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QuantumNinja posted:Let's be real, Gibson is a poo poo writer. His prose is stuffy, and all of his books have a half-dozen pointless subplots that don't matter and really only serve to convolute the plot for some half-assed attempt at deeper meaning. Literally half of his praise in the cyberpunk genre comes from his ability to make up cool-sounding cyberpunk words to describe futuretech. Neuromancer is good, but Count Zero is dangerously close to poor return on investment with an even more convoluted plot, and Mona Lisa Overdrive is almost masturbatory. His short stories, however, are too concise to become super-convoluted, so he's written a lot of great ones, including New Rose Hotel, The Winter Market, Dogfight, and of course Burning Chrome. The whole collection, really. Greg Egan's Axomatic is another great short-story collection, and it has a few cyberpunk stories interspersed. Nah, this isn't a very fair criticism, especially past the first trilogy. He can turn some elegant descriptions: the open to Neuromancer, Bobby's encounter with the ICE, the machines in the boneyard, Chevette's first view through the visor, etc. And like many authors, his prose becomes more smooth and natural as he goes. His plots aren't really convoluted. There may be as many as three or four threads, but he ties them all together in time for his climaxes. Those are sometimes a little disappointing after all the build up ( Spook Country is the big culprit here). Really, his biggest weakness is how he tends to recycle protagonists and antagonists. quote:On the movie front, some other to consider: The Warriors and Escape from New York for ganger vibes; Gattaca and Dredd (2012) for cyberpunk future; Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, for its thematic elements and the discussion about brain manipulation; anf The Getaway, Ronin, Snatch, and The Usual Suspects for "pulling jobs" examples. For television shows: Leverage, though goofy and not at all cyberpunk, is about a bunch of criminals pulling jobs; White Collar, for all its terrible characters and plot, also has several good Faceman crime examples; and Burn Notice, at least the first two or three seasons, has a pretty good "above the law" vibe. On the other hand, I agree with all of these recommendations.
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Nov 15, 2014 21:38
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Yeah, Leverage is pretty chill, and good entertainment if you don't take it too seriously. The producers actually said in an interview that they dig Shadowrun, and the Face/Hacker/Hitter/Sneak group set-up is inspired by the gameplay.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:04
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The best part of Leverage is when they took real life terrible things rich people and/or corporations did and turned them into baddies, but then had to actually tone it down because the real life poo poo was so horrible that audiences didn't believe it was real. Remember that next time you start writing up what a megacorp might be up to.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:21
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PeterWeller posted:We can improve these lists. Don't watch Johnny. It's painfully 90s and embarassing for everyone involved. Read it instead, and while at it, also read "Burning Chrome" which is the titular story in the same collection. Do watch Strange Days and Elysium. Don't read Snow Crash. Stephenson had yet to learn the difference between exposition and rising action, and the novel really suffers for it. Instead, finish out the trilogies started with Neuromancer and Virtual Light. Also, while you're on that Gibson trip, go ahead and read his new one, The Peripheral. Also, consider reading DeLillo's Cosmopolis or watching the recent adaptation. It's weird, but I think I like Gibson's Bridge trilogy better than the Molly trilogy, but yeah, probably read the both. Snowcrash might not be the most expertly written book in the world, but it's a fast read that has some really good moments. Also, I figured not going all-Gibson would be a good plan. I take it that The Peripheral is good? We're just going to have to disagree about Johnny Mnemonic. I forgot Burn notice, Leverage, Escape from New York, Dredd, and The Warriors, but completely agree. I've not seen Person of Interest. I hear good things. We might be getting to the point where this is too many movies and shows. OB_Juan fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 04:40
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OB_Juan posted:It's weird, but I think I like Gibson's Bridge trilogy better than the Molly trilogy, but yeah, probably read the both. Snowcrash might not be the most expertly written book in the world, but it's a fast read that has some really good moments. Also, I figured not going all-Gibson would be a good plan. I take it that The Peripheral is good? It's not weird. The Bridge books are way better, with tighter plotting, more sympathetic characters, and better prose all around. The Peripheral is great, his best work since All Tomorrow's Parties. Don't get me wrong about Johnny. I love it, but it's very mired in the aesthetics of its time.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:05
