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Zereth posted:I think we haven't passed over it because I think she's still hiding the nature of her power from him. It came up in her flashback. It is indeed a few hours, where most people take something in the range of once/twice a day tops.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:34
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I meant the conversation with Dick about it.
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Nov 19, 2014 04:38
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Oh, no, he still doesn't know. In fact, this next post involves more people teasing that poo poo.
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Nov 19, 2014 04:42
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thespaceinvader posted:Yeah, it's worth remembering that even though nominally we used electricity for the vast majority of our home power, we generate that electricity mostly with fire. You're missing the point. It is insane, even within the context of the story. But the people will accept it as it destroys their quality of life because of their feels and something something communism
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Nov 19, 2014 16:44
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Shota offers Richard one request. Because he is a moron, he asks she not murder Kahlan, rather than WHERE THE ITEM THEY NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD IS.quote:"Richard," Shota asked, while she held Kahlan's stare, "would you be able to kill her if you had to? If she was a threat to your success, would you have the courage to kill her? If it meant the lives of everyone else? The truth, now." See, as I mentioned, Shota can basically see down every possible timeline. They couch it in some other nonsense and this is incredibly inconsistent, but that's basically the gist of what she does. So she knows that she DOES need to help Richard to win (Rahl kills her otherwise), and only Richard CAN win, but then she starts spitting truth. quote:"Shota, what are these things you know?" Now, let me break this down here with the power of spoiler-vision. If Zedd knew Richard was a living copy of the Book of Counted Shadows (hey, remember that?), he would have saved a lot of time, and kept Kahlan away from him at all costs. If Richard knew Kahlan was a Confessor, he would understand like... 90% of the BoCS' prophecy about the Boxes of Orden. If Kahlan... no, Kahlan really can't do anything here with the knowledge the boys have. This plot right here is the climax of the novel, and it is duuuuuuuumb. quote:"Queen Milena has the last box of Orden." She spoke in a voice barely more than a whisper. "But heed this warning: she will not have it for long. If, that is, you choose to believe the truth, as I see it." She turned to her companion. "Samuel," she said gently, "guide them out of the Reach. Do not take anything that belongs to them. I would be very displeased if you did. That includes the Sword of Truth." There is no single line that Shota says more in this series beyond a variation of "if I see you again, I will kill you". It's a traditional witch-woman greeting, sort of like the multiple nuanced meanings of "aloha". We then cut back to Giller, Rachel, and the Two Fat Ladies. The big issue: Darken Rahl is now coming tomorrow and so they need to move their "get the box and get the gently caress out" plan into overdrive. quote:"Rachel," he said, squatting down close to her, "listen carefully, this is very important, this is no game. We must get out of the castle, or we will both get our heads chopped off, just like Sara told you. But we must be smart about it, or we will get caught. If we run away too quickly, without doing the right things first, we will be found out. And if we are too slow, well, we just better not be too slow." I really dig Giller as I reread these books. He's basically the unsung hero of this first novel. The two of them basically engage in a risky plan to have Rachel get the jewel room key from Violet while Giller secures their escape and meets here there to abscond with the girl and the Box. Rather than see how this plays out, Goodkind assumes we want to hear about how Kahlan has taken Shota's prophecy to heart and become suicidal. quote:Richard didn't know how much more of this he could take. She would only talk when it was required, wouldn't listen when he tried to make conversation, and backed away whenever he got close. She acted as if his touch would be poison, but he knew it was really her touch she worried about. He had hoped that the way she was talking when they had spotted the gars signaled a change, but he was wrong. She had quickly reverted to her dark mood. Some poo poo is chasing them too but eh, we know they have plot armor. BACK TO THE HEIST. Giller sneaks the box into a loaf of bread, gives it to Rachel, and tells her that Darken Rahl is a monster ten times worse than the royals, and he cannot have this box. But in kinder terms. Rachel is actually a bright kid and catches on quick, probably from dealing with Violet for ages. quote:She started twisting her finger in the hem of her dress. She started to get tears in her eyes. "Giller, I'm scared to touch the Queen's box." I don't think I'm spoiling a thing to say that Giller will not be out to take Rachel away. I'm sorry, Giller. You were too good for this world. Literally. You're one of the only good people in this entire world. At least he goes out like a boss.
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Nov 21, 2014 02:14
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Poor Giller. He was way more heroic than Richard.
