|
Some Numbers posted:Okay, fair enough, but I'm still confused as to why we're trying to kludge in a fourth timeline. What does the four timeline model account for that the three timeline model doesn't? It accounts for a Trunks who went back in time but never encountered Cell. The fourth timeline is the one he went back to.
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:09 |
|
|
Are we saying that the Trunks who gives Goku the medicine and the Trunks who trains with Vegeta and fights are from different timelines? Because that's literally the only thing I can think of that makes a fourth timeline necessary and only if you squint really hard.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:48
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:Are we saying that the Trunks who gives Goku the medicine and the Trunks who trains with Vegeta and fights are from different timelines? Because that's literally the only thing I can think of that makes a fourth timeline necessary and only if you squint really hard. I think what's being suggested is the following. Trunks #1 grows up in an original timeline (Timeline #1) where Goku defeats Mecha-Frieza. The androids come and kill everyone, prompting him to go back to a separate timeline (Timeline #2) we never see and warn people of the Androids. When he returns, he's killed by the Cell that becomes Perfect Cell. Trunks #2 grows up in a similar timeline (Timeline #3) to Trunks #1 but returns and kills 17, 18, and Cell after training with Vegeta in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Trunks #3 is from the main DBZ timeline (Timeline #4) and is the one from the Buu Arc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:51
|
|
|
In the DBZ we all watched they're the same guy. But there's another Trunks who gave Goku his medicine (and may have trained with Vegeta) but didn't fight Cell. In other words: Both versions of Future Turnks go back in time, presumably both kill Frieza and give Goku his medicine. Both versions of Trunks go back to the future for three years. Both versions of Trunks return to fight the Androids. Trunks A is our Trunks from DBZ. Fights the Androids, discovers a second time capsule, trains and fights Cell. Trunks B is chump Trunks. Fights the Androids, never finds a second time capsule, returns victorious, kills Androids, is killed by Cell.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
I just repeat to myself its just a show and I should really just relax.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
time travel is loving dumb
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:53
|
|
|
See now most punch man cartoons wouldn't ask you to parse theoretical physics to understand it, but that's what makes DBZ special.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 02:54
|
|
|
I love how any kind of timeline chat always devolves into running around in circles reiterating the same thing over and over again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:02
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:time travel is loving dumb This is the greatest truth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:02
|
|
|
Maybe Toriyama was just making it up as he went along and had a tight schedule
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
Clearly 4th timeline Cell decided to screw perfection and instead go on mad wacky time traveling adventures.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:Okay, fair enough, but I'm still confused as to why we're trying to kludge in a fourth timeline. What does the four timeline model account for that the three timeline model doesn't? Think of it less as four timelines and more like two sets of two. When Cell goes back further than Trunks did, the first pair splits off into a second pair of connected timelines (that connection being "Future Trunks traveled between these timelines"). 1: The "original" timeline where the androids blow everything up and a future Trunks travels into the past (timeline 2). Trunks gets killed by Cell after defeating the Androids, and he takes the stolen time machine to timeline 4. 2: The past that Future Trunks from timeline 1 goes to. He learns how to destroy the Androids here and returns to timeline 1. He never encounters Cell, meaning he's woefully unprepared for the ambush awaiting him after he destroys the Androids in timeline 1. ----- 3: Same as timeline 1, except that this Trunks (the Future Trunks from the main series) travels to timeline 4 and returns far stronger than his Timeline 1 counterpart. Both the Androids and Cell from this timeline are destroyed by him. 4: The main show timeline. Cell from timeline 1 arrives 1 year before Timeline 3's Trunks. Wrong androids, Cell games, yadda yadda.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:04
|
|
|
Zonekeeper posted:Think of it less as four timelines and more like two sets of two. When Cell goes back further than Trunks did, the first pair splits off into a second pair of connected timelines (that connection being "Future Trunks traveled between these timelines"). This actually does make some sense, but I feel like it's possible to condense it into three.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:09
|
|
|
There are three timelines of consequence, but considering that the Z-Fighters meet a clearly separate Trunks from the one that is killed and Trunks never teams up with himself in the future, there is a fourth one out there that is never shown. And yes, this talk is becoming very circular and confusing. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:11
|
|
|
You know what, I'm going with the multiverse theory. There's an infinite number of parallel DBZ universes and the Trunks from one came to another and saved Goku. The Cell from a third killed the Trunks from his and happened to come to the same timeline as Trunks. In other words, it was all a big cosmic coincidence that the Cell we saw happened to die the way he did.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:16
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:You know what, I'm going with the multiverse theory. There's an infinite number of parallel DBZ universes and the Trunks from one came to another and saved Goku. The Cell from a third killed the Trunks from his and happened to come to the same timeline as Trunks. And then representatives from 20 select universes were gathered and chosen to participate in a tournament....
