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DJ Dizzy posted:Pretty much. I once made the mistake of playing against a taudar list in 6th edition. I never play against eldar/tau anymore if I can avoid it. Haven't played against Tau since 5th ed. But the guy who runs them at my club seems pretty chill about it. I don't doubt they have the same potential to force an unfun game though. A combination of the two armies seems like it would be a brutal beat down. I think maybe if the wave serpent abilities were once per game it would be a lot more manageable, or if they had to pick shooting/survivable at the beginning of the game. But both together is just unreal. Those three transports had more firepower than our main tanks - and were WAY tougher to kill. Even invulnerable war walkers are a huge pain in the rear end (on their own it wouldn't be so bad). Just so much near-invincible stuff to kill.
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Nov 16, 2014 00:59
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SRM posted:A pro tip with Chaos Space Marines is to use the heads from Chaos Warriors - both the modern and old school ones look awesome on CSM bodies. Thanks again for mentioning this - I picked up a box of them today and they really do add even more variety and flavor to the units.
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Nov 16, 2014 01:32
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Sir Teabag posted:Haven't played against Tau since 5th ed. But the guy who runs them at my club seems pretty chill about it. I don't doubt they have the same potential to force an unfun game though. A combination of the two armies seems like it would be a brutal beat down. Well, wave serpents are pretty much the best unit in the game.
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Nov 16, 2014 01:33
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JerryLee posted:This whole thing reminds me a lot of the D&D 3.x splatbook bloat, where you ended up with like two dozen different books that players could pick and choose among for their characters (and DMs could do the same for their campaigns). It was really good if you wanted to customize the poo poo out of your experience, but potentially really bad if you weren't playing with people you could trust, because--much like GW--Wizards didn't really worry too hard about balancing stuff across the range of their game, let alone worrying about stuff that was outside the core line. I don't think it's a good thing for 40K to go unchecked down the same road. I can't agree more. Coming back into the game where I previously played 3rd, people bitched about the tighter lists (and fewer) but having the games were much more balanced and there were fewer one-upmans when it came to rules... That is until the special flavor of SM and Gav Thorpe headed up codex building. We had supercharging BA for example. Rules should be one set per race, and tweak with traits for the variations. Provide a generic merc list to allow someone to customize but treat it in itself like a race.
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Nov 16, 2014 03:35
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Genghis Cohen posted:Yeah, but for whatever reason the tournament scene doesn't seem to draw that distinction - they see it all as a big soup of 40k rules. I agree it's bonkers frankly. LordAba posted:I mostly look at the campaign books that a lot of the formations are in as legit campaigns. Otherwise it would be like going to a historics tournament with WWII tanks versus bows. Though I see your point. It's up to the community to draw that line if GW doesn't (and to honest, why would they if it might cost them sales?). But there's also the fact that the rules for them aren't really linked to the campaigns in any meaningful way; if GW had written things so that the Adamantine Lance (say) had some particular focus within the context of the book it's in, was composed of a specific set of units that were only in that campaign, etc, etc, it would make a lot more sense to only allow it in that context. But that isn't really how they are presented at all- it can be made up of any of several combinations of units, implying a certain level of generality to the formation. Honestly, I think formations and the allowing of duplicate detachments are a mistake. 6E was crazy enough at times, but I think that balancing main + ally detachment (possibly with one or two 'special' ones that allowed you to bypass the normal restrictions) could have been fine. But turning things into a free-for-all of any and every possible combination of units is not only impossible to balance, it's confusing and frustrating to the players, both casual and competitive. There's aspects of it that are good (the unique Force Org Charts that factions get), but I really hope that GW steps away from it as a general model. Sir Teabag posted:Speaking of rules: I'd say 1/3rd of my games have been against Eldar and after this afternoon I just don't ever want to play them again. Well, you clearly had a couple things going against you there- for one, two 1000pt lists are almost always going to be weaker than one 2000pt list, because the paired players are forced to invest twice as much into HQ and Troop units (which, generally speaking, will be disadvantageous.) Added to that the fact that your friend is playing DA, who are... they're not very good by almost any standard and things are looking pretty poor. And then the Eldar player's list had it sounds like a Wraithknight and a pair of Serpents? That doesn't sound overwhelmingly strong on its own, but there are plenty of other good units he could fill 2000pts with, so it's hard to say. It sounds like you did a lot of stuff more or less right (assaulting Serpents, etc), but it's almost always an uphill fight against Eldar. Relying on melee and bypassing their shenanigans wherever possible (such as via the Ignores Cover order to cut down Wave Serpents) is usually your best bet.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:28
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I actually really super loving like Formations, my problem is that there are not enough of them. I think it's a really cool game mechanic. They should make them unique though , 0-1 so that they're not abused plus include a "tax" on them for a small point amount maybe. It's a cool mechanic but it has to be used universally on all the Codexes not just like a few. I don't think even half the Codexes have formations.
