MrL_JaKiri posted:It plays into the theme, but is not necessary for the theme - the "I don't need an army, never have, except for them" was about the Cybermen, not being given control of Earth. He doesn't reach that particular epiphany until he rejects the Cybermen army. When he is given control over Earth he doesn't realize that it is not the army he needs; Capaldi's facial expressions indicate he has some doubts, but he doesn't outright reject them. It's when he sees Danny and Clara together that things click. The fact that he was most directly talking about the Cyberman army rather than all of Earth's armies during that speech is true, but it's also... like... how thematic elements work.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:06
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Missy was an idiot, she should have offered the cyber army to the War Doctor instead of the Eyebrow Doctor. (But even the War Doctor didn't need an army. He didn't even need companions.)
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Nov 9, 2014 18:08
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I liked the Osgood scene, but then I wasn't so attached to the character. It really showed how much The Master loves having total control over people, and how she gets a rise off of subverting their ideals.DirtyRobot posted:I don't get this. It was like... the central theme of the episode. It was relevant to Danny's constant criticism of the Doctor as an "officer" who didn't get his hands dirty, as well as the difference between the Doctor and the Master.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:29
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I finally saw it. I actually think it was incredibly good, although I think the Cyber Brigadier was in poor taste. Michelle Gomez really, really enjoyed playing the Master. It was a perfect mixture of old Delgado/Ainley, Mary Poppins, and manic Simms. She just did an incredible job. Yes, her plan was completely convoluted and made absolutely no sense and seemed designed just to be especially cruel to the Doctor, but that's pretty much the Master's MO. I'll miss Danny, who is probably my favorite not-companion companion the revival has had, and I like Twelve's discovery that he was just "an idiot with a box and a screwdriver, learning." It's really a shame that the chemistry between Clara and the Doctor only just started working really well, because it's obvious that Jenna Coleman is leaving after Christmas, at this point. I really hope they're able to get Michelle Gomez back at some point. Like yeah, I know she was cyber-destroyed by the Brig or whatever, but it's the Master, she can come back. I hope next time her plans are slightly less Doctor-focused and a bit more just-plain-Universe conquering, although Doctor-obsessed seems to be the dominant Master trait since Simms, so it's not like that's unique to her. Sad goodbyes all around, but definitely one of the better Moffat finales.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:31
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I liked the Osgood scene, but then I wasn't so attached to the character. It really showed how much The Master loves having total control over people, and how she gets a rise off of subverting their ideals. Yeah, I never really cared about Osgood, so I wasn't too upset about The Master killing her. Also, I really enjoyed the concept of Cyberbrig and the fact that he's now out there doing... whatever. I was surprised that so many classic who fans in the thread hated it.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:33
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thexerox123 posted:
I wouldn't say that I hated it, I just think it's in poor taste. Nicholas Courtney is gone, let's let the character rest in peace with him. I don't think it's so much the act of rejecting the Cyber-army specifically as it is rejecting his own ego. He refuses to be President of Earth because of his distaste for the military mind and yadda, yadda, he rejects the Master's proposal because he is finally realizing that he's someone who exists on the sidelines and relies on his close personal friends to police his moral compass.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:38
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I will say that that ending was better than what I expected the first time I saw Cyber-Danny - having him take the Cybermen and go off into space to find a new home.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:40
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Bicyclops posted:I wouldn't say that I hated it, I just think it's in poor taste. Nicholas Courtney is gone, let's let the character rest in peace with him. I just don't see the point in that when it takes place in a crazy sci-fi universe where the main character has had umpteen different actors. I'll bet people complained when Hartnell first regenerated, too.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:42
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thexerox123 posted:I just don't see the point in that when it takes place in a crazy sci-fi universe where the main character has had umpteen different actors. After Desmond Llewelyn died do you think it would have been bad taste to have Q in Die Another Day be the corpse of Q in a robot exoskeleton?