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OB_Juan posted:It's weird, but I think I like Gibson's Bridge trilogy better than the Molly trilogy, but yeah, probably read the whole things. Snowcrash might not be the best written book in the world, but it's a fast read that has some really good moments. Also, I figured not going all-Gibson would be a good plan. I take it that The Peripheral is good? Juan is totally on point with Johnny Mnemonic, but it really depends on the type of Shadowrun game you want to run. If it's going to be all pink mohawks and exploding cars exploding because their explosions exploded, then you could do worse than Robocop, Johnny, even Virtuosity. If it's going to focus on cool, collected characters all wearing mirror shades and staying five steps ahead of the law, then lean hard into Leverage, Person of Interest or Driver for your inspiration. Warriors is excellent Shadowrun fodder (the game I'm running even has a baseball themed gang run by a toxic shaman called The Baseball Curies) as is Dredd and a bunch of God Damned Anime. Michael Crichton is a GREAT source of inspiration for the crazy projects the Megacorps have tucked away somewhere. Honestly, inspiration can come from literally anywhere (there's an original thought for ya!) and you should figure out the focus and theme of your game first, then fill in the blanks with some appropriate genre films afterwards. Also remember-- Shadowrun isn't just one city with four kinds of people in it; it's a thriving world that didn't stop being ten billion private tragedies and triumphs just because dragons are on the news and your neighbor has pointy ears. The focus of your personal world is that of crime and money but the moment you step away from the Johnson with your orders in hand, you're right back in a world who's first, second, and third-most concerns are Itself and way at the bottom of that list is you with your god-killer gun and price tag on the pope's head. I've always found way more enjoyment in the game when the NPC's act like real people with real problems of their own and not just strawmen for the PCs to kill,barter, or mislead on their way to the goal.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:10
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Couple more good source suggestions. Ghost Dog : Way of the Samurai is great for getting a good look at how a street sam's thought processes work. Seconding the new Dredd movie. It's absolutely what life as a Lone Star officer looks like, complete with a rookie on her first real day on the job and a gang that makes a good match for Seattle's. The Crow, and to a lesser extent City Of Angels are worth watching as well, as they really have the gothic-punk ruined city always in the rain aesthetic down and the soundtracks are great for mood music. It's not exactly on setting, but Gangs of New York is absolutely a good watch as well for how street-level violence and social structures work out. Also, REPO : The Genetic Opera is 100% a Shadowrun movie. How could it not be. A world-spanning organlegging megacorp that owns the populace thanks to the bioware it provides, and a gruesome runner who murders the poo poo out of people who can't pay their bills? Pure Shadowrun.
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Nov 16, 2014 19:06
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Liquid Communism posted:Couple more good source suggestions. How did I forget this? That's one of my favorite movies! Also, there are many Shadowrun games (but the CS-clone doesn't count!). I'd say Deus Ex, Payday/PD2 (pretty much heist.exe), Saints Row 2 (For gang stuff, also Johnny Gat may as well be a runner - later games include a gang called the Deckers.), and Hotline Miami are all good examples of shadowruny games. OB_Juan fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 19:09
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Payday and Payday 2 are very Shadowrunny as well. 4 man team executes heists, often with pink-mohawk level shootouts if they screw up at being sneaky.
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Nov 16, 2014 19:32
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Scissors cut paper wrap stone by Ian McDonald is a pretty nice cyberpunk story about a dude on a pilgrimage that could helpful inspiration for some of the more religious magic traditions. Shadowrun doesn't exactly have mind control basilisk images like the dude in the book, but some mind control magic and psychotropic ICE can come pretty close as far as I understand.
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Nov 16, 2014 19:38
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Liquid Communism posted:Payday and Payday 2 are very Shadowrunny as well. 4 man team executes heists, often with pink-mohawk level shootouts if they screw up at being sneaky. From what I remember of Payday 1, that game was less "often" and more "Literally every mission will turn into this if it doesn't start that way".
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Nov 16, 2014 20:25
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Also, stealth grenades.
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Nov 16, 2014 21:43
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Zereth posted:From what I remember of Payday 1, that game was less "often" and more "Literally every mission will turn into this if it doesn't start that way". Well, how often do your Shadowruns not end in gunplay? 