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Nov 16, 2014 05:57
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Charging more for hardcover is hilarious when they're all printed in China now. Remember what we were told thirty years ago? "It's a global economy, and using [slave labor] will lower prices!" Not only do prices go up instead of down, but people are being ruthlessly exploited. Lower labor costs, lower taxes, lower material costs... higher prices!  I'd really like to own all the books, too, have for three editions now. Too bad buying from Games Workshop now feels like buying from Walmart.
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Nov 16, 2014 06:00
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It's probably like 1000 dollars or more to own all GW codexes, Data Slates, etc.. it has to be.
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Nov 16, 2014 06:02
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JerryLee posted:This whole thing reminds me a lot of the D&D 3.x splatbook bloat, where you ended up with like two dozen different books that players could pick and choose among for their characters (and DMs could do the same for their campaigns). It was really good if you wanted to customize the poo poo out of your experience, but potentially really bad if you weren't playing with people you could trust, because--much like GW--Wizards didn't really worry too hard about balancing stuff across the range of their game, let alone worrying about stuff that was outside the core line. I don't think it's a good thing for 40K to go unchecked down the same road. The way things are going seems very reminiscent of 2nd edition, where the games had a crazy amount of rules, poo poo was all over the place, and it was almost impenetrable to new players. 3rd edition kind of wiped the whole slate clean and started over, but that was still kind of early in GW's business career, and I don't know if they are in a position to do that again--and even if they are, I doubt they'd want to. They've spent a lot of time and effort keeping this Frankensteinian system alive for 16 years.
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Nov 16, 2014 06:03
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OhDearGodNo posted:I can't agree more. I'm also a 3rd/4th edition player coming back into the game, and I think your memories of balance are probably down to either unconscious player fiat or just rose-colored glasses. Either one is totally reasonable, I just recall 3rd being even more of a shitshow than it is now (the games themselves anyway; organization was certainly easier, although Vehicle Design Rules and Chapter Approved and all of the supplements that showed up had a lot of complexity people forget about). But back when I was playing 3rd, it was literally the only [war]game in town, and now it obviously isn't, so it's much easier to criticize and GW have fewer excuses for not straightening up and flying right. As far as what rules "should" or shouldn't be, defining a "set" is a lot harder now than it was in the 90s, and "race" is just as tricky. If you're saying that there should only be eight-ish factions with no supplements, no incremental updates, and no rules for intermingling, I don't think GW is ever going to have a sufficiently competent design team to make that game better than this one. EDIT: In my perfect world, they'd release rules and act in essentially every other way like Privateer Press, make FOCs generally smaller (similar to Zone Mortalis FOCs), let you take one FOC per 500 points or whatever, have Guard be the only ally/"merc" faction, and reskin Guard to be relatively generic human troops with HQ options reminiscent of the 5th Edition C:SM, so you could take an HQ choice to make them act like Genestealer Cultists or Blood Pact or Cadians or Tanith or Gue'vesa or Armored Company or whatever. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 06:04
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in my perfect world, rules would be free and they could do whatever the gently caress they wanted
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Nov 16, 2014 06:33
