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Ctrl+F'd Annakie in the Leper's Colony. Zero results. MODS LIED
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Nov 13, 2014 20:26
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Toxxupation posted:i think the tardis is p neat and cool and its p neat and cool that it's alive because that means its a blue phonebox wooden time travellin spaceship that's alive an junk and thats p keen Peachy keen AND neato 
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Nov 13, 2014 21:41
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MikeJF posted:Just because something is sad does not excuse it from having to be narratively satisfying. So you're saying it's badly written because of the fact that... you didn't like it? As a response to somebody pointing out that the writer's goal (It's sad what's happening to donna, feel sad about it) seemed to have been pretty much exactly achieved?
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Nov 13, 2014 22:53
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Zaggitz posted:One more episode until the show comes to you in the rain and tries to apologize about how it's changed for the better and doesn't drink anymore. Oh
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Nov 13, 2014 22:59
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Toxx, here is a Sad Tennant in the Rain to commemorate our difference of opinion on this episode. What I found so frustrating about this episode is how much of a hypocrite Ten comes off as. He acts like he's way better than, say, Nine was, claiming Rose helped him improve, and he looks down on Clone-Ten for killing the Daleks, but he look at the awful poo poo he pulled on the Family, for example. And what's wrong with killing Daleks?
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Nov 13, 2014 23:42
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surc posted:So you're saying it's badly written because of the fact that... you didn't like it? As a response to somebody pointing out that the writer's goal (It's sad what's happening to donna, feel sad about it) seemed to have been pretty much exactly achieved? Case 1: Donna has a choice between her own safety and the fate of the world, chooses the fate of the world. Me: sad. Probable sniffles. "RTD really pulled it off." Case 2: Donna saves the world, then the Doctor mindwipes her while she's begging him not to. Fortunately, Rose is happy. Me: furious. Probable saying of naughty words. "Wow, that was cheap." It's the difference between Lear going mad, surfacing from the madness, and then seeing Cordelia die, versus Lear going mad, Cordelia talking to him as he dies, and then Edgar coming on, tripping on a rock, and twisting an ankle. RTD messed up the dismount.
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Nov 13, 2014 23:45
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surc posted:So you're saying it's badly written because of the fact that... you didn't like it? As a response to somebody pointing out that the writer's goal (It's sad what's happening to donna, feel sad about it) seemed to have been pretty much exactly achieved? No, that's definitely not what anybody's saying.
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Nov 14, 2014 00:06
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Didn't Romana offer to fix it, and he indignantly refused?
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Nov 14, 2014 00:53
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What a time to start reading this thread! I think what happened to Donna is absolutely tragic and miserable, a fate undeserved by a character who deserved so much better. I don't think it's bad writing at all, I don't think it undoes the wonderful development of her character any more than someone's death (fictional or real) means that their life was without meaning. I think the Rose/Ten Again thing is okay, if a little optimistic in terms of "oh I'm sure this unstable variant of a renegade Time Lord won't go completely insane left to his own devices, it'll be fine." I'm not convinced it's very narratively satisfying, and felt more like "oh we have this extra Doctor clone to stash somewhere, let's make him Rose's problem". (Actually, I think I would have unabashedly loved it if that's what Ten had done, complete with them both reacting all NOW HOLD ON JUST A MINUTE.) I don't mind at all Rose getting a generally positive ending, though. Someone probably should. Mostly what I love about this episode, though, the thing that sticks with me when the narrative details inevitably fade as they do when I haven't seen something in a while, is that very last scene of the Doctor starting up the TARDIS. For all the infamy of that crying in the rain image, his OH JUST ABSOLUTELY gently caress THE WHOLE ENTIRE UNIVERSE expression when he's flying off alone, having lost or left behind everyone he's ever cared about a-loving-gain, is what really gets me.
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Nov 14, 2014 01:48
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docbeard posted:For all the infamy of that crying in the rain image, his OH JUST ABSOLUTELY gently caress THE WHOLE ENTIRE UNIVERSE expression when he's flying off alone, having lost or left behind everyone he's ever cared about a-loving-gain, is what really gets me.