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Nov 16, 2014 22:18
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Dollhouse, for all of its problems, is a really fantastic show for understanding how skillsofts, personafixes, and the entire Bunraku industry works, as far as inspirational material goes.
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Nov 16, 2014 22:31
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I think Hackers has that perfect naive pink mohawk attitude to throw onto a couple of NPC decker/technomancer kids for your players to put up with.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:51
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My group's started a sort of side plot since one of our regular players has two-weeks-in-a-row stints where he has to work at the times we're playing, so this way we can pause on the main plot. We're using the prime runner rules, with some house rulings like being able to take all 35 karma worth of qualities. So our team is: Hijack, the germophobic technomancer who leaves his house in nothing short of a hazmat suit, he's an elf, but nobody can tell because of the suit. Annie, the ork decker who wears gothic lolita clothing because damnit she can be kawaii just like the humans and elves. Is 9, so teenager mentally/physically. Crocodile, a really cybered up troll street sammy. Is down to 2 essence thanks to all her cyber being alphaware instead of standard. I think she might have 1 Charisma as well. Bloodrain, an ork poser mystic adept who is a wannabe bloodmage Crow, a human-looking elf who is racist against elves while not realizing he is one, professional assassin. Pretty much the only one played even remotely straight. We've been hired to steal a shipment of commlinks...ironically, since this is sort of a flashback in the timeline, this is the missing shipment of commlinks that our main party got falsely accused of stealing that brought us all together.
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Nov 17, 2014 08:38
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So it turns out injection arrows do normal arrow damage plus whatever you inject. Say hello to 12P and 15S narcoject injection arrows!
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Nov 17, 2014 16:07
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taiyoko posted:Annie, the ork decker who wears gothic lolita clothing because damnit she can be kawaii just like the humans and elves. Is 9, so teenager mentally/physically. Is that how it works? I always get conflicting indignation information from people on whether different metatypes reach adulthood at different rates, or if they just age differently once they're adults. Does it ever specify anywhere which it is?
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Nov 17, 2014 17:12
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Shadowrun Wiki page on Orks posted:They grow much faster than humans, reach maturity at the age of 12, and give birth to a litter of about four children, though six to eight are not uncommon. Their average life-expectancy is about 35 to 40 years. She was born as an ork rather than goblinized, so that's what I'm going off of. I assume she'd be less mature if she were goblinized from another metatype, though.
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Nov 17, 2014 20:18
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Liquid Communism posted:Well, how often do your Shadowruns not end in gunplay? The best game I ever ran had combat maybe 20% of runs. And these were runs of four or five sessions each. If you make pre-planning/social engineering an important enough part of runs, and most importantly, allow players to actually succeed at it, even your combat types will be satisfied by not having to pull a trigger. It helps to have plenty of opportunity for leg-breaking outside the actual run itself - leaning on contacts, obtaining gear from criminal sources, etc.
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Nov 17, 2014 21:07
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Kenlon posted:The best game I ever ran had combat maybe 20% of runs. And these were runs of four or five sessions each. The problem I have with this kind of Shadowrun - for my group specifically, mind - is that it leads to 'perfect run' mentality, where players spend hours planning and re-planning and making sure they have three contingency plans. And that's genre appropriate but it means that whenever something unexpected happens (assuming there's even any room for something unexpected happening) the players are more frustrated than excited, since it invalidates their hours of planning. Further it leads to serious quarterbacking. I have multiple players who would rather play than talking about playing and for them the long planning sessions accounting for every conceivable variable becomes very tedious. I imagine the ideal group makes some room for both impulsive and planned play.
