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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:A lot of changes that just seem unfun at the moment. It'll probably be better than people are bitching about, but I know I don't want to deal with resource-hogging 3d models. Really? I figured NATO counter were at beast something you could consider neat if you have it, not something that makes or breakes the game.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:30
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Darkrenown posted:My first Paradox game was EU2 right as it was released. I literally played it for 3 days straight instead of going to Uni or sleeping. This is pretty much my experience. Almost exactly in fact; it's just lucky for my Uni studies that I happened to find out about these games on a friday so the three days straight marathon only harmed my social life. I decided to start off in 769AD to give myself the most room to grow. My goal is to do what Justinian attempted in the 6th century, restore the geographical extent of the Roman Empire and dominate the germanic barbarians. Then I can import the restored Roman Empire into EU4 and bring Pax Romana to the Americas  My first attempt went very poorly; Romulus Augustus a Roman with Hellenic religion which did not go over well as Emperor of Byzantium. Most of my subjects considered me a heretic and it was generally a nuisance to get anything done. I remade my character as Greek Orthodox and things have been going more smoothly. I guess it's pretty much impossible to both restore Rome and restore the Hellenic religion 
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Nov 10, 2014 19:31
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e X posted:Really? I figured NATO counter were at beast something you could consider neat if you have it, not something that makes or breakes the game. I don't really care about counters, it was just a made a difference in lagging. As in I didn't lag as much when playing HoI3. All 1 hour I played. 
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Nov 10, 2014 19:32
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:You're right, it must be the over abundance of provinces in the game. We definitely need 300 provinces in France. You're free to dislike HOI and 3D models for whatever reason you choose, but the idea that the performance bottleneck in HOI4 would be the 3D soldier models is just very silly.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:32
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Rutibex posted:I guess it's pretty much impossible to both restore Rome and restore the Hellenic religion It actually is, considering that Hellenic is a dead religion that has no events and can be easily converted.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:33
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You know, I think HoI4 should take a page out of Distant World's book - allow players to fully automate the entire country, while at the same time allowing the player to personally micromanage a single daring commando squad throughout the entire war. Operation Barbarossa? Normandy landings? Who cares, me and the boys are about to stage a one-squad invasion of Norway before the Fuhrer finds out!
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Nov 10, 2014 19:35
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Wiz posted:You're free to dislike HOI and 3D models for whatever reason you choose, but the idea that the performance bottleneck in HOI4 would be the 3D soldier models is just very silly. It's not just the counters-which I don't care about outside of being less laggy-it's adding stuff like cloud cover for fog-of-war, which I know is going to just kill my ability to even play. You add all these neat things to make the game look cooler, but in the end, most people are going to turn that poo poo off to actually be able to play the game.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:36
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:A lot of changes that just seem unfun at the moment. It'll probably be better than people are bitching about, but I know I don't want to deal with resource-hogging 3d models. "podcat on the Paradox forums posted:A counters only view?!
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Nov 10, 2014 19:36
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That's just a lot of gibberish. English please?
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Nov 10, 2014 19:38
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:It's not just the counters-which I don't care about outside of being less laggy-it's adding stuff like cloud cover for fog-of-war, which I know is going to just kill my ability to even play. You add all these neat things to make the game look cooler, but in the end, most people are going to turn that poo poo off to actually be able to play the game. Counters are not going to make your game less laggy unless your hardware dates back to the paleolithic era. Fog can be an issue on older cards, but there's a limit to how old hardware we're going to support. Are your drivers up to date?
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Nov 10, 2014 19:39
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Look can we get this conversation on to something that matters? Podcat- will flame tanks be in 4 or not? You have thousands of purchases hanging on this...
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Nov 10, 2014 19:39
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Wiz posted:Are your drivers up to date? The 8.1 update killed my drivers.  I can't even access them anymore. loving AMD.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:41
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:That's just a lot of gibberish. English please? Counters cost more to make than sprites.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:41
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:The 8.1 update killed my drivers. This is why I only play HoI on the console port. Less hardware frustration issues.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:42
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:That's just a lot of gibberish. English please? Hearts of Iron 3's counters took more system resources to render than the 3D models.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:43
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:The 8.1 update killed my drivers. Then I would say that your graphics drivers being FUBAR is your real issue here, and expecting us to design the graphics of HOI4 around your broken drivers seems a bit... unreasonable.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:44
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Pornographic Memory posted:Hearts of Iron 3's counters took more system resources to render than the 3D models. You sure? Reading the rest of it, I think he means it costs more cash money (since the programmers would need to spend a lot of extra time to make them work.)