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:33
|
|
|
TriffTshngo posted:And then representatives from 20 select universes were gathered and chosen to participate in a tournament.... It explains everything!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 03:49
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:You know what, I'm going with the multiverse theory. There's an infinite number of parallel DBZ universes and the Trunks from one came to another and saved Goku. The Cell from a third killed the Trunks from his and happened to come to the same timeline as Trunks. I mean, this is basically what it is. Trunks doesn't travel in time, he passes into a different universe. Otherwise his actions in the past would create consequences in his future (especially in regards to killing the androids).
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 04:31
|
|
|
Flytrap posted:See now most punch man cartoons wouldn't ask you to parse theoretical physics to understand it, but that's what makes DBZ special. We could move on to cellular biology.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 05:40
|
|
|
Time travel is dumb, but I do appreciate how he used time travel in a story to do something interesting yet didn't rely on it to resolve the story. Nearly every time travel story I can bring to mind devolves into technobabble and 'the rules of time must not be broken because otherwise blah blah blahity' and then they pull a jetpack out of their rear end. I mean I'm sure there are lots that don't, but it feels like time travel is rarely a cool secondary element to do something unexpected as opposed to the crux of the plot. Toriyama never forgets that punch mans is punch mans.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 05:41
|
|
|
From the google search posted earlier, I found this loving atrocious flow chart of events:  Anyone brave enough to do something similar that explains Cell, cause my brain is in loving knots.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 05:45
|
|
|
We give this big a gently caress about time travel rules but Raditz, loving Raditz, moving faster than light is fine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 05:55
|
|
|
dogs named Charlie posted:We give this big a gently caress about time travel rules but Raditz, loving Raditz, moving faster than light is fine. I saw that in Z but I don't remember it in Kai. Anyone know if it was in the original manga? Could just be funimation or ocean or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 06:20
|
|
|
There's nothing in the manga about anyone moving faster than light (not counting Instant Transmission/Teleportation). It's a dub change.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 06:23
|
|
|
Drowning Rabbit posted:From the google search posted earlier, I found this loving atrocious flow chart of events: Why the gently caress would you bother positing that the Trunks who gives Goku his medicine and the Trunks that stays for the rest of the Cell Saga are different people? There is no reason for them to be different. Especially because Trunks goes back to his own timeline at the end!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 06:33
|
|
|
Trying to find a flowchart of my own took me here. http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/dragonball36/main.html Now I'm the time traveler!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 06:45
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:Why the gently caress would you bother positing that the Trunks who gives Goku his medicine and the Trunks that stays for the rest of the Cell Saga are different people? There is no reason for them to be different. They have to be different. Otherwise you are proposing the same Trunks went back to a timeline in which Cell simultaneously existed and didn't exist. I think the main hangup people are having is the way his time machine works. Basically, like was said before, time traveling is the same as creating a new universe, with the link being preserved through the time machine. So, people think that there's no way two separate Trunks can come from the same 'universe'. In reality, there is another way to create a universe unintentionally, and that is what Cell did. (edit: Note that my explanation is my own and not part of the flowchart posted earlier) In universe A, Trunks went back in time to warn Goku, this created universe B, and the time machine made a link between A and B. back in universe A, Cell emerged, killed Trunks, and traveled back to before Trunks did, creating universe C. Here's what the confusion sets in: So people think it's universe A Trunks who goes back in time. That another link is created between universe A and universe C. But that's not what happened. Cell traveling back in time caused the creation of universe D, where our Trunks is from. Cell not only caused