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Nov 21, 2014 03:25
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So this is like the third premonition about the future that richard has been party to, and the third one in which they essentially said, "Yes, all of these things will happen or not happen based on what you, specifically, do." But Richard is not actually the only person fighting Darken Rahl, as made clear here. But apparently none of these characters' struggles or relevant at all, because the possibility of success or failure did not similarly cast the future into doubt. I know, I know, the protagonists as the fulcrum point of history or only factor in question is not an uncommon thing where fantasy fortune-telling (or sci-fi time travel) are concerned, but drat if the entire trope isn't retroactively indicted by Goodkind's ideology. The idea that people can do bold and heroic things and make tough sacrifices to save the world but those don't actually matter unless they're chosen randian ubermensch is so hosed up and dumb. It also reinforces a certain cynicism toward real life heroism, which is weird because that's the opposite effect that good fantasy is ostensibly supposed to have.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:23
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The thread conversation was too good not to follow it up with this next post tonight, so: Richard Cypher is a compassionate individual and our hero. quote:"I can't do this anymore," he whispered, looking down at her wrists in the light of the small fire. "Kahlan, you may be the one who wishes to die, but it is me you are killing." I almost want to just end this post here, because he seriously does let Kahlan walk off into the night, unarmed, to die. There is a lot more of him making GBS threads on her before she does, to boot. It's not even a "I'm going to snap her out of this", he really collapses and just sleeps after. But he really doesn't give her a knife, he knows they are being pursued by gars and other creatures, and he allows his guide to walk off in a suicidal funk. Instead, Rachel. quote:All the lords and ladies were drinking their special drink. They all seemed happy to be doing it. Giller was standing behind the Queen with her other advisors. He was talking quietly to the court artist. She didn't like the artist, he scared her, he always smiled funny at her. And he only had one hand. She had heard the servants talking before, that they were afraid the artist would draw a picture of them. This chapter, I will say, is actually rather tense. Rachel is constantly trying to balance putting on the innocent girl facade with not tipping anyone in the room off to her plans to flee, as Rahl immediately calls for the box and makes a scene, having Giller escorted off to be interrogated when he instantly spots the fake. Her escape is haphazard and relies on her working the guards' fears of Violet, who actually tries to stop her at one point, before Rachel burns her with the fire-wand Giller gave her and then locks her in her "sleeping box". Did I mention Violet made her sleep in a lockable box? In the end, she manages to get outside of the castle walls (despite Rahl's orders, as the royal soldiers fear the bloodthirsty Princess Violet over "Father Rahl's" kindly image) and, well... quote:She could see the outline of the castle against the starry sky, the notched top edge of the wall, the towers with lights in them. She was never going back there again, never. Her and Giller were going to run away to where people were nice and they were never going to come back. While she was panting, she heard a voice. Since from memory we will never see his half of the scene and just have it described by Rahl: know that Giller went out like a goddamn boss. He went all Goku and threw his lifeforce into a final deathblow of "Wizard's Life Fire". It's probably not ruining it to say it didn't work, but still, at least he went whole-assed into that attempt.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:59
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quote:"I said get out of here!" He pointed back the way they had come. "Go back and let the gars do the job. You may botch it with that knife! I'd hate to think you slipped and didn't finish it properly. I'd hate to think that after all this, you might not be dead." Richard is a TCC mod?
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Nov 21, 2014 06:16
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Giller's death was probably the saddest part of the part of this series I read. He was, as far as I remember, a genuine, compassionate individual who kills himself to help save the world and a little girl. He was the only(? I think. It's been awhile) character whose death made me go 'oh man that really sucks', and I don't think it was all Goodkind's writing but the scene where Rachel is talking to the doll as it turns off was a really sad scene when I read this book as a kid.
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Nov 21, 2014 07:45
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RIP Giller, you were too good for this universe. No, really, everyone else is a randian uberprick so you had to die. Sorry, man.
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Nov 21, 2014 09:02
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Wasn't Giller supposed to be trying to redeem himself for betraying Zedd or something, and doesn't that mean he died without anyone knowing what he did.
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Nov 21, 2014 09:16
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Bucnasti posted:Wasn't Giller supposed to be trying to redeem himself for betraying Zedd or something, and doesn't that mean he died without anyone knowing what he did. Apparently, selling your services like Giller did for the queen is taboo for wizards. Except, he secretly did it to protect the Box from Dark Roll. He's 100% a better person than every other adult human in these books, and he dies pointlessly near the beginning of the whole series.
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Nov 21, 2014 09:44
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Plague of Hats posted:Apparently, selling your services like Giller did for the queen is taboo for wizards. Except, he secretly did it to protect the Box from Dark Roll. He's 100% a better person than every other adult human in these books, and he dies pointlessly near the beginning of the whole series. I only read the first book, and I remember feeling pretty bad about Giller. Did anyone ever know what he did and why?
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Nov 21, 2014 09:52
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Bucnasti posted:Wasn't Giller supposed to be trying to redeem himself for betraying Zedd or something, and doesn't that mean he died without anyone knowing what he did. I think that Zedd noticed that Giller gave his life for a good purpose, something like the residue left by the wizard's life fire being sweet, if memory serves.
