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Each race has a pretty well defined schtick for their T1 racial units, but I guess the issue is that there isn't really a phase in the game where you'll be fielding an army consisting of specific T1 racials. Your early game army is going to be your starting stack, bolstered by quest rewards, inn units, and whoever the bandits had tied up in camp. It's workable, but it means you can't really execute on any particular plan for the early game since you can't control your army composition or even what races your cities are going to have. By the time you are ready to start pumping out your ideal units, they probably aren't T1s. Ranged units are better off because they don't have to trade punches with giants to do anything in midgame, they make good cheap wall ornaments, and they tend to have less direct analogues to compete with.
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Nov 11, 2014 18:10
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A mode that lets you select your initial army from a pool of points would be nifty
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Nov 11, 2014 18:11
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I'd also like a less random start, particularly with regard to heroes. Alternatively, Empire Building mode exists, though I suppose its just a slower start. edit: Carnalfex posted:There certainly is a "starting army power" option but it starts with several units and only goes up from there, all the way to having tier 3s. whoops, yeah that's what i meant. a!n fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 19:32
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Empire building just means it takes longer to get your production running and you can't replace losses, so you are at even more at the mercy of inns and random quest/combat rewards for units. MoM just started everyone with just a couple scouts, you had to build whatever army you wanted yourself. It also had a lot more potential for roaming aggressive units since pretty much every conquerable site could spawn something if left alone long enough, though it never really got out of hand since an individual site didn't really spawn units very quickly and higher end stuff took a long time to come out. This meant you really had to decide where to go with your troops and it was much more difficulty to ignore defense to go all-in on offense. You couldn't just drive around stomping everything into the ground from turn 1 and your main character wasn't represented as a respawning hero unit, further reducing your early game power. There certainly is a "starting army power" option but it starts with several units and only goes up from there, all the way to having tier 3s. I see people clamoring for events and city defenses pretty often, and Triumph has obviously heard that with what has been added in golden realms and will be with the upcoming expansion. I think it mostly stems from people wanting there to be more to the game than just "build army, get it to enemy capital without them seeing or feint them away with a small army attacking somewhere else, win". People talk a lot about diplomacy and alignment needing work, which is fair, but it seems to all fall under that main issue in general. The best way to win is to find the enemy capital and smash it as fast as you can while the other guy is distracted. While that will always be true, people seem to really like ways to encourage players to consider alternative actions. Meteor storms, angry undead hordes, and the like can certainly make all-in offensive strategies much more dicey even if you're sure you can take on the other guy. Defensive options worth using would also mean more potential for protracted gameplay. Improvements to alignment and diplomacy and the like really only matter if the player has a reason not to be punching the other guy in the face every turn, after all. Perhaps a defensive building only available in a throne city (or included with the throne itself) would be an interesting idea? It would certainly help the poor sad AI from getting so easily decapitated as it spams expansions, and would mean pvp strategy would encourage more maneuvering for advantage before the big climax.
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Nov 11, 2014 21:06
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I find empire building too boring and slow, but the prebuilt roads and easy target neutral cities in a regular start make it too easy to expand rapidly for my liking. Something inbetween would be neat. I guess you can fiddle with some of the options to add fewer roads/neutral cities/etc., but I haven't tried that yet. I kinda wish combat was a little less deterministic too. The fact that all attacks hit (like in Civ V, say) and that there's a fairly narrow range of damage means that the only real randomness is in how the AI reacts... which is usually not especially cleverly. Also injured units deal 100% damage, which makes it like D&D/XCOM, but unlike Civ V, where injured units deal less damage unless you're Japan. I think it would be interesting to have the option to have injured units deal less damage. Maybe make single-sprite units go from 100% damage at full health, to 50% near death, and give the multi-sprite (mostly tier 1 units) a boost in base damage in exchange for dealing 0% damage near death. Or maybe that would ruin game balance, I don't know.