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Nov 17, 2014 21:23
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Mendrian posted:I imagine the ideal group makes some room for both impulsive and planned play. Plan the actual run out to the last contingency, let the freeform in while doing all your prep work. Need to observe the habits of the employees? Got to get a hold of plans to the building? Need to collect on some favors to get specialized gear? Lots of room for the players to have to improvise, without letting them just cowboy up to a AAA corp installation and smash 'n grab. One thing about this style of SR is that it does require a different sort of prep work from the GM. To do it right, you have to work out the security on the target pretty thoroughly before the runners even get the job, so that you know exactly what they are planning against. Don't be a dick about hiding stuff to spring on them, but if you set up a good, cohesive layout, then when they skimp somewhere and it comes back to bite them, it tends to feel more fair rather than a "gotcha" moment. This is dependent on your players, though. If they are not into this style of game you'll just frustrate them. EDIT: Also, don't be afraid to tell the players that certain courses of action will have risk - walking into the building using forged management level credentials hacked into place by the decker will get them access to everywhere, but relies on them being able to talk their way past anyone suspicious. Going in on janitor creds means that no one will look at them twice, but when they go into the research labs, they'd better not be seen. If the players know that 'here, here and here' are the places it can go off the rails, then you can have stuff go wrong without making them feel the planning was a waste. Remember, these are professional criminals - they should be able to evaluate what can go wrong with their plan, even if the players can't always. Kenlon fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 22:31
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Some day I plan to play a runner named Scissors just for the sake of hearing the group groan. Might be a more common name than I suspect though.  Mendrian posted:I have multiple players who would rather play than talking about playing and for them the long planning sessions accounting for every conceivable variable becomes very tedious. By the way, is there a general character help thread somewhere? Or even a general sci-fi pnp thread? I haven't managed to find one. Poil fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 23:22
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If you want prep to go fast, here's a tip: Ask each player one thing they've heard the corp is good at (especially if it's outside their niche). Ask players for a general plan, and one thing they're doing to prep. ("I'm going to spoof a call to a pizza place. I'm going to follow their chief of security home and test his response time." Once they've established that, the run's as predicted as it's gonna get.
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Nov 17, 2014 23:47
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From what I've found the way to succeed in PBP is to recruit me and then I do all the planning while everyone else quietly waits for someone else to go "OK AND THEN WE GO TO THE LOCATION"
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Nov 18, 2014 03:13
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ProfessorCirno posted:From what I've found the way to succeed in PBP is to recruit me and then I do all the planning while everyone else quietly waits for someone else to go "OK AND THEN WE GO TO THE LOCATION"  Pretty much
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Nov 18, 2014 03:49
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Few questions: 1) How do you sustain an alchemical spell if it has a sustaining rating? Like, can someone play an alchemist and hand out an Armor spell to everyone without having spent 200k in foci? I've read and reread the alchemy section and found nothing on this. 2) Is there any way to make Missile Mastery not suck? It seems like such a cool power and then you see that it's ACC 3, and that sounds terrible. Why even make a throwing adept if you're scoring a max of 3 hits? 3) I ask this one hoping to stay away from the whole "don't play a technomancer they suck u stoopid noob" conversation. As a technomancer, am I limited to doing hacking things by using technomancer complex forms, or can I still grab traditional programs, load them up in my brain computer, and use those? Edit: 4) I know in 4E there was a 'throwing mastery' type of power that just made all thrown weapons better. Is that Missile Mastery now? Swags fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 14:51
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Swags posted:Few questions: 1) Page 306: "If the spell is sustained, it lasts for (Potency) minutes (or in the case of a permanent spell until it becomes permanent)." 2) Well, you're also throwing things that aren't designed to be throwing weapons, AND you get to choose what type of damage they do, so that seems fair. You get bonuses for actual throwing weapons as well when you take Missile Mastery. 3) You can Submerge (technomancer Initiate) and grab programs as Echoes (technomancer Metamagics), but honestly most of the complex forms serve similar or better functions, because they don't cause OS to accumulate, and there are other Echoes that boost your living persona stats anyway. Basically, no you can't just grab programs.