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Nov 21, 2014 09:53
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It's got more impact because it's actually heroic. Here we have a compassionate wizard working against someone who is way stronger than him and who he knows can kill the hell out of him and the abused young girl who has to be brave and stand up to accept what she's got to do to keep said bad guy from getting a macguffin. Giller and Rachel aren't in control, they aren't super plot armored and 'ubermensch', and thus they have to display actual bravery and act like people. There's no smug righteous anger here or anything, just a kind old man sacrificing his life to save the world and a young girl he cares about while she has to improvise an escape and have the strength to move on. That's the stuff of an actual good story.
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Nov 21, 2014 18:03
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:
Giller really is my favorite part of the book.
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Nov 21, 2014 19:56
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It's all downhill from here 
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Nov 21, 2014 19:58
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Night10194 posted:It's got more impact because it's actually heroic. Here we have a compassionate wizard working against someone who is way stronger than him and who he knows can kill the hell out of him and the abused young girl who has to be brave and stand up to accept what she's got to do to keep said bad guy from getting a macguffin. Giller and Rachel aren't in control, they aren't super plot armored and 'ubermensch', and thus they have to display actual bravery and act like people. There's no smug righteous anger here or anything, just a kind old man sacrificing his life to save the world and a young girl he cares about while she has to improvise an escape and have the strength to move on. That's the stuff of an actual good story. But isn't sacrificing oneself for the sake of others one of the ultimate evils of altruism in Randian philosophy? Did Goodkind intend him to come off as a good guy who wasn't a strawman?
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Nov 21, 2014 20:07
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He made the mistake of not completely trusting Zedd right from the start. This is that mistake catching up with him.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:10
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Yeah you have to realize in this series that not doing what Richard/Zedd say/want at all times is, itself, a HUGE MASSIVE SIN deserving of death. Like the further on you get in the series the more this is explicitly evident. Basically anyone who ever does a single thing that is not What Richard Wants suffers a heinous and violent death as a direct result, outside of a very, very select few plot-armoured characters who I think all die later anyway. This is especially weird because Richard is shown to be wrong ALL THE TIME. It's actually an interesting study in the good/evil paradigm of monotheistic religions. Is something good because there is inherent good in the universe, or is it good because it's what God wants? Clearly Goodkind believes the latter.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:20
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One wonders why Zed allowed the Boxes and the Sword to be distributed as trophies, when he seems perfectly willing to bilk people for petty reasons, and we later find out that he has the perfect treasure storehouse to keep all this ridiculous macguffin crap locked away. Of course, the answer is that he had to allow people to "learn from their own mistakes", even if that means letting the world blow up and shirking presumed duties of his post. It's like how you have to let children accidentally shoot themselves to teach them gun safety.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:21
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Plague of Hats posted:One wonders why Zed allowed the Boxes and the Sword to be distributed as trophies, when he seems perfectly willing to bilk people for petty reasons, and we later find out that he has the perfect treasure storehouse to keep all this ridiculous macguffin crap locked away. Of course, the answer is that he had to allow people to "learn from their own mistakes", even if that means letting the world blow up and shirking presumed duties of his post. It's like how you have to let children accidentally shoot themselves to teach them gun safety. Incoming Wizard Shotgun comic in 3... A lot of that is probably laziness too - the spoilered stuff wasn't part of the world until later in the series, so then Goodkind has to retroactively justify Zed's actions given the new info. Since he's not a good writer, he does a lazy rear end-pull of "people have to learn from their mistakes," but the real answer is, of course, "[spoilers] didn't exist when I was writing Book 1."
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Nov 21, 2014 20:39
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A lot of this series real issues seem to me to be down to the fact that Goodkind didn't ever seem to think beyond the book he was currently writing. There are a whole bunch of instances (though none spring to mind in detail) IIRC where he basically added something to a later episode which would have perfectly fixed a huge problem in earlier episodes and somehow no-one knew about it back then because Or, for that matter, no-one remembered it later on (loving DRAGONS, HEART HOUNDS etc etc etc) because
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Nov 21, 2014 20:44
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Plague of Hats posted:One wonders why Zed allowed the Boxes and the Sword to be distributed as trophies, when he seems perfectly willing to bilk people for petty reasons, and we later find out that he has the perfect treasure storehouse to keep all this ridiculous macguffin crap locked away. Of course, the answer is that he had to allow people to "learn from their own mistakes", even if that means letting the world blow up and shirking presumed duties of his post. It's like how you have to let children accidentally shoot themselves to teach them gun safety. Actually this is a very good question. The in story reason we have right now is that he allowed it to happen due to his grief over what happened to his daughter. But we know she survived. So it is a good question. He doesn't forget about dragons! He kills them off-screen in the fifth book because he was tired of constantly being asked about Scarlet
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Nov 21, 2014 21:41
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Dr.Magnificent posted:He doesn't forget about dragons! He kills them off-screen in the fifth book because he was tired of constantly being asked about Scarlet At this point no joke I personally started to hate Goodkind. Goodkind is anathema to all that is good, seriously. 