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Nov 11, 2014 21:15
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Carnalfex posted:I see people clamoring for events and city defenses pretty often, and Triumph has obviously heard that with what has been added in golden realms and will be with the upcoming expansion. I think it mostly stems from people wanting there to be more to the game than just "build army, get it to enemy capital without them seeing or feint them away with a small army attacking somewhere else, win". People talk a lot about diplomacy and alignment needing work, which is fair, but it seems to all fall under that main issue in general. The best way to win is to find the enemy capital and smash it as fast as you can while the other guy is distracted. While that will always be true, people seem to really like ways to encourage players to consider alternative actions. Meteor storms, angry undead hordes, and the like can certainly make all-in offensive strategies much more dicey even if you're sure you can take on the other guy. Defensive options worth using would also mean more potential for protracted gameplay. Improvements to alignment and diplomacy and the like really only matter if the player has a reason not to be punching the other guy in the face every turn, after all. Perhaps a defensive building only available in a throne city (or included with the throne itself) would be an interesting idea? It would certainly help the poor sad AI from getting so easily decapitated as it spams expansions, and would mean pvp strategy would encourage more maneuvering for advantage before the big climax. A Town Portal ability sending the leader stack to the capital placed in an auspicious location in the tech tree would shift the desirable strategy to reducing the opponents maneuverability instead of landing a killing blow. It would also enforce a clash of large forces which will help bring games to a climax. The capital would still be a desireable target since you would force your opponent back which might allow you to attack him from another angle.
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Nov 11, 2014 21:19
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a!n posted:A Town Portal ability sending the leader stack to the capital placed in an auspicious location in the tech tree would shift the desirable strategy to reducing the opponents maneuverability instead of landing a killing blow. It would also enforce a clash of large forces which will help bring games to a climax. The capital would still be a desireable target since you would force your opponent back which might allow you to attack him from another angle. Also if you win the battle you've both taken their throne city and killed their leader if they recalled, thus totally ending the game for them in one battle
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Nov 11, 2014 21:31
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a!n posted:A Town Portal ability sending the leader stack to the capital placed in an auspicious location in the tech tree would shift the desirable strategy to reducing the opponents maneuverability instead of landing a killing blow. It would also enforce a clash of large forces which will help bring games to a climax. The capital would still be a desireable target since you would force your opponent back which might allow you to attack him from another angle. I thought that was actually in the game, just way too high / random in the tech to matter?
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Nov 11, 2014 23:05
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That's a sorcerer spell. It'd be nice if there was something like it for all classes.
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Nov 11, 2014 23:35
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A pop back to throne spell would be more useful on production classes than on summoners since it would mean a quick way to improve the army, something summoners can do already. This might be why the devs only gave it to the sorc to begin with honestly. Anyone could use it to shave off travel time just to get around, we've all had annoying moments when you go one way with your army only to have a quest pop up with a tantalizing reward on the other side of your empire. If it only worked when an enemy was in the domain of the city, or someone was at war with you, that might be a way to limit it to purely being a defense spell that would be relatively equal to all classes. The sorc could even keep the (current) improved version that doesn't have such downsides. If some kind of panic recall was added that was purely defensive it would fit better as a built in part of the throne, a UI option, rather than a researchable neutral spell. Otherwise it would fall prey to the randomness of the tech RNG, not to mention it would be a useless spell and waste of research up until the moment that you are under threat, and when an army is at your doorstep you aren't likely to have the research and casting points to take it from book to active immediately. Maybe have it be inherent in the throne, but with a downside, or limited uses? Or simply a hefty cooldown, so an enemy can try to feint and bait you into wasting it? It might not even need a cost if that was the case. It would certainly go a long way to helping the newer players that always end up with teary eyed stories of leaving their capital unguarded or not scouting enough, or both, and getting booted out of the game right away by bandits or somesuch without changing the overall gameplay. Two players that both have decent scouting intel will have a general idea of each other's movements and will move to counter each other, and that option to pop back to base is something they can factor in with the feints and dedicated pushes. The usual "feint on an expansion, then hit capital, if they don't defend expansion then just take it instead" would still be totally viable. Such an ability would also work well in conjunction with the upcoming random event system - an aggressive player would have a bit more chance to retreat and solve issues popping up at home, while the defending player might be able to stall long enough that a problem elsewhere will convince the bully to leave. Both players end up feeling like they have more of a chance to influence the game.