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AbusePuppy posted:Well, you clearly had a couple things going against you there- for one, two 1000pt lists are almost always going to be weaker than one 2000pt list, because the paired players are forced to invest twice as much into HQ and Troop units (which, generally speaking, will be disadvantageous.) Added to that the fact that your friend is playing DA, who are... they're not very good by almost any standard and things are looking pretty poor. And then the Eldar player's list had it sounds like a Wraithknight and a pair of Serpents? That doesn't sound overwhelmingly strong on its own, but there are plenty of other good units he could fill 2000pts with, so it's hard to say. Yeah, we knew it would be a bit sub optimal - but the plan was more or less to try and compliment each other which worked out quite nicely for a little bit. He brought the psykers, tougher infantry and plasma cannons. I brought the ignore cover, heavy tanks and air support. We had pretty much everything going out way for the first two turns. We used his units as fodder and distraction units so I could fire my heavy weapons unimpeded. That all went to plan. And then we killed everything that was killable! After that it was just impossible to do anything. I can't tell you how many times we should have blown up a wave serpent, only for it to jink, turn around, and murder what tried to shoot it. When we threw in the towel he had two wave serpents, an invulnerable war walker, a solo farseer on jetbike with runes of "I can never be hit ever so don't even try", 1 HP Crimson hunter and two wraith guard left on the board. I had an untouched twenty man blob with missile launchers, company CS. The DA player had Azreal and a veteran from his command squad left. There were some pretty epic moments where we were kicking rear end. Like when my platoon command squad hopped out of a zooming vendetta to flame a unit of rangers and completely destroyed them. But like, even with everything going right for us it still was barely enough to make a dent. Super frustrating.
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Nov 16, 2014 07:15
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I'm surprised he managed to do much damage with his Wave Serpents after Jinking. Most of the time Jinking means it'll be able to put 2-4 wounds on something, even assuming it blows its Serpent Shield and manages to twin-link everything with the Scatter Laser. I guess he was just rolling golden on the sixes, then? Ignore Cover weapons of S8 or higher will gently caress up that Farseer he was using, btw. He still has a 4++, but your Missile Launchers (or Lascannons, which I would recommend over them if you have the option) will kill him on the first failed save. He's also a total pushover in close combat despite Hit and Run- he's just down to a 3+ armor save at that point, so it's really easy to just kinda beat him with a sack of doornobs and watch him die. If you guys do a similar thing in the future, Azrael REALLY likes joining up with blobs of Guardsmen- a 4++ save for the whole squad will really slow down those Wave Serpents and if you happen to have a Priest in the unit you can reroll that save in close combat. Several of the other players here in the thread can attest to the power of Azrael + IG units, because it's just brutal when you do it right and could pretty easily shred a list like that guy's.
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Nov 16, 2014 07:57
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Moola posted:Yeah this is the worst offender for me Yes, I'm still bitter as hell about that. It would not have killed them to think up at least a few new units to put in the book, as opposed to adjusting points costs, removing options/units and calling it a day. serious gaylord posted:The rules for the new nid stuff are actually free on the GW website, so they're not tied to the campaign at all.  It's great that they aren't tying the rules to White Dwarf issues that will become increasingly harder to find in the future, like they did with SoB/BA 'updates' in the past, along with that looted wagon for the Orks release. OhDearGodNo posted:Rules should be one set per race, and tweak with traits for the variations. Provide a generic merc list to allow someone to customize but treat it in itself like a race.
