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All of the positive things people are saying about May's character have little to do with her not really being allowed to emote. Ming Na has been in other stuff, so we know she's not robotic in real life. Writing a character who doesn't really emote is generally not a good idea unless they are a robot or an alien. May is a defective LMD of a Kree, YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST. Aika posted:As someone who loves procedurals (and is not ashamed), let me give you a rundown of what I remember. Thanks for this. I dunno. I just feel that the May character could be a 100 times better if they actually let her be human in addition to everything else they are doing. They've shown glimmers of hope, especially when she and Coulson went undercover to the party. I just wish that May could be that human all of the time.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:05
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You guys have issues.
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Nov 16, 2014 01:41
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It's genre television. On a team of spies, one of them is going to be a quiet badass. If it were Triplett or Mac, all we'd hear about, and rightfully so, is how cliche it is for a big, black dude to be intimidatingly stoic. Is May more fun when everyone's terrified of her fake laughter and we get glimpses of who she is when she's not being a professional? Sure. But that's not how it works. The rest of the team is more or less willing to let their guards down around each other, while May is resistant at best, and those fleeting moments we're shown of who she might be when she's not on the clock are more enjoyable because of the contrast that's presented.
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Nov 16, 2014 02:15
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One of the benefits of television over film is that you don't have to cram all of your characterization into ninety to one-hundred and twenty minutes. You can play the long game. You can tease out a character's inner emotions and motivations over weeks, seasons, or even years. In fact, the longer you build up the character, the more satisfying the eventual reveal. May has already shown herself to be more than just a one-dimensional stoic cardboard cutout. Despite a very rocky start, this show has generated enough good will in me of late to give it the benefit of the doubt in terms of their long-term plans for May.
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Nov 16, 2014 03:18
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Agents of SHIELD is not so dense with quality material that it really makes sense to excuse leaving a major character as so one-dimensional into the second season as them just taking their time.
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Nov 16, 2014 03:28
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Or, on the other hand, it is. I'm not saying ABC's Marvel's Agents of Shield is high art or anything, but they've shown that they're willing to take their time (sometimes to the active detriment of the show) and set things up far in advance.
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Nov 16, 2014 03:58
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Phylodox posted:to the active detriment of the show Yes, this is what I'm saying.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:01
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yes, this is what I'm saying. And yet the slow build up ended up paying off. This is a good show now with storylines from back at the beginning of the show paying off now.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:07
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Phylodox posted:And yet the slow build up ended up paying off. This is a good show now with storylines from back at the beginning of the show paying off now. Eh, everything we got at the end of season 1 would have been just as exciting in episode 8. The show has improved, but not in a way that retroactively makes the early episodes better or more necessary, except for the unfortunate requirement of timing things up with the films.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:10
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Phylodox posted:And yet the slow build up ended up paying off. This is a good show now with storylines from back at the beginning of the show paying off now. Nah. They could have easily cut out most of the episodes and you wouldn't have missed much.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:20
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I think it's more that the episodes around those plot points could have been more interesting, but we're getting into semantics. This seems like it's just a fundamental disagreement. I (and others in this thread, I guess) like May. I like that they're taking it slow with her character instead of just infodumping her no doubt tragic reasons for being distant. I think that the gradual approach will be more rewarding. Obviously you disagree. What more is there to discuss, really?
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Nov 16, 2014 04:26
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My point was that she's one-dimensional, with my dislike of this being a secondary concern. We seem to agree about the primary point, and just have a different reaction to that due to you being more willing for the show to save some reveals for later in the run. I'm fine leaving it there.
Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 04:28
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I don't think she is one dimensional. The characterization is subtle and sparing, but it's there. Her warming up to Skye and playing pranks hint at more than just an emotionally stunted badass.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:33
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I wouldn't call her emotionally stunted. She's emotionally restrained, as part and parcel of her bland rendition of the badass spy stereotype. She is, perhaps, two-dimensional: badass spy as mother figure. But she's neither a complexly-motivated character nor an enigma where the questions about her are particularly interesting.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:37
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Every character on the show is some permutation of two-dimensional, though. They're all well-worn stereotypes seen through a pithy, pop-culture obsessed, Whedonian lens. It's a television show based on comic books, I'd be disappointed if it were any other way. Right now May's character is the well-established constant that will eventually be subverted once we get around to having a few May-centric episodes that explore her background and motivations.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:43
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Coulson is a rigidly organized intelligence officer who believes that people can strive to embody a greater ideal, which he defines both through the history of his professional and his admiration of actual larger-than-life heroes like Captain America: rigidly organized, covert operative, idealist, historically minded, hero worshipper. Only one of these is a skillset or profession. Ward is an emotionally damaged double agent that defines himself through his loyalty to another, in a specific attempt to replace the flawed caretaker that was his older brother. And so on.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:53
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And May is a fiercely loyal, emotionally walled-off but secretly compassionate badass with an (also secret) penchant for practical jokes and a cavalier attitude towards sexual relations. I mean...stuff is there.