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Nov 10, 2014 19:45
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Wiz posted:Changing graphical styles always upsets people who are used to the old style... It's why people scream at the top of the lungs about how bad the map is for every new paradox game, too. Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:Look can we get this conversation on to something that matters? Podcat- will flame tanks be in 4 or not? You have thousands of purchases hanging on this...
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Nov 10, 2014 19:45
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Wiz posted:Then I would say that your graphics drivers being FUBAR is your real issue here, and expecting us to design the graphics of HOI4 around your broken drivers seems a bit... unreasonable. This is my newest computer. My Windows 7 laptop did the same thing, so it's not just my hosed up computer. 
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Nov 10, 2014 19:46
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I guess for me it really depends at which zoom level you switch from counters to sprites. But yeah, being forced to use sprites just feels off. The whole thing brings back some ugly memories from HoI 3 where paradox seemed to grow in love with an idea and implement it without ever stoping to wonder if it is really a necessary and good change (weather system, AI control). I feel like the counter/sprite distinction in HoI is such a core part of the series that it doesn't really need to be changed, it was good as it was. I hope there will be a demo before release, so we can see how it actually plays before buying.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:49
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ArchangeI posted:I hope there will be a demo before release, so we can see how it actually plays before buying. And get the game for free again? Sweet.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm not sure that necessarily follows. Map mods lets people choose a style which they prefer, so it's less about being "used to" a style and more having chosen that style because you think it looks better. Obviously there is some degree of growing accustomed to a certain style, but I think a large part of it rests on a much deeper conviction about what looks good. People scream about the map every game, but a vast majority still use and get used to the default map. I'm willing to put down money it'll be the same with counters/models. I understand the reasons for the 'outrage', and I'm sympathetic to anyone who prefers counters and are a bit disappointed we're not adopting that graphics style, it's the hysterical overreactions that I find tiring.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:51
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ArchangeI posted:I guess for me it really depends at which zoom level you switch from counters to sprites. But yeah, being forced to use sprites just feels off. The whole thing brings back some ugly memories from HoI 3 where paradox seemed to grow in love with an idea and implement it without ever stoping to wonder if it is really a necessary and good change (weather system, AI control). I feel like the counter/sprite distinction in HoI is such a core part of the series that it doesn't really need to be changed, it was good as it was. I'm going to step out on a limb here and say they probably do think their planned changes are good and, if not necessary, reasonable. But that's just a suspicion I have.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:52
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:I'm going to step out on a limb here and say they probably do think their planned changes are good and, if not necessary, reasonable. But that's just a suspicion I have. I really hope that's not what they thought about HoI3 at launch.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:54
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Since both Wiz and Darkrenown seem to be currently active in this debate, I'd like to draw their attention to something that came up over in the Crusader Kings 2 thread. Your recent beta-patch implementation of women no longer being able to call for Great Holy Wars seems to have been received with universal disapproval. Could you elaborate on the reasons for that change? I don't think that females having too many options was something I've ever heard anybody complain about. For example them not being able to hold tournaments at all, even without participating, etc. The general consensus was that playing a queen was like playing a king, just flatly 'worse'.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:55
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Gimmick Account posted:Since both Wiz and Darkrenown seem to be currently active in this debate, I'd like to draw their attention to something that came up over in the Crusader Kings 2 thread. Neither of them work on CKII so they can't answer your question.
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Nov 10, 2014 19:59
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Neither of them work on CKII so they can't answer your question. They don't exist in a social vacuum, though, and work at the same company as the guys who are responsible for Crusader Kings 2. I don't see the problem here? I've reported a bug to Darkrenown before, and it got fixed (THANKS!).
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Nov 10, 2014 20:02
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Gimmick Account posted:They don't exist in a social vacuum, though, and work at the same company as the guys who are responsible for Crusader Kings 2. I don't see the problem here? I've reported a bug to Darkrenown before, and it got fixed (THANKS!). I'm just thinking to the still unfixed tournament bug that keeps getting filed to no avail.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:04
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I'm just thinking to the still unfixed tournament bug that keeps getting filed to no avail. I know, the one about pagan coats of arms that Darkrenown got fixed also took me a few attempts, but I'm hopeful that these reports eventually do get through.  Speaking of tournaments: Fellow poster Another Person made an excellent suggestion post over in the Crusader Kings thread!