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Nov 18, 2014 15:14
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Doc Dee posted:3) You can Submerge (technomancer Initiate) and grab programs as Echoes (technomancer Metamagics), but honestly most of the complex forms serve similar or better functions, because they don't cause OS to accumulate, and there are other Echoes that boost your living persona stats anyway. Basically, no you can't just grab programs. Thanks for the 1st two. On the 3rd: So it is not needed for a technomancer to take the Cracking skill group at all? They basically only need the Resonance group and software for threading? Additional question: How hard is it for a technomancer to be a rigger? Swags fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 15:55
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You can still use all the matrix actions without having the programs. The programs are just bonuses. So if you want to personally hack something you need the skills. Alternatively you can dump the skills and have your sprites and complex forms do the hacking for you. Also a little trick you can do if you want access to all the hacker programs is submerge for resonance [virtual machine] which gives you a virtual brain computer with two free program slots at the cost of always taking the extra unresisted damage in the matrix. Edit: Re riggers, depends. Everyone can buy a command console, drones and autosofts and let them do their own thing, but if you want to be the drone/car/whatever yourself, you need to submerge or get the ware for the control rig interface. And you can't use a command console and your living persona at the same time so you can either hack or rig at one time, not both. Except if you submerged for mind over machine, in which case you can hack and be a drone/vehicle whatever yourself at the same time, but still can't use a command console to control a swarm of drones/vehicles at the same time as you hack. And the command console isn't actually necessary for controlling drones but without it you can't hotswap autosofts or command multiple drones with a single action. So if you're fine with a single drone in a single configuration, you can rig with a meta link/cyber deck/living persona just fine. Basically it's messy and depends on whether you want to be the drone/vehicle yourself and whether you want to command multiple drones with flexible configuration or a single one in fixed configuration. Oo Koo fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 18:40
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Oo Koo posted:Edit: Re riggers Doesn't really count as rigging if you're not jumping in, all you can do is remote-control the vehicle. This is important. Without the Control Rig or Mind Over Machine, you're only capable of giving vehicles commands to follow, while a technomancer with Mind Over Machine could potentially usurp your control of it and then pilot it themselves. Or does it take being a device's Owner to jump in? EDIT: Because a technomancer that hacks into security drones and uses them against security forces sounds pretty sweet. Doc Dee fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 04:12
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Well yeah, I just meant that the jumping in part is the only thing actually unique to the rigger archetype and all the drone commanding stuff commonly associated with them can be done by anyone with the cash for drones and some form of device, preferably a command console. So if you're only interested in the drone command part of being a rigger, you don't actually need the control rig. You can even make a "script kid" version of a drone rigger without any actual rigging skills by just carrying around a command console and some drones and letting the pilots and autosofts do their thing. Like you could make a street samurai with a few armed drones following around them, hand out an occasional order like "follow me and engage hostiles" or "shoot that dude" in AR, and really exploit the action economy to murder everything with overwhelming firepower if you were so inclined. A rotodrone with an ares alpha is, what around 10 000y. The cheapest command console that can run both targeting an maneuvering at the same time if you skip noise reduction is 8000y and having both of those autosofts at R6 is 6000y. 6000y more for evasion and stealth, if you want to be able to switch them to stealth mode. For about 35 000-40 000y a street samurai can have what amount to SHMUP options to effectively dual wield assault rifles in addition to what they are carrying themselves. That's around the same price as a R1 wired reflexes and without costing any essence.
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Nov 19, 2014 15:33
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Poil posted:I can relate to that. No combat except for maybe every fifth session? That sounds horrendously boring. Sure every session doesn't need to be a reenactment of Helms Deep in real time but if there's no shooting what's the point in being semi-competent at it? Not to mention all of the gun porn. Some planning is good though. But even spending a whole session doing nothing else sounds a bit dull. It's not that there was only combat in 20% of the sessions - just that things only ended up in gunplay on about that percentage of the actual, final runs. SR, when played straight, is fundamentally a series of heist movies. There's plenty of room for your combat monsters to rough people up/inflict property damage/steal things that are indirectly related to the run itself, but once you're up against megacorp security, starting a gunfight should mean that you've failed in some way.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:25
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Well, it should, but on the other hand, it should be possible to bloody the CorpSec if you're bad enough. Your mileage may vary, but jacked-out mohawks pulling every last stop to kill cops is pretty Shadowrun.
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Nov 20, 2014 00:02
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Oh, good runners should inflict all sorts of damage on corporate security if a gunfight breaks out. After all, they should have the deck stacked in their favor as much as possible. But it's a thing to avoid.