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Nov 16, 2014 04:58
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Everything there but what's covered by motherly badass is something she does, not something about who she is as a person. Like, I didn't mention that Coulson likes gadgets, but rather his ideals and what he admires.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:14
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Yeah, but Coulson's the main character and has the added benefit of having been in several movies. Most of the other characters are much less defined as well.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:19
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That's fair. I was never trying to suggest that May was the only lousy character on the show. But the point remains that not every character on the show is some permutation of two-dimensional.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:20
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Coulson is the best fleshed-out two-dimensional character on the show, but he's still two-dimensional. He's bascially a combination of "supportive father figure" and "competent g-man" stereotypes with some "embarrassingly enthusiastic fanboy" thrown in for spice. We have no background on him. We don't know why he is any of the things he is. And being thinly characterized doesn't make any of the characters "lousy". In-depth characterization isn't what Agents of SHIELD is about. It's an action/comic book show. It's about whiz-bang action and badass stereotypes. It's certainly not The Wire. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 05:23
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Phylodox posted:"supportive father figure" and "competent g-man" stereotypes with some "embarrassingly enthusiastic fanboy" thrown in This is three things. And leaves out his idealism. And his whole alien-blood-obsessiveness thing. Phylodox posted:It's certainly not The Wire. You don't have to tell me. But, more relevantly, neither is it The X-Files or Fringe.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:27
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Sir Kodiak posted:This is three things. And leaves out his idealism. And his whole alien-blood-obsessiveness thing. The alien blood thing wasn't a character facet, it was a plot point. One which has now been resolved.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:29
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Phylodox posted:The alien blood thing wasn't a character facet, it was a plot point. One which has now been resolved. It was a plot point that affected his character. And, also: the other stuff I said.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:30
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Sir Kodiak posted:It was a plot point that affected his character. And, also: the other stuff I said. I mean..."idealism" isn't in-depth characterization, either? It's just a free-floating character aspect amongst all the other stereotypes. Phil Coulson was a tertiary character in a few Marvel movies and, as of yet, has not yet been developped much beyond that. I'm not saying they won't. I'm sure we'll get Coulson-centric episodes in the future that will explore his past and motivations. But we haven't gotten them yet.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:36
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Phylodox posted:I mean..."idealism" isn't in-depth characterization, either? I described it in greater detail earlier, but, yes, I'm talking relative here. As you say, this isn't The Wire. But I find May to be dull even by the standards of the show she's on, which as you point out is saying something. And, as I said before, some of this is because her particular stereotype isn't one I find particularly appealing.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:39
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Well, yeah, which brings us back to you just don't like her. Which is fine. But it's not because she's necessarily less developed relative to the other characters. She just represents a stereotype you don't care for. Which, again, is fine.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:43
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It's not just that, it's the two together. I found Coulson to embody a similarly unpleasant stereotype in the movies, and early in the show, but I respect that he's developed as a character.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:49
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You two aren't going to do this all through the mid-season break are you? Coz talk about insufferable.
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Nov 16, 2014 06:38
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Yeah you guys could've just agreed to disagree and saved yourselves like a dozen posts each.
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Nov 16, 2014 07:06
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I feel like the conversation has reached its natural conclusion, but I think the point was less to convince each other than to come to a mutual understanding, which isn't served by agreeing to disagree. If that doesn't make sense just let me know and I'd be happy to go back and forth about it for a page or so. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 07:10
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Sir Kodiak posted:I feel like the conversation has reached its natural conclusion, but I think the point was less to convince each other than to come to a mutual understanding, which isn't served by agreeing to disagree. I think you're wrong
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Nov 16, 2014 07:18
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hangedman1984 posted:I think you're wrong I feel I'm probably the best judge of what I would or would not be happy to do, but I'm open to opposing arguments.
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Nov 16, 2014 07:20
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I skipped through the last two pages and I didn't miss anything. So how bout that Ward? P kewl dude, right?
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Nov 16, 2014 08:03
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Strabo4 posted:I skipped through the last two pages and I didn't miss anything. I dunno man, I think he shot that dog
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Nov 16, 2014 09:39
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I'm willing to wager that Ward has shot a dog at some point in his life, probably.
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Nov 16, 2014 11:21
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It was just a Life Model Decoy of the actual dog, who is still alive but very, very, very old.
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Nov 16, 2014 16:51
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I thought he shot May and hosed the dog?
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Nov 16, 2014 17:23
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Error 404 posted:I thought he shot May and hosed the dog? No, may shot him and he hosed her doggy style.
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Nov 16, 2014 17:43
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greatn posted:No, may shot him and he hosed her doggy style. please, if anything May hosed him doggy style
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Nov 16, 2014 17:56
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