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Nov 9, 2014 18:45
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thexerox123 posted:I just don't see the point in that when it takes place in a crazy sci-fi universe where the main character has had umpteen different actors. That's a bit different in my opinion. We're all used to that by now, and except for Hartnell himself and Colin Baker, the actors bowed out and welcomed their successors, passing the torch. The Brig has been played by the same actor since Patrick Troughton and appeared as recently as the Tenth Doctor era, in the Sarah Jane Adventures.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:47
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thexerox123 posted:I just don't see the point in that when it takes place in a crazy sci-fi universe where the main character has had umpteen different actors. The character was utterly inseparable from the actor who'd played him for 25 years, to the extent that when the actor died they had the character die with him and gave him a nice reference as a send-off. Then this episode picks up the character's corpse and starts playing with it like a toy. Do you see why people consider that distasteful?
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Nov 9, 2014 18:47
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DirtyRobot posted:He doesn't reach that particular epiphany until he rejects the Cybermen army. When he is given control over Earth he doesn't realize that it is not the army he needs; Capaldi's facial expressions indicate he has some doubts, but he doesn't outright reject them. It's when he sees Danny and Clara together that things click. But during the period where the Doctor was in command of Earth's armies not a single soldier died because of something he ordered, largely because he didn't issue any orders. If your theme is supposed to be to do with Danny's criticism of the Doctor using people then he would need to, you know, actually use people for it to fit with the theme. If the theme was about greed then someone coming up to the main character and giving him a million quid of their own free will would not tie into the theme very well.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:52
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Maxwell Lord posted:You didn't cotton to how Pink was haunted by shooting a little kid as a direct result of his soldiering? That's actually a large part of what pissed me off, the whole thing was done with a tone of "He has this horrible pain to bear that he can never get over, but HE STILL UNDERSTANDS THE DUTY OF A SOLDIER!" I mean, jesus loving christ the line he goes out on is basically saying "Only a soldier could choose to sacrifice himself to save humanity". Also the constant "Oh, the doctor's a hypocrite, he says he doesn't want these bad things to happen, but when put in this strangely contrived situation where he has to either let a bad thing happen to this dude or let a billion people die, HE CHOSE TO SAVE THE BILLION PEOPLE. WHAT A HYPOCRITE YES GENERAL SIR GENERAL! I've seen his kind before, you can only trust us common men who fight for what's right" It just like... doesn't make any loving sense in the context of Doctor Who , and seems extremely petty? And Clara pretty much personifies a lot of the terrible entitlement issues that abound in the world nowadays, and lies and threatens to make her life as close to perfect as possible, because she DESERVES IT OK JEEZE. If I wanted to watch terrible people argue and fight about how their personal interests and issues were more important than saving the world, I'd be watching political news. I don't need that poo poo in my escapist entertainment. thexerox123 posted:It really wasn't done in a nationalistic way, like, at all. Maybe nationalism was the wrong term, but I'd say it's full to the brim of "Us vs Them/Good vs Evil/One good soldier makes the difference/Your sacrifice is worth it despite the pain" propaganda. Maybe militarism is better? I don't know what it's actually called.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:52
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MrL_JaKiri posted:After Desmond Llewelyn died do you think it would have been bad taste to have Q in Die Another Day be the corpse of Q in a robot exoskeleton? Pierce Brosnan crashes his latest fancy car into the office espresso machine, which begins blinking, squirting some hot espresso onto the counter. Espresso machine (in Lost in Space Robot voice): OH GROW UP, DOUBLE O SEVEN!!