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Nov 20, 2014 00:13
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Kenlon posted:It's not that there was only combat in 20% of the sessions - just that things only ended up in gunplay on about that percentage of the actual, final runs. SR, when played straight, is fundamentally a series of heist movies. There's plenty of room for your combat monsters to rough people up/inflict property damage/steal things that are indirectly related to the run itself, but once you're up against megacorp security, starting a gunfight should mean that you've failed in some way. See, this I disagree with. I mean I get it. AAA corps have the best toys, the best paid employees and hitting a mega's HQ should be like, a legendary feat. But there are a lot of stops short of that and not every run needs to be a heist against a AAA mega with corporate security flowing out of every orifice. Likewise it's not worth it to protect every facility with your best paid security drones. "If a gunfight breaks out, you've failed" means that players perceive any action during a run to be a failure in planning on their part, and I know a lot of groups who would consider that to be sorta bullshit. The excitement of a heist is the stuff that doesn't go off correctly, not all the stuff that happens flawlessly. If I tell a player who likes to plan every last detail that Route A carries heavy risk, he will seek an option that carries less risk, until we've fundamentally reduced all variables to nil. I'm not saying you're having Badfun. I'm just saying that the play you're describing can be horrendously boring for many players. Having all the action take place before the run, followed by a somewhat tense execution, would put some of my players to sleep. I prefer to have every single game be a run (albeit somewhat smaller than a huge heist) and tend to mix elements of stealth, action, and social engineering. If everything except stealth takes place before the run, you're saying something about the place of those characters in the actual execution phase, which should be the most exciting part.
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Nov 20, 2014 08:38
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"If a fight happens you've failed" is the Thief: the Dark Project On Hard Mode version of playing Shadowrun and that's fine if it's what everybody at the table wants but it's by no means a universal trueism or even the way Shadowrun presents its expectation of play (one of the traditional character roles is literally The Guy Who's Good At Fighting). That said there's a grain of truth buried in there which is that barring certain exceptional circumstances you generally aren't being paid more to get into fights during a job. "Hazard pay" isn't really a thing that exists (again, barring exceptional circumstances) which means that there's a bit of an old-school D&D ethos being advocated...if you aren't being rewarded for fighting monsters/corpsec, then there's no real reason to not skip past all that life-imperiling poo poo and just go for the loot. Now obviously there are reasons why the players might want to have some thrilling gunfights and katana duels and a good GM will find ways to accommodate that which aren't bullshit "suddenly 30 dudes pour out of a closet for no reason because MEGACORP" or whatever, but it's not really weird that the "solid pro all ghost run" mindset has continued to find ground with Shadowrun as opposed to, say, D&D which has shifted over the years from discouraging wandering into fights to overtly encouraging it to the point where killing poo poo is basically D&D's raison d'etre at this juncture. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 08:58
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Mendrian posted:not every run needs to be a heist against a AAA mega with corporate security flowing out of every orifice The thing that people tend to forget, especially when thinking of TOP DOG, is that Corporations LOVE to cut huge corners. I work for a corporation you guys have ALL heard of, we have contracts spreading out into several different pies. I was on one contract for a year, and that was ending so they were like, "oh, we'll get you a job, we'll get you somewhere to go, we'll get you a five-week training to get ready for that next poo poo we need you for." A week into to that training, they were like, "Oh, we're gonna switch you over to this project we need people on NOW, you'll be there in two more weeks. One week later (which was yesterday,) they were like, "poo poo, we need people on it NOW, you're out there officially tomorrow." Whatever it takes to save money, a corporation will do it. This corporation I work for, which I guarantee every one of you knows the name of, has one of the biggest insurance plans in the US as a client, and there is such a lack of communication that poo poo like what happened to me will happen regularly. Which reminds me, I feel like you should have actual experience with a corporation to GM Shadowrun.
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Nov 20, 2014 10:12
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Step #1: Read Conspiracy of Fools and The Smartest Guys in the Room. Step #2: Play every megacorp as if they were Enron. Step #3: The players will start to expect that a good plan will only get in the way of the corp loving up so badly on its own that the run pretty much runs itself.
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Nov 20, 2014 10:22
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Tippis posted:Step #1: Read Conspiracy of Fools and The Smartest Guys in the Room. STEP ZERO: ACTUALLY WORK FOR A CORPORATION INSTEAD OF JUST READING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE BITCHING, understand it first hand.
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Nov 20, 2014 10:25
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