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Nov 16, 2014 12:51
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Sir Teabag posted:When we threw in the towel he had two wave serpents, an invulnerable war walker, a solo farseer on jetbike with runes of "I can never be hit ever so don't even try", 1 HP Crimson hunter and two wraith guard left on the board. I had an untouched twenty man blob with missile launchers, company CS. The DA player had Azreal and a veteran from his command squad left. There were some pretty epic moments where we were kicking rear end. Like when my platoon command squad hopped out of a zooming vendetta to flame a unit of rangers and completely destroyed them. But like, even with everything going right for us it still was barely enough to make a dent. Super frustrating. Competitive eldar units are some of the best in the game and very hard to beat, but you are maybe over-exaggerating their invulnerability here. For example an 'invulnerable war walker' is just AV10 with a 5+ save, it isn't as tough as you are implying. You yourself point out that he had well under half his army left, so it is hardly 'barely enough to make a dent'! It sounds like you took a decisive but hardly one-sided loss, which happens to everyone sometimes. Don't let it get you down or convince you the future is hopeless. Some tips: That farseer has an excellent protection from a 2+ re-rollable cover save. Use your Senior Officer orders to shoot him with the ignore cover order. Use S6+ weapons (eg those missile launchers) and the second he fails one of his unexceptional armour or invulnerable saves he is toast. If you cannot get him in assault or with ignores cover weapons, conserve your firepower and leave him alone - concentrate on what you can kill. If you can target him, do it to remove his buffs and get that sweet sweet slay the warlord point. Wave serpents are night and day between shooting and assault. Get those assaults in any way you can! As pointed out above, jinking will also seriously reduce their firepower. Make sure you enforce the rules and get your oppo to declare if he is jinking before hits are rolled, don't be afraid to be blunt with him about this - mention it at the top of each shooting phase and then make him stick to his decisions. Keep track of when he fires the shield so you know which are good targets for, say, deep striking melta guns or vendetta las cannons. Post your list if you like and maybe we can give you some tips to tone it up for facing that kind of army, which fair enough is perhaps the toughest in the game at the moment. EDIT: everything AbusePuppy just said is spot-on.
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Nov 16, 2014 13:01
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My War Walkers die pretty easily when they get shot at, they're just not usually a priority target
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Nov 16, 2014 13:07
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loving hell guys I think I ruined my models with all this black paint      J/K, I love oil washes. Quick lovely pictures, but I have a nerd boner right now for how great these shields are turning out. BULBASAUR fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 13:40
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So you should, those shields look ace! Although the bronze doesn't have much definition to it, the outside of the shields look really drat good. Not sure if you're done with the brass on it though, since the shoulder pads have a bit more colour variation to them.
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Nov 16, 2014 14:19
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Dude, no offense but timg tags exist for a reason.
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Nov 16, 2014 15:32
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Dude no offence but why are you using a 1024x768 monitor in 2014? v: Usually, because I always end up resizing the window to see timg'd images. ijyt fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 15:56
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Do you browse in full screen? Mine is always half width max.
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Nov 16, 2014 15:59
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will blow your mind.