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Nov 12, 2014 00:02
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Well Warlords has the "March for loss of health" thing. Perhaps the other classes could have their take on it? Archdruids make the selected stack consider all terrain equal in movement cost. Theocrats frenzy their followers, increasing damage taken but making them go faster. Rogues could "extract" from cities to cities, like Sorcerers but limited from being anywhere to the throne. Dreadnaughts build railways that only that dread and their allies can use, of course.  All of this should have its appropriate costs. Dreads and Rogues could pay an upkeep to have such an "empire" wide upgrade, both in gold and mana. Make it a city upgrade that connects back to the capital or other similarly upgraded cities, in the case of rogues its a very expensive end tier building and only one stack can teleport per turn. Dreadnaughts get it sooner but its something that needs to be installed and is infrastructure, so it can be blockaded and destroyed. I'd go as far as suggesting a "Railway builder", but i think thats making it complicated for no gain. So a city upgrade should suffice. Theocrates and Archdruids pay in mana, but have the advantage of it being a duration and thus not dispellable. Warlords is an "aura" and thus maintained by mana. Thyrork fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 00:41
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That would certainly add some interesting flavor and diversity to the idea of mobility, although it is totally the opposite of being a simplistic neutral defense oriented solution available to any player. Definitely cool ways to add movement abilities to classes and maintain different themes to it though.
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Nov 12, 2014 02:09
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Using the ability to reinforce an army would not be problematic as it doesn't actually save any time. The fun factor of the ability hinges on making it expensive enough so it can't be used repeatedly.
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Nov 12, 2014 11:33
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What about an expensive-ish building with a prerequisite like a grand temple or observatory? It'd teleport in a single stack from anywhere in the map, then destroy itself and have to be rebuilt. That'd ensure it being an investment, and would let you defend any core city, but it'd have very little offensive use.
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Nov 12, 2014 11:42
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Sounds like it'd be a nightmare for the AI though, players can take much greater advantage of powerful mobility
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Nov 12, 2014 13:45
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Having it require a high building tech would mean it wouldn't be available until late in the game, and only if the player is building lots of buildings and not units. If the recall ability was just baked into the throne, available turn one, with a hefty cooldown (20 turns?) it would work for any class, any playstyle, any game settings. It also wouldn't need any other cost associated with it since the cooldown alone heavily discourages using it except in an emergency, so it wouldn't change current gameplay at all by requiring players to bank resources to use it or find it in the research book etc. edit: It would also be easier to code the AI to be able to use it, since it only needs to think about it if the throne is under heavy threat, which already makes it want to pull back and defend. Just a bit of code added in that same AI thought function of defendbase(thronebase) or whatever, making it use the teleporter, would do it. It might be a little easier to bait the AI into using it early compared to a player, but that is true of everything about fighting an AI. You beat it by outplaying and outsmarting it, while it gets an economy bonus to stay competitive. If it was smarter than the player at a strategy game no one would want to play against it, since you'd often lose and it would always be entirely the player's fault for playing a less than perfect game. People like feeling smart by overcoming long odds. I would actually love to see an AI setting that was smart enough to play aggressively though, for one single reason. The tears that would come flowing from all the official forum posters that hate multiplayer and think a total lack of human interaction is the ideal form of entertainment would sob themselves to sleep as their self image of being the world's next napoleon was shattered over and over. Carnalfex fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 17:28
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This single player campaign is awful. I can't believe there's even a route split that just leads to more capture 50 towns on an obnoxious map.