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Nov 10, 2014 20:08
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Gimmick Account posted:Speaking of tournaments: Fellow poster Another Person made an excellent suggestion post over in the Crusader Kings thread! That actually has some good ideas in there. And does raise the question of what's the point of tournaments. I just hosted one as an Emperor of the Jews and low and behold the first, second and third winner were three random mooks who had poo poo stats and were Catholic. 
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Nov 10, 2014 20:12
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Wiz posted:Anyone who cares about counters to the point of it affecting their enjoyment of the game is: Perhaps the same could be said of 3D models! Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!
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Nov 10, 2014 20:16
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I've never played a HoI game. I've got DH, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I really like counters in other games because of the amount of information that is easily accessable. In games where OoB is important, I can see a unit's entire organization at a glance, and in games where units can exist at different org levels, I can easily tell if I'm looking at a division or an unattached brigade.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:19
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:That actually has some good ideas in there. And does raise the question of what's the point of tournaments. I just hosted one as an Emperor of the Jews and low and behold the first, second and third winner were three random mooks who had poo poo stats and were Catholic. I don't know how the tournament events are coded because the reformed pagans that I usually end up with don't get them (Why not?), but if they are anything like other early-CK2 events, the coding probably isn't up to modern Paradox standards. Like the Robin Hood event chain, where the game just gives you flat 33% chances on every option I think - Regardless of your martial, intrigue, or other abilities. Maybe the tournaments work the same way and that's why you're getting all sorts of wrong-religion buffoons as winners?
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Nov 10, 2014 20:19
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Gimmick Account posted:The general consensus was that playing a queen was like playing a king, just flatly 'worse'. I'm sure most actual medieval queens would agree with this assessment.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:21
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Podcat acknowledged that sprites sucked in HOI 3 because they never actually told you anything, while sprites were acceptable (and I personally would say on par with if not better than counters) in HOI 2 because they conveyed info as well as the counters did. That's very reassuring for HOI 4 because it hardly matters what the representation is as long as you can find out what you need to know quickly and easily.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:22
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:I'm going to step out on a limb here and say they probably do think their planned changes are good and, if not necessary, reasonable. But that's just a suspicion I have. I'd be with you if I hadn't seen that exact thing happen in HoI 3.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:43
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Rutibex posted:I'm sure most actual medieval queens would agree with this assessment. I understand what you are trying to say (and I agree), but that's not the point that statement was making. Things like not being able to hold tournaments or go on hunts are unnecessary feature removals, even in a highly sexist medieval setting. You'd need to code a different set of tournament events for women (see Another Human's linked post above), but I really don't think that this aspect of the game should be any less interesting from a female perspective, even if you are more socially constrained in your options. Something that also came up was that while Paradox seems to be going in the direction of limiting female rulers' abilities even more, it's the option to do opposite that would be more fun for players. There's no reason why, if the historical Basques and to some extent the Cathars are allowed to choose an absolute cognatic succession system, the highly speculative reformed pagans would be constrained from doing so. With a newly-written creation mythos, you're pretty much reshaping your entire society, anyway.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:44
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Wiz posted:Then I would say that your graphics drivers being FUBAR is your real issue here, and expecting us to design the graphics of HOI4 around your broken drivers seems a bit... unreasonable. Look Microsoft isn't going to fix its own poo poo anytime soon, I think it's time Sweden stepped up to the plate.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:52
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Wiz posted:People scream about the map every game, but a vast majority still use and get used to the default map. I'm willing to put down money it'll be the same with counters/models. Wiz posted:I understand the reasons for the 'outrage', and I'm sympathetic to anyone who prefers counters and are a bit disappointed we're not adopting that graphics style, it's the hysterical overreactions that I find tiring.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:58
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Personally I like the change. The new counter system displays exactly as much information as the old NATO counters(except it groups similar units so it's way easier to actually look at!) so as far as I can tell the only difference is that you get to look at pretty models if you zoom in close enough and you aren't likely to need all that info at that point anyway.
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Nov 10, 2014 21:09
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