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God drat you guys! Always talking sense! I was for sure exaggerating, as I said I was butt hurt and super frustrated.AbusePuppy posted:I'm surprised he managed to do much damage with his Wave Serpents after Jinking. Most of the time Jinking means it'll be able to put 2-4 wounds on something, even assuming it blows its Serpent Shield and manages to twin-link everything with the Scatter Laser. I guess he was just rolling golden on the sixes, then? I get the named characters confused, it may not have been Azrael - unless Azrael is the psyker one. For the entire game the Farseer actually wasn't really a priority for me. Since I had the most reliable anti-tank and the DA player only had plasma cannons for his heavy weapons. So I was mostly focused on vehicles or infantry that were getting uncomfortably close. At the end of the game Azrael (or Ezekiel? Aplpharius?) and his veteran buddy managed to get a charge off at the farseer. All fives and sixes for dat invul save. Then he hit and ran away. Putting him with my guard may have made them more survivable, but my infantry was only threatened turn 3 or 4. Before that the DA were doing their jobs of being kinda resilient bullet magnets. Genghis Cohen posted:Competitive eldar units are some of the best in the game and very hard to beat, but you are maybe over-exaggerating their invulnerability here. For example an 'invulnerable war walker' is just AV10 with a 5+ save, it isn't as tough as you are implying. You yourself point out that he had well under half his army left, so it is hardly 'barely enough to make a dent'! It sounds like you took a decisive but hardly one-sided loss, which happens to everyone sometimes. Don't let it get you down or convince you the future is hopeless. I am exaggerating, of course. Over the long term those war walkers shouldn't have been a problem. But in out limited sample size of one game - they survived a tac squad with melta, plasma cannon, and rapid firing bolters. A Leman Russ Exterminator with three heavy bolters firing at them (war walkers in a squad of two). The two shots that the war walkers took, the only two to be fired at my Leman Russes, blew them up and killed a couple bubble wrapping guardsmen for their troubles. Popped one turn two, popped the next turn three. So getting punked by an open top (they are open top right?) AV 10 2 HP walker stung way more than it should have. The missile launchers pulled their weight for me. But I think I only shot them twice, taking an HP off the Crimson Hunter one turn and then wiffing the next. Despite having tank hunter or ignore cover, it's still a fifty percent chance to miss with one shot weapons. I prefer autocannons, but I took the missile launchers because I knew I was the only one of the imperial players that had access to AA. Honestly, I know in theory that Eldar are killable. It's just that in practice I've never been able to eke out even a close game. And the Eldar player was rolling buckets of sixes whenever he needed to. We did kill more than half his army, but we were about to get tabled on the bottom of turn four so threw in the towel. That's why we were so frustrated - even doing well doesn't seem like enough! I'm just going to take a break from playing against Eldar for a while. I'm used to losing, but against any other army I can make it a close match and sometimes sneak out with the win. Once I'm less frustrated I'll be back to being a happy ham. Edit: Guys look, I'm just so triggered by things with pointy ears right now that I'm afraid to look at the fantasy thread in case I see an elf! 
Sir Teabag fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 17:37
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Those marines look amazing, but they're breaking the tables on my tablet something fierce.
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Nov 16, 2014 18:01
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A couple people have said the new Tyranid rules are on the black library, but I'm only seeing the toxicrene and maleceptor on there. Are they including the rules in the boxes for toxicrenes and neurothropes? I would just get the shield of Baal, but it seems GW doesn't want me to buy it.
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Nov 16, 2014 19:57
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Sorry for triggering everyone browsing 1024x768 styleHiveCommander posted:So you should, those shields look ace! Although the bronze doesn't have much definition to it, the outside of the shields look really drat good. Not sure if you're done with the brass on it though, since the shoulder pads have a bit more colour variation to them. Thanks mang. I still need to highlight the copper color with a mix of gold in silver. I'm saving that for almost the last step because varnish ruins the luster on these alcohol paints 
BULBASAUR fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 00:02
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Hollismason posted:I actually really super loving like Formations, my problem is that there are not enough of them. I think it's a really cool game mechanic. They should make them unique though , 0-1 so that they're not abused plus include a "tax" on them for a small point amount maybe. I couldn't agree more. I think the execution leaves a lot To be desired but more formations (especially relatively small ones eg. The Helbrute ones) make for really cool extra doodads to add into armies.