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Nov 12, 2014 17:57
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Cheat, im not even kidding. Some of the post-split missions are good but it gets painful regardless. If you feel funny about it, the way i look at it is this: Did you play the mission fairly and lost? Play again. Did you loose again? Cheat mildly (give yourself a gold boost) and go from there. Thyrork fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 22:45
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Honestly I just ignore the story campaign and feel like I got my money's worth from the randomized map generator. I do like some of the premade scenarios on the workshop that still feel like a pretty standard RMG game, but just handcrafted to ensure people start with certain nodes or to throw some kind of risk/reward strategic options on the map. Sulanar's stuff on the workshop is pretty good, even if you want to play alone you can just put an AI in your team buddy slot. I like that the game has gimmicky scenarios that don't play like a standard game, story included, but I don't really feel that it is main attraction compared to standard 4x gameplay. The campaign basically boils down to knowing what the gimmicks are of each scenario are ahead of time (by losing or looking it up) and then abusing that knowledge you should never need to have. Also delaying victory once you've stomped out any real opposition to get absolutely every scrap of exp and items for your heroes since they carry over through the campaign, making each mission that much easier if you thoroughly abuse it in extremely gamey ways. Cheating works too, as Thyrork mentioned, but if you're just after the story you can probably just skip the levels with a cheat code I think? Or just ignore it and play RMG / multiplayer.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:26
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I just wanted to see what they were like after playing so many random maps. It felt odd to have like 100+ hours in this game but never even open the campaign, heh.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:27
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Thyrork posted:Cheat, im not even kidding. Some of the post-split missions are good but it gets painful regardless. Anyone have links to the pre/post mission cutscenes? I want to see how the missions I didn't play go down without doing any more slogging, and all I can find on YouTube is in-mission gameplay and some of the endings.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:14
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You could also just play it on Easy, too. As for the cutscenes, you can find some of the artwork on Deviantart but I have no idea where to find complete scenes.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:24
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I think nothing short of skipping chapters or a cheat with infinite move points is what the doctor ordered. It's not that they're hard, even on hard, it's just there's soooooooooo much ground to cover with your OP heroes and hordes.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:40
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I actually liked the campaign for the most part, but the last few missions really do drag on forever. I ended up cheesing most of them in the end. The Sundren and Sulthor Missions thankfully can be crushed by Rogue endgame being hilarious, and I managed to do the final Commonwealth Loyalist mission in something like 80 turns but holy poo poo do I never want to play that map ever again. The Torchbearer final missions are designed to be cheesed with your uber heroes, once you understand the gimmick they can be beaten very quickly with a little bit of luck. The Halfling Campaigns are more fun to play and not nearly as grindy, but they are a pretty big step-up in difficulty. (You will be pincered by powerful enemies on every map. No exceptions.)
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Nov 13, 2014 14:39
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Edited to expand on my thoughts: Pretty much what Madmac said. The campaign is certainly worth doing regardless because its a fun and entertaining plot with well built levels, but the second you get frustrated enough to want to close the game down, cheat outrageously. DONT use the skip level or the "give me EVERY SINGLE SPELL" cheats tho, the first makes you miss out on the fun in-level dialogue and hidden gems, the latter is unbelievably cluttered. The RMG and the pre-build scenarios is where the real meat of age of wonders is to be found. This isn't a dig at the campaign at all, I just enjoy the other parts more, always have. This is why i liked the halfling campaign too. It was the right size and the right challenge without feeling like a painful slog. Thyrork fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 15:08
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So for random events I would *love* to see something similar to the interactive raiders from sins of a solar empire. Maybe an elder dragon shows up, demands tribute from everyone, and after a few turns makes a list in order of least to greatest of who gave the most money and sends his angry dragonflight after people in that order, cheapskates feeling the pain first. For an extra hilarious prisoner's dilemma bonus, have the power of the armies grow with the total tribute recieved, so the more players try to dick each other over the worse it gets (this is also how it worked in sins).
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Nov 13, 2014 20:22
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Or, let the existing dwellings be the ones who demand tribute. One of them elevated to stand as a substantial threat that makes demands as the game goes on. You will pay the Fae lords of Summer tribute, or their legions of pixies will descend upon you. 