C to split from B, but it also caused D to split from A, and it happened when Cell went back in time. So the link established in our Trunks' time machine was between universe C and D. Note that Cell's time machine has an established link between universe A and C. Anyone using it could go to the universe where Trunks and the androids are dead. It used to have a link between A and B, but traveling back further in time creates another universe, so universe B became inaccessible (the link was overwritten). It's simple, really. Dead Trunks time machine A <> B Cell time machine A <> C Alive Trunks time machine D <> C dipwood fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Nov 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:00
|
|
|
I don't think Toriyama has given that particular plot point this much thought in his entire life.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:29
|
|
|
That's not what the flowchart is saying though. It's saying that there are two versions of Trunks and each one went to three different timelines. They went from their future back to give Goku medicine and then crossed each other into a third timeline for the Cyborg/Cell fights. By your own reasoning, that's impossible, because the time machine is linked to a single other timeline. Not two completely separate, parallel and almost identical timelines. Spiritus Nox posted:I don't think Toriyama has given that particular plot point this much thought in his entire life. He's just the author. We're the ones who can dissect his foray into theoretical physics.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:35
|
|
|
I don't care about the flowchart. My explanation was not based off it. I see what you mean now, yeah #2 and #3 should be the same person in the chart, the arrow from #4 should go to #1, not #2, and the arrow from #3 should go to #2, not #1, but again let's not follow the chart, I think my explanation puts the matter to rest once and for all and now the internet can stop talking about it. dipwood fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Nov 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:39
|
|
|
So your explanation is that Trunks-a went from A to B to save Goku and then got killed, but Trunks-d went from D to B to help with the Cyborgs despite having never met Goku? How does that work? The Trunks that shows up after the timeskip has to have gone back in time once before because he's met the gang. Unless your explanation is that Cell's time boom split the timeline such that a single Trunks became both alive to go back in time and already killed by Cell? Because that's as bad as my apparent Schrodinger's Cell.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:45
|
|
|
No no, Trunks-D went to C at the same time Trunks-A went to B. I apologize for this image. dipwood fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Nov 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:50
|
|
|
I think the Trunks who gives Goku his medicine in the main time line and the Trunks who trains are the same. The Trunks from A did warn Goku to create B, but B, as far as this discussion goes, terminated when the androids were killed (presumably still unaware of cell, who did not appear until after Trunks A returns). C is created when Cell does back to before Trunks A visits B. But does C cell still require Trunks A to appear? Trunks A still visits B and returns to A, meaning that the integrity of A and B have been secured to the point of cell by the time C is created. We might even speculate that since at the creation of C, Trunks was dead, there simply was no Trunks to visit C initially, as it's a branch of A->B->A. What happens then isn't exactly clear. I would speculate in that case that imperfect A cell attacked Gero's lab around the time the androids emerged and was mutually destroyed with 16, 19, 20. 17 and 18 might even have been damaged, resulting in somewhat weaker combat performance. Baby cell C would have survived in this scenario. This would mean that, from the perspective of information available to the characters, the Trunks to emerge in timeline C would been functionally identical to Trunks A, except with the androids part of the timeline radically altered. This Trunks goes back in time and creates Universe D, which is our main timeline and in which Cell A still exists because he existed before the point of differentiation between C and D, and Cell A's timeline is still secured because A and B are already safe and independent from any changes in C and D. A is a universe where everyone is dead and cell never returns (because cell never does or desires to return to the future), and B is a universe where imperfect cell emerges to dead androids and living Z fighters, but is never seen on screen. So Trunks C now warns Goku of events functionally identical to the events in universe A, because the