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Nov 17, 2014 00:24
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ineptmule posted:I couldn't agree more. I think the execution leaves a lot I don't think the fundamental idea- which is fairly indifferentiable from the alternate FoCs that all the factions are getting now- is bad. But GW's ability to judge power levels is awful (or at least it is for a lot of their folks), so on the one hand you get stuff like the formations that are just a big pile or random units from the codex glued together with a meaningless special rule (like the ones the Ork, DE, and SW codices all get in them) and on the other you have the Adamantine Lance and Firebase Cadre, which take some of the strongest units in the game and make them stronger. The Helbrute formations, most of the Tyranid ones (except Skyblight), and a lot of the others are fine, even useful. Where GW uses formations to add small buffs to units that are on the weak end of the spectrum, they are actually nice to see- being able to Deep Strike in those Multimeltas on the Helbrutes is a handy trick, and letting Genestealers infiltrate right next to the enemy means there is a small chance they might be able to do something ever. But GW's inconsistency in not releasing formations for all the factions (in essence doubly penalizing the older factions, since they are not only stuck using weak codices but also don't have access to the same tools as the newer ones) and habit of releasing game-breakingly powerful effects tacked on at no cost (reroll saves, charges, and extra autohits? sure that sounds balanced) makes for very, very poor reception for them, I think, because most people's experience with them is going to be "that one thing that gives the Tau army three extra special rules on top of all the ones they already had."
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Nov 17, 2014 00:54
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Master Twig posted:A couple people have said the new Tyranid rules are on the black library, but I'm only seeing the toxicrene and maleceptor on there. EDIT: Oh boy, the Mucloids are troops that can be taken as a single model. That's a 50 point saving per Combined Arms detachment that can be used on more Flyrants! 
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Nov 17, 2014 01:21
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Formations: to return to the theme of people picking formations for maximum power rather than for flavourful imagery. There might as well only be a very few as far as competitive play is concerned. The ones that buff up pisspoor units? Never taken. The one which add a situational or negligible effect to units? Never taken. The ones which allow you to take a load of extra top-tier units outside of a FOC and/or provide a great bonus to top-tier units? They're a no-brainer which should probably be worked into most army lists that use their component units, given that it's essentially special rules for free.
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Nov 17, 2014 01:50
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You know how certain buzzwords like polar vortex just pop up? Triggering is one of those and I wish people would just stop.
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Nov 17, 2014 01:52
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Boon posted:You know how certain buzzwords like polar vortex just pop up? Triggering is one of those and I wish people would just stop.
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Nov 17, 2014 02:10
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Does anyone know if the Sheild of Baal has new formations for Tyranids? I don't really like any of the current ones because they all require you to take crappy units. Yes, even Skyblight. Gargoyles just aren't very good and I'd much rather have crones over harpies. I'm expecting there to be a formation that gives a great bonus to Zoanthropes, that also requires a Maleceptor.
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Nov 17, 2014 02:36
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Master Twig posted:Does anyone know if the Sheild of Baal has new formations for Tyranids? 6 new Nid formations.
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Nov 17, 2014 02:45
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Master Twig posted:Does anyone know if the Sheild of Baal has new formations for Tyranids? I don't really like any of the current ones because they all require you to take crappy units. Yes, even Skyblight. Gargoyles just aren't very good and I'd much rather have crones over harpies. quote:Book one is a 152 page narrative book containing:
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Nov 17, 2014 02:48
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Isn't it already sold out? Cause I wanted to see the Cities of Death stuff, that seemed cool, and the fighter ace pilot thing. Also it's not digital is it? I didn't think it was. What they're only printing it in English? Why .. why would you do that. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 02:56
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You know, I would have thought they'd make more limited edition miniatures to drive the collector's market. Not loving rulebooks.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:01
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How do you sell out of a digital codex? Someone explain that to me?
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Nov 17, 2014 03:04
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Hollismason posted:How do you sell out of a digital codex? Someone explain that to me? You can't and the digital version is still available. The physical copy is sold out as hell though.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:06
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Hollismason posted:Also it's not digital is it? I didn't think it was. eBook version pre orders are available on the Black Library site right now, $44.99 iBooks (Apple) pre orders are also available through iTunes right now, $59.99
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Nov 17, 2014 03:08
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I don't have a device that would allow me to access the rules while playing a game if I got the digital version. The actual copy is limited edition. Why wont GW let me give them my money?
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Nov 17, 2014 03:50
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