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Nov 14, 2014 01:14
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That would be brilliant! Dwellings are a bit too easy to conquer/bribe as it is, so that could make things interesting while making the strategic choice of trying to grab one into a much bigger deal. If you bribe/conquer it early, even though it might be costly and hard to hold, you could stop it from turning into a threat later. I like it. Good idea. edit: New dev journal! http://ageofwonders.com/improving-race-variety-starting-perks/ I have to say I'm thrilled to see the dev team continue to improve little quality of life stuff like tooltips as well as be open to tweaking and reworking systems. Anything can be improved with iteration, and some devs get hung up on their "ideal vision" so much they aren't willing to think about possible changes. I know stuff like this might not be as exciting to some players compared to shiny new content but I personally love digging into a good game and tweaking/modding the heck out of it. Seeing the devs embrace change on both big and small scales is great! Carnalfex fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Nov 14, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 07:37
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Oh hell yes, butchers are back. Also, I saw people talking about alot of T1/2 units obsoleting too quickly. Would the game still work if there was an option have tech limits? Like, nothing above a certain tier is available to be built/summoned, so you just have big slugfests with basic infantry and cavalry, or whatever. Maybe high tiers can be found in inns or given as gifts still. I always though the campaigns should work like that, like every other strategy game I can think of, but the current way works too. e:Actually, evolve might break that kind of system a little. ColonelMuttonchops fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 15, 2014 02:16
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It's cool to see them making racials more distinctive, but there's still the issue where the class/race overlap and the grab-bag nature of early game armies means that racial unit themes see limited time in the spotlight. That defensive strike ability on Dwarven infantry is going to be outrageously powerful maybe beyond what the developers are anticipating. It means you can use Dwarven infantry to make a flanking attack that turns the enemy around without provoking a retaliation (which is often preferable to trading blows directly with larger foes, even at 3:2 or even 2:1) while also putting them safely in fortified stance for the next turn. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 15, 2014 02:29
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Now that you mention it, that IS powerful....but dwarves are the one race least able to exploit it with their slow units. If it is only something that goes on, say, the tier 1 sword and board infantry, then it wouldn't be a big deal. You won't be doing much flanking with them. It will certainly make them feel more stalwart, though. Maybe not have the ability available if they go into red movement? That way they can still use it to tank but not to flank.
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Nov 15, 2014 05:29
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I'd like to see a game option that cranks up the spawn rate of hostile independents. One thing I liked about civ4 is that with mods you really had to fight to leave your cities into the wilderness. Having the constant threat of a stream of independent bandits/undead/naga possibly coming out of the forest/blight/ocean is what I like. It also gives you a potential meat grinder to train your archers on.
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Nov 15, 2014 07:27
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The way the Defensive Strike is framed, attacking once then going into guard mode, it should be a costly investment. It almost entirely removes the cost of being out of position when attacking. Being slow is one thing but ranged attacks fall off big time if you're not within whacking range and it's not too hard to funnel the enemy or put obstacles between you and ranged units. The damage trade could potentially be significant. Which units get it will be a big deal, deepguard or boar riders getting it would give them an edge over other racial equivalents. Then again, Victory Rush stacks nicely with Fast Healing on orc scoundrels who snowball quickly with corrupted killers. Class units could end up with Defensive Strike too... I just hope there'll be clear-cut situations where it's simply not feasible to use Defensive Strike or require prioritising spells on your units over nuking. It should really make Swap or AP restoring skills more appealing to players. Quick Dash is already nice to add another backstab but I don't get any mileage from Killing Spree or Revitalise. On a broad note, I think it's awesome that there will be more distinctions between races and specialisations. Converting nodes to stack your research? High elf sorcerors are going to love that!  I always liked how in Civilization that different civs or leaders were geared towards certain playstyles (or whose defining advantage was being flexible) which is another layer on top of the ways to build up bonuses for units or tiles. I'll admit I was hoping something like this would happen too.  My idea was capstone global bonuses (like virtue 'kickers' in CBE or the skill tree in Borderlands) for researching an entire specialization and achieve two things - providing another factor to consider in your leader loadout but also empire bonuses which can complement going wide and using racial units + early class tech than rushing to tier 4. It'd allow adept specialisations to be more relevant and let master specialisations do special things alongside their gimmick.