differentiation was never experienced by the Z fighters and Trunks of C, 2 androids emerge and Goku dies of heart disease because, despite Cell A, Goku was never warned of his heart condition because no Trunks A in timeline C. Cell A is still present in D, however, as he existed in the timeline before the point of differentiation. So Trunks Cs warning is less accurate than Trunks A, but close enough to start the cell games chain of events going. Once Gohan kills Cell A in Universe D, Future Trunks C is able to return to Universe C, where Cell A is already dead but Cell C is alive and Trunks C then kills the two remaining androids and Cell C. Thus, the Trunks that warns the main timeline Goku (Goku D) is the same as the one that trains, but is different from the Trunks in Universe A, whose Cell A dies in the Cell games in Universe D instead of being killed in a fight with 16 or whatever happened to him outside the purview of the Z fighters in C. Causality is still relatively neat, because the dependencies are all secure. Cell A is secured by the empty A and the already secured contingency of B. Trunks C is secure because whatever happened to Cell A in the C timeline, it did not affect the outcome of his history with the androids, and D is free to play out as it will, with the apparent paradox of extra androids and shifting power taken care of by the black box of whatever happened to Cell A in Universe C, for which I think I offered a plausible explanation (16 would be able to take an imperfect Cell, and Cell would not have been aware of 16, 18, or 19 as records of them were lost by the time of his emergence after Trunks time travel in Universe A. Trunks A might very well have destroyed them upon his return to the future, as only 17 and 18 mattered to cell, and Trunks A never appears in Universe D which we watch. I think that's 4 universes which can plausibly explain the various paradoxes we encounter and leave a single trunks that warns Goku and trains with the Z fighters in both B and D, which have different outcomes because of the branching from A to C upon Cell A's time travel and different methods of dispatching the androids, presumably. Basically, we never meet the Trunks that Cell killed, as he existed in already closed timelines from the point of view of the DBZ timeline. They can have spawned from messing with a single unified timeline in a sequence of time travels, or they could have originated in completely different timelines and arrived in the DBZ timeline coincidentally. It depends on how the time machine works and the nature of universes in DBZ, but, I think, in either case, the Future Trunks in DBZ is from the same timeline for both appearances. The Cell in DBZ relies on a different (already dead) Trunks entirely in order to exist as he is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 07:59
|
|
|
My head hurts. What happens if we posit that the Trunks that Cell kills never traveled back in time? Doesn't that delete a timeline and take us down to three? From the main story's perspective. Some Numbers fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Nov 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 08:09
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:My head hurts. Then he would have been perfect Cell, because he'd have been able to absorb the androids as Trunks would have had no idea/nowhere near the strength to beat them single-handedly. This isn't all that goddamn complicated, you're all just making it seem more complicated.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 09:07
|
|
|
???? How is this confusing any of you? There have to be four universes: Universe 1: The universe without any time travel during the android crisis. Goku dies of heart disease, the androids kill everyone except Trunks. In an attempt to save the world, Trunks travels back in time and inadvertently creates Universe 2, where Trunks kills Frieza and warns everyone about the androids. Trunks goes back home to Universe 1, and then immediately back to Universe 2 three years later in time so he can help them fight the androids. The U2 androids are killed, and Trunks returns to Universe 1 strong enough to kill the androids there as well. But then Cell is born (for the first time ever) in Universe 1, and the Trunks there has never encountered him before (or else he would know to keep his guard up). Cell ambushes Trunks, kills him, and steals his time machine. He uses it to travel back in time (to absorb the androids), thus creating Universe 3, where most of the same events happen as in Universe 2: a Trunks comes to this universe and kills Frieza, warns about the androids, and comes back three years later to fight them. The difference is that unlike Universe 2, Universe 3 has the fully developed Cell (from Universe 1), and he manages to absorb the androids. The Cell Saga happens, and then Trunks returns