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Nov 14, 2014 04:30
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Arsenic Lupin posted:This sums up everything I hate about the worst excesses of Ten: Donna gets rewound, but it's all about his pain. When bad things happen to other people, his emotional focus is often on how much this hurts him, not on how hard it is on the victim. The show can be about the Doctor without making every single dramatic beat about the Doctor's emotional reaction. But in this case, Donna has been rewound. She has no pain. In this instance, it's probably not unjustified because they can hardly show Donna being heartbroken after she's had her memory wiped. I suppose they could have shown Wilf and Sylvia sitting around looking pained after the Doctor left, but other people would find a reason to complain about that.
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Nov 14, 2014 08:54
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Tempo 119 posted:No, that's definitely not what anybody's saying. Cool, thanks MikeJF. I'm glad you could clear up your point for me. I mean, can you imagine if somebody had jumped in to put words in your mouth instead of letting you respond and actually clarify what you were saying with that statement?  "Narratively Satisfying" can range from being a complete bullshit phrase meaning "I didn't like it", to being intended as all hyper-academic-look-at-us-critique-this-art (It's still a bullshit phrase though  ). MikeJF responded to a post which basically said "A lot of people seem to miss that this was intended to be sad" which was in response to a lot of people saying it was a bad ending because it was so unfair what happened to Donna. In MikeJF's response, he said that being sad doesn't mean it doesn't have to be narratively satisfying. In the context of the post he was responding to and the ones *that* post was responding to, it seemed like he might imply that the original people complaining were right instead of the person defending the story/writing was right, and that it's bad because it's unfair what happens to Donna. I totally disagree with that point, and if in fact MikeJF was saying "They're right, and it's a lovely ending by virtue of being sad", I think that is a dumb thing to say. If it is not what he meant, I would be interested in hearing what he actually meant.Which is why I asked him, and not you.
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Nov 14, 2014 17:04
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Sadness sort of has to have a point, though. I'm not sure what we're supposed to feel, besides just sad, about a person losing all of their agency in the form of forced amnesia as a sacrifice to save the world. I guess it sort of hammers Davros's point home, about the Doctor using people as pawns and being self-righteous about it, but that's a really sour note to end a traditionally pretty hopeful show on. I guess if they'd spent a little more time exploring it as a choice for Donna (dying after having saved the entire Universe and seeing a host of incredible things or living a full but banal life without her memories), it could have been meaningful but, again, probably a little too dark for a couple of episodes as bombastic as these two were.
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Nov 14, 2014 17:17
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I mean, the other Big Issue with Donna's fate is that it was involuntary - the Doctor ignored her desires to "burn up", then invaded and manipulated her mind in order to keep her alive. There are questions of medical ethics, bodily autonomy, and yes, even (coded and subtextual) "rape culture" here. I know that accusations of gendered abuse are a bit... iffy, especially coming from someone whose favorite Doctor starred in The Twin Dilemma, but it's still a scene where a Dude ignores a woman's repeated verbal protests and defies her bodily autonomy "for her own good". And then we're asked to sympathize with the Dude.
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Nov 14, 2014 17:23
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DoctorWhat posted:I mean, the other Big Issue with Donna's fate is that it was involuntary - the Doctor ignored her desires to "burn up", then invaded and manipulated her mind in order to keep her alive. There are questions of medical ethics, bodily autonomy, and yes, even (coded and subtextual) "rape culture" here. You know, when it comes to saving her loving life, and she LITERALLY isn't in her right mind due to it being a hybrid of minds? I think I'm going to safely side with the Doctor on this one. Just wish he could have done something else.
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Nov 14, 2014 17:30
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I think if we consider real world analogues or those philosophy textbook what-if scenarios sci fi loves so much, I lean more toward considering it a commentary on involuntary medication for people with mental health issues than gendered stuff, but that's just the problem: if you consider it on any deep level, it's uncomfortable and clumsy at best, and if you want to take the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" interpretation, it's like "Well, okay, but then why is this pointlessly sad ending in the middle of my show about the magic spaceman who made a copy of himself for his ex-girlfriend to pal around with?"