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Nov 9, 2014 18:52
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MrL_JaKiri posted:After Desmond Llewelyn died do you think it would have been bad taste to have Q in Die Another Day be the corpse of Q in a robot exoskeleton? Well it would have fit with the gadget-riddled, slightly camp tone of James Bond, so... no, I wouldn't have minded that either.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:54
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thexerox123 posted:Well it would have fit with the gadget-riddled, slightly camp tone of James Bond, so... no, I wouldn't have minded that either. Jesus christ no it wouldn't
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Nov 9, 2014 18:55
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DirtyRobot posted:I don't get this. It was like... the central theme of the episode. It was relevant to Danny's constant criticism of the Doctor as an "officer" who didn't get his hands dirty, as well as the difference between the Doctor and the Master. Yeah, but it's a dumb theme. Like.... of course the Doctor doesn't want to be an officer or president or whatever, that's been established pretty much every season. I mean, the whole Demon's Run thing? Big revelation about how oh no he's the kind of guy who can raise an army and that's not what he set out to be? Hello, yes that just happened a companion ago! Why do we need another season built around showing us how much the doctor wants to be an idiot in a box, when that's already thrown at us all the time? I would way prefer to see Capaldi actually doing new stuff instead of confirming that yes, he is still Doctor Who yet again!
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Nov 9, 2014 18:56
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So, we're all pretty much in agreement that Clara will be back for the Christmas special, right? After all that talk from Santa Frost about how "she's not okay and neither are you" and "you can't let it end like that," there's no way there won't be one more grand adventure.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:56
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Jesus christ no it wouldn't One of James Bond's most popular villains is a dude with a metal jaw who can chew through steel cable. It's not that far a cry, depending on the execution. Bicyclops posted:it's uh... kind of stupid. Wouldn't want to be kind of stupid in a franchise that has a character named Pussy Galore and a character who kills people by throwing a hat. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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Nov 9, 2014 18:58
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In fact, they gently set up Cleese to take over and did a really good job having him play the apprentice and then use the signature line to indicate that he had taken over the role, which is sort of the equivalent to what Kate Stewart is. If Cleese had needed to be saved by a resurrected corpse computer Q, that would more of an equivalent, and it would not have been good. Besides being more disrespectful, it's uh... kind of stupid.
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Nov 9, 2014 18:59
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thexerox123 posted:One of James Bond's most popular villains is a dude with a metal jaw who can chew through steel cable. It's not that far a cry, depending on the execution. Your only argument seems to be about whether it's mechanically possible in the universe. That's an interesting definition of "tasteful".
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Nov 9, 2014 19:01
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surc posted:Also the constant "Oh, the doctor's a hypocrite, he says he doesn't want these bad things to happen, but when put in this strangely contrived situation where he has to either let a bad thing happen to this dude or let a billion people die, HE CHOSE TO SAVE THE BILLION PEOPLE. WHAT A HYPOCRITE YES GENERAL SIR GENERAL! I've seen his kind before, you can only trust us common men who fight for what's right" It does seem particularly dumb in that Danny chose to exactly what the Doctor wanted/needed him to do anyway. What was the difference?
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Nov 9, 2014 19:01
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Your only argument seems to be about whether it's mechanically possible in the universe. That's an interesting definition of "tasteful". No, I'm arguing that if you're bringing back a character in a way that fits the tone of the universe, I don't mind that, even if the original actor is dead. ESPECIALLY in a universe that already has actors replacing people in the same role and/or in a universe that could easily explain why a character is back from the dead. Characters very often live on after their original actors pass, it's not sacrilege. (Depending on the execution. And I recognize that some people had issues with this particular execution, I didn't, that's all.) In an episode about having large numbers of the dead come back to life, why wouldn't you want to give Brig a chance to save his daughter, shoot the Master, and get a salute from the Doctor? thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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Nov 9, 2014 19:03
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What I love about Doctor Who these days is that every single episode has something in it that a good quarter of the internet-posting audience will find utterly infuriating. It's part of the show at this point, I think.