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Nov 15, 2014 07:54
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quote:Certain Dwarven units, on the other hand, have been given the Defensive Strike ability, which allows them to make a melee attack and then immediately go into guard mode. This ability plays more into the Dwarven character of a slow and steady approach, carefully demolishing ones foes while keeping oneself safe at the same time.  Oh god, if that works on Dwarven Crusaders...
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Nov 15, 2014 12:02
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Lobsterpillar posted:I'd like to see a game option that cranks up the spawn rate of hostile independents. One thing I liked about civ4 is that with mods you really had to fight to leave your cities into the wilderness. Having the constant threat of a stream of independent bandits/undead/naga possibly coming out of the forest/blight/ocean is what I like. It also gives you a potential meat grinder to train your archers on. This sounds cool and fun, I'm on board. We already have the option in the map generator to decide how many aggresive camps are created but not how much of a threat each one is. In practice it might not work so well since the game is designed to be over generally within a certain timeframe, and bandit spam delays that by slowing players from expanding/ attacking so much, needing more garrisons, or diverting to smash more camps. It would ensure the game went to a higher tech level than it would otherwise, which is fine for Civ since the game has like.....20 tech levels? AoW has 4, and it very much based around encouraging players to murder each other. In Civ, a great many mechanics are in place specifically to discourage players from murdering each other. I do like the idea, though, and it wouldn't hurt anything to have it as an option. The new event system might give us more options along this line as well, since at least one event they've revealed spawns angry units. Actually, come to think of it, this could be repurposed into a full on coop game mode similar to what warlock 1 had. The idea was that demon portals would start appearing and popping progressively more powerful units out, accompanied by messages to the players about the world shaking and burning, etc. Allowing portals to remain open would actually change the terrain permanently around it (like the aow terrain elemental mastery spells) to a burning hellscape that hurt all playable races but healed demons and removed all economy bonuses from the tile, even causing negative income, as well as spawning more demons. Closing portals by moving friendly armies onto them did not undo the damage already caused, but did move up the demon's aggression to spawn more powerful units from the portals until eventually the big boss was spawned, and beating him won the game for the players. This gave players a choice to delay confrontation if they needed to build up at the cost of future problems as portals continued corrupt the world and more portals would appear, or rush to destroy them as fast as possible to preserve the world but risk more powerful enemies showing up. Carnalfex fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 15, 2014 14:37
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Lovely to see some more Goblin love with the Butcher unit. Looks excellent.
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Nov 15, 2014 15:55
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Thyrork posted:
You know it will. Although lets give the Orcs some credit. An offensive focused melee unit often only gets one good charge off in any given fight, anyway. Orc Berserkers popping Warcry before bumrushing your Leader is going to result in a lot of tears. I love the flavor text for the new Butchers. The image of a bunch of Skewers going "gently caress this weakass poo poo" and looting the ancient Goblin Armories for some real weapons is just fantastic. I wonder what other old units might make a come back? This is going to be the best expansion. Still want Frostlings/Tigrans back, though.
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Nov 15, 2014 16:37
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If the new butcher is tier 2, did something get demoted to tier 1 make space for it?
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Nov 15, 2014 16:47
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Rabhadh posted:If the new butcher is tier 2, did something get demoted to tier 1 make space for it? I don't believe so- I think they're mixing things up a little bit to promote racial asymmetry. They will get rid of the skewer, though.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:08
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Have we seen a foraging ability before? Heal some HP when ending a turn on a certain terrain I assume.
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Nov 15, 2014 18:04
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