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Nov 14, 2014 17:30
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surc posted:"Narratively Satisfying" can range from being a complete bullshit phrase meaning "I didn't like it", to being intended as all hyper-academic-look-at-us-critique-this-art (It's still a bullshit phrase though If only there was a bit of commentary on this above the post you did your really needlessly condescending reply to, wouldn't that be something ya jackass
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Nov 14, 2014 17:33
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Bicyclops posted:Sadness sort of has to have a point, though. I'm not sure what we're supposed to feel, besides just sad, about a person losing all of their agency in the form of forced amnesia as a sacrifice to save the world. I guess it sort of hammers Davros's point home, about the Doctor using people as pawns and being self-righteous about it, but that's a really sour note to end a traditionally pretty hopeful show on. As for having her memory erased, the vibe I got was that the Doctor believes it's better to live a boring life than die in an exciting way. Do no harm, and all that. I actually don't like Donna's ending but that's in retrospect and for spoiler related reasons.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:12
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2house2fly posted:The point of it is that it's not a total victory, it's bittersweet because the person who saved the universe doesn't get to remember it, or Frodo has to go across the sea, or Darth Vader dies redeeming himself. How many heroic narratives don't have a happy ending that comes with a price? How many of those also have one of the characters losing nothing and getting everything they wanted?
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Nov 14, 2014 18:14
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Would you guys rather have an update this weekend, then two for the next two weeks (1-2-2) or two updates next week and three the following (0-2-3) Also since oxx pointed it out in private we're temp switching to weekend updates over mon/fri updates just because the eps are so long
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Nov 14, 2014 18:19
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MrL_JaKiri posted:How many of those also have one of the characters losing nothing and getting everything they wanted? Han Solo makes it out of the original trilogy pretty well
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Nov 14, 2014 18:21
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Toxxupation posted:Would you guys rather have an update this weekend, then two for the next two weeks (1-2-2) or two updates next week and three the following (0-2-3) My vote is definitely on 1-2-2!
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Nov 14, 2014 18:22
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Toxxupation posted:Would you guys rather have an update this weekend, then two for the next two weeks (1-2-2) or two updates next week and three the following (0-2-3) The latter. For pacing reasons.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:22
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1-2-2 would maximize your suffering, so that. Also devoting one weekend for 2-parter is better than cramming a 3rd episode with them.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:37
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MrL_JaKiri posted:How many of those also have one of the characters losing nothing and getting everything they wanted?
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Nov 14, 2014 18:46
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Toxxupation posted:Would you guys rather have an update this weekend, then two for the next two weeks (1-2-2) or two updates next week and three the following (0-2-3) Another vote for 1-2-2.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:52
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Toxxupation posted:Would you guys rather have an update this weekend, then two for the next two weeks (1-2-2) or two updates next week and three the following (0-2-3) I prefer 1-2-2, so that way I get at least one piece of delicious
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Nov 14, 2014 19:10
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1-2-2 spreads them out nicely.
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Nov 14, 2014 19:16
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Confirmed for 1-2-2, if Occ had brought this up to me first I'd have told him it wasn't even an option. Trying to get out three of these things in one weekend would've given me a nosebleed anyway.
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Nov 14, 2014 19:20
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surc posted:Cool, thanks MikeJF. I'm glad you could clear up your point for me. I mean, can you imagine if somebody had jumped in to put words in your mouth instead of letting you respond and actually clarify what you were saying with that statement? The answer to "So What You're Saying Is...?  " is always the same. I was just trying to save time (like my hero Doctor Who).Edit: I mean if you were really just looking for elaboration then of course I apologise. I'm not here looking to rile anyone up 
Tempo 119 fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 14, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 19:32
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1-2-2 for sure. The pacing is best that way. E: Oh Oxx made this vote irrelevant anyway.