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Nov 9, 2014 19:05
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Honestly I'd forgive the weird soldier-fetishization if the season didn't feel like a series of weirdly disjointed poorly-written vinettes that somebody was all "Oh poo poo we have to tie these together!" The season finale would have had more impact if they hadn't done their Shyamalan-ian levels of "A *twist* is coming!" with the promised-land stuff at the end of each episode. If the master had just popped up? That would have been way more crazy. As it was, they'd pretty much managed to set me up to expect it to be boring, which, it turned out was pretty much correct. I don't know if it would have been physically possible for the plot throughout the season to consist of more cliches. It doesn't even seem like they're having fun with the cliches, just going through the motions because yes, these are what these character types should do and say. The whole thing is so disappointing to me because Peter Capaldi would have a moment in an episode, and I'd get all excited thinking "This is it, this is when he really takes his doctor and brings him to the forefront, time to make me care!" And then the moment would pass, and the writing would creep back in between me and enjoyment of the show again. Also I don't know what the hell was going on with the camera work in the season finale. There's some cuts when he's being President that legitimately made me nauseous. I think it's like: Facing the doctor, cut to the doctor's POV, cut to facing the doctor from a different angle, cut to over the shoulder shot of the doctor, cut to facing the doctor again, then cut back to a POV from the doctor, only 3-4 feet lower than the previous POV, while he's been sitting in a single chair the whole time. E: And I swear, I'm done who-hating, this season just ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh could have gone so many places, and instead shat on itself and rolled around in it.
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Nov 9, 2014 19:23
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I really could have done without the Seb squeeing scene. I could have.
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Nov 9, 2014 19:23
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surc posted:Honestly I'd forgive the weird soldier-fetishization if the season didn't feel like a series of weirdly disjointed poorly-written vinettes that somebody was all "Oh poo poo we have to tie these together!" I really didn't see any soldier fetishization at all in this episode. Hell, last week Doctor Who acknowledged that the murder of children is a part of war. I think that is going to leave a lot more of an impact than some vague stuff about duty.
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Nov 9, 2014 19:49
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Martout posted:I really could have done without the Seb squeeing scene. I could have. Talking about Seb, someone who saw an early screening said the revelation of who he was would blow your mind. But he was just a computer interface right? What did he say before he squeed?
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Nov 9, 2014 19:50
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DirtyRobot posted:If he'd "done something" or "acomplished anything" with the world's armies, it would have defeated the whole point of that speech and hosed up the central thematic tension (is he a good man, what kind of a man is he, etc.) While this is true, the point is that narrative the concept of the Doctor being declared president of earth didn't do anything for the story. It existed just to reflect the jumbled, incomplete, poorly handled theme of the Doctor as a leader, but that's literally all it did: existed. The Doctor needed to reject it, try to use it, get angry over it, manipulate it, or just do something with the office. Instead, he sat at a table and vaguely grumbled a bit until the plot caught up with him. surc posted:Honestly I'd forgive the weird soldier-fetishization if the season didn't feel like a series of weirdly disjointed poorly-written vinettes that somebody was all "Oh poo poo we have to tie these together!" Which was a big problem with this season. Every so often they'd just start shouting, "HEY! WE'VE GOT A THEME! DID YOU NOTICE THIS MESSAGE! HEY, CHECK IT OUT!" That's annoying on it's own but it was also handled so poorly (see the Doctor as president of earth) that it was distracting.
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Nov 9, 2014 19:51
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marktheando posted:Talking about Seb, someone who saw an early screening said the revelation of who he was would blow your mind. But he was just a computer interface right? What did he say before he squeed? They have intelligent computers in the Doctor Who universe 
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Nov 9, 2014 19:56
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I don't really see this season as being pro-military. We've had two episodes where a violent human reaction to an unknown entity would have hosed everything up (Kill the Moon, Forest of Night) and two episodes where confused soldiers with bad orders ran amok and killed people (The Caretaker, Mummy on the Orient Express).
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Nov 9, 2014 21:00
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This season's themes have been so slapdash and lovely in their implementation that's it's pointless trying to understand what Moffat was going for. At least another two seasons of this poo poo.
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Nov 9, 2014 21:05
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