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Nov 21, 2014 22:01
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Sadly, all good things must end, and just like Giller's life, so does Kahlan's exile. For some reason Richard wakes up and she's just sitting there on a log. Luckily, that whole episode FINALLY gets her to explain being a Confessor. Poorly. quote:She nodded. "Remember when I told you that some who lived in the Midlands were creatures of magic? And that they couldn't give up that magic, because it was part of them?" He nodded to her. "Well, I am one of those creatures. I am more than a woman." So, y'know. NOT ACTUALLY THAT HARD TO DESCRIBE. We finally get the explanation of why Quads exist (they are "the most economical unit" for this sort of thing, direct quote), and how Kahlan isn't just any Confessor, she is GOD MODE CONFESSOR. quote:"How much time?" he asked. "How much time does it take to recover after a Confessor has used her power?" Now, let's bring up, and the text does this too, how much of a dick move this is. Richard killed a man for the first time protecting Kahlan, who did not need this assistance at all. In fact, offscreen, she already solo-killed an entire Quad without him! So he got roped into this whole shitshow on account of her never opening her mouth. Let me also point out that this is page 506. The book is roughly 800 pages. Richard, the Seeker of Truth, let almost 3/4ths of his book go by without every bothering to press for this information, or intuiting it on his own. Meanwhile, we, the readers, have seen it spelled out in slightly less detail since the first 100 pages, when she uses her power on the assassins, a night wisp, and talks about it in-depth with Zedd one night. But enough of my bitching. Let's find out how the Seekers are related to Confessors! quote:Richard didn't know what to do with his hands, so he picked up a stick and started drawing lines in the dirt. "I still don't understand, why are you called 'Confessors'? What does 'Confessor' mean?" He was able to look up at her only with great difficulty. They get turned into talking dogs! I swear to god that was this series. Anyway, if y'all thought we were being weird about gender before, let's ratchet that up a notch. quote:"Why do you always say 'she,' 'her,' 'daughter'? Why always women? What of the men, don't Confessors bear male children?" He realized his voice sounded as if it were scraping over gravel. Also, I'm just gonna throw this out there: it seems like there are many more humane ways to do that.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:33
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thespaceinvader posted:A lot of this series real issues seem to me to be down to the fact that Goodkind didn't ever seem to think beyond the book he was currently writing. I am convinced that at least the first trilogy was planned. There's a lot of stuff in this book that he either retconned in and it worked somehow, or he really did plan to have war wizards unable to stand the taste of meat from day one. See: any scene where Rahl has a meal.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:34
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Quads are known for raping confessors after they've spent their power right? Without getting love-bombed? Makes the thing where Confessors can't have sex for fun really dumb, since we know sex is safe for their partner once the Confessor has spent her power.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:41
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"The ancient wizards decided they needed some sort of fool-proof lie detector to get around false accusations in court, because we never did the whole 'innocent until proven guilty thing'" "So... They made a flashing light when you tell a lie? A glove that slaps you in the face? A room where you can't tell a lie?" "Nope, a woman who touches you and then you're her mind-slave. And they forgot to stop her kids inheriting the power." Edit: "or giving her any real way to control it! It seemed like the best option at the time." Double-edit: actually, thinking about it, it seems whenever a wizard had a problem in these things, his go-to solution is "Hey... Hey, you guys, listen. What if... What if, are you with me, we enchanted a woman?" Elfface fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 22:46
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I'd say "every wizard ever is an idiot" except I'm pretty sure every being with enough intelligence to think beyond "swim swim hungry" is an idiot in this series.
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Nov 21, 2014 23:12
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Given how horrible everyone else is, I had this terrible feeling that Giller was going to turn out to be another child molester. 
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Nov 21, 2014 23:16
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Fortunately for him he died before anything like that could show up.
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Nov 21, 2014 23:18
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The wizards specifically chose women to hold the power and knew that it would be passed to their children, but somehow forgot that women give birth to men about half the time. Also Confessors can't have sex for love because they release their power, but nobody ever thought about dumping their power into a goat or something and then having sex during the cooldown.
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Nov 21, 2014 23:28
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Should probably stick the Wizard's Shotgun comic in the OP. So...the Confessors basically Bene Gesserit or