home. But where does Trunks return home to? It can't be Universe 1, since we know that the Trunks of that universe died fighting future-Cell, while this Trunks kills future-Cell (and we know that time travel in DBZ involves travelling to different universes instead of actually altering the future/past). The only solution is that this Trunks is from a Universe 4. To summarize: - The important Cell is from Universe 1 and travels between there and Universe 3. - We never see Universe 2. - What we watch in the show is Universe 3. - The Trunks we know travels between Universe 4 and Universe 3. - The 'original' Trunks from the unaltered timeline travels between Universe 1 and Universe 2. the main point is that Cell can't have gone to Universe 2 or else there never exists a Trunks that he could've killed to get his time machine in the first place edit: this is something a few of you were misunderstanding above, so let me emphasize: No past timeline ever meets more than one future-Trunks. Universe 2 only ever meets Universe 1 Trunks and Universe 3 only ever meets Universe 4 Trunks. The difference is that Universe 2 Trunks doesn't fight Cell in the past. also, my guess is that this stuff makes sense completely by accident, and that toriyama would probably be surprised that there are more than two timelines Verus fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Nov 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 11:29
|
|
|
Bushmaori posted:I saw that in Z but I don't remember it in Kai. Anyone know if it was in the original manga? Could just be funimation or ocean or whatever. SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza were FTL since King Kai could follow Goku's spaceship but he couldn't follow their battle. Good old Toei. Their additions have done a lot for DBZ. Except in threads where some rear end in a top hat comes in and says "but that wasn't in the manga so it's non-canon." I wonder if Akira Toriyama ever even heard of the term canon?
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 11:50
|
|
|
You guys are overcomplicating the hell out of this whole thing. There's the main timeline, the timeline Trunks came from, and the timeline Cell came from. Cell killed a Trunks and stole his time machine because the Androids were gone. The very fact that this Trunks beat the androids implies that he used it to go to the past and find some way to win, so he must have went to a fourth timeline. Bam, done.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 12:33
|
|
|
Future Trunks and Perfect Cell are from Doomed timelines, there is only one (Alpha) timeline and any time travelling must either result in a causal loop or be the result of a Doomed timeline necessary for the integrity of the Alpha
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 12:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:09 |
|
|
See 80 new posts in a night. Think DBZ abridged or something has been released. Timeline chat. gently caress YEAH. Okay so there are two theories. Theory 1 Timeline 1: No time travel, androids win trunks goes back in time -> Timeline 2: Trunks meets Goku, saves him then goes forward in time -> Timeline 1: Trunks goes back in time -> Timeline 2: The Z fighters, fight the androids win, cell shows up, they beat him. Trunks goes forward in time -> Timeline 1: Trunks kills the androids and cell. But where did Cell come from? Timeline 3: Cell meets and kills Trunks, goes back in time to Timeline 2. But why couldn't the Trunks Cell meets kill him? Timeline 4: Trunks from T3 goes back in time, saves Goku and beats the androids via remote control in both T3 and T4. Since he beats them by remote he never goes Ultra and Cell kicks the poo poo out of him. Presumably a Cell exists somewhere in Timeline 4 but nobody knows what happens to him since Time Travel isn't invented in a world that never saw the Androids destroy the planet. So the weakness of this timeline is that for some reason the Timeline 3 time machine ends up taking you to Timeline 2 instead of back to Timeline 4. Theory 2: Timeline 1: Nothing happens, Trunks goes back -> Timeline 2: Trunks warns Goku and goes forward -> Timeline 1: Trunks goes back -> Timeline 2: Trunks beats the androids via remote control and goes forward -> Timeline 1: Cell is born and Trunks dies, Cell goes back -> Timeline 3: Cell alters the timeline, fights the Z fighters and Trunks. This means there must be another Trunks who comes from: Timeline 4: Trunks goes back in time, warns Goku of Timeline 3, goes back to Timeline 4, then back to Timeline 3, fights Cell and finally goes back to Timeline 4 to kill Cell and the Androids. The weakness of this Timeline is that somehow when Cell goes back he hits Timeline 3 instead of Timeline 2 again. Both theories have the same weakness and both are equally valid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 14:20
|
|