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Nov 14, 2014 19:45
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If only there was a bit of commentary on this above the post you did your really needlessly condescending reply to, wouldn't that be something ya jackass Tempo 119 posted:The answer to "So What You're Saying Is...? I'm a snarky guy, and I think saying "narratively satisfying" is generally a way to say "I didn't like it" but sound more credible and avoid having to give specific reasons, which certainly is why I took the tone I did. I was actually looking for clarification as to what MikeJF meant though, and was hoping he would write some (probably with responsive levels of snark) post explaining in more detail either the reasons he didn't like it, or clarifying that he meant something other than what I thought by narratively satisfying. Also in support of 1-2-2 although it looks like it's already set that way.
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Nov 14, 2014 20:23
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2house2fly posted:The point of it is that it's not a total victory, it's bittersweet because the person who saved the universe doesn't get to remember it, or Frodo has to go across the sea, or Darth Vader dies redeeming himself. How many heroic narratives don't have a happy ending that comes with a price? Those have more of a point by my thinking, though. Frodo's story is more like an average Who companion's in that he has difficulty adjusting to his more mundane life and goes off on another adventure (he doesn't have to go to Elf Heaven, he's just granted passage on the ship and agrees). It's a common facet of escapist fantasy story and serves several purposes, and in Tolkien, although the author would probably deny it, I think it's about adjusting to post-war life. Darth Vader redeeming himself is a villain's redemption story, which is a common one for people who have committed sins grave enough that they would have trouble adjusting to their redeemed lives if they didn't die tragically in a final act of heroism. Donna losing her memory is more like if Sam had to have his memory erased and got sent back to the Shire to spend the rest of his life trying to build up the courage to ask Rosie on a date, only to die alone.
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Nov 14, 2014 21:22
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surc posted:I'm a snarky guy, and I think saying "narratively satisfying" is generally a way to say "I didn't like it" but sound more credible and avoid having to give specific reasons, "Narratively unsatisfying" is different from "bad writing" in that individual lines and scenes may be beautifully written, but the overall impression doesn't work. It can be a string-of-pearls plot, or a plot where a character's mood or characterization doesn't seem to follow a consistent and/or satisfying pattern, or just plain dumb. So, for instance, "Donna has a hero's journey, but at the end of that journey she doesn't choose to accept her sacrifice, but instead is sacrificed by the Doctor" can be narratively unsatisfying. It makes perfect sense logically, it's a reasonable way for the characters to behave, but it leaves the viewer unsatisfied because there's no catharsis. Similarly, Rose getting her magic RealDoll clone is narratively unsatisfying because it's unrelated to both the season arc and the episode arc; it isn't foreshadowed, it doesn't follow naturally from Rose's contribution to the climax. It's just tacked on to satisfy people (presumably including the creator) who want a happy ending for that character.
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Nov 14, 2014 21:50
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I just bought a wii u so if my reviews turn into the words "Bayonetta 2" over and over well, you know why
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Nov 14, 2014 22:15
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Toxxupation posted:I just bought a wii u so if my reviews turn into the words "Bayonetta 2" over and over well, you know why Doctor Who would be much improved if Bayonetta became one of the companions.
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Nov 14, 2014 22:18
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Cheshire
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Nov 14, 2014 22:22
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Toxxupation posted:I just bought a wii u so if my reviews turn into the words "Bayonetta 2" over and over well, you know why What's your NNID? Mine's "Zagreus". I just beat Bayo1 and want someone to rant and rave about it with.
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Nov 14, 2014 22:37
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Toxxupation posted:I just bought a wii u so if my reviews turn into the words "Bayonetta 2" over and over well, you know why You made a good choice
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Nov 14, 2014 22:41
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DoctorWhat posted:What's your NNID? Mine's "Zagreus". I just beat Bayo1 and want someone to rant and rave about it with. I don't have online access right now but when i do i'll hit you up because bayonetta is the greatest thing platinum has ever done and im always willin to talk about it
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Nov 14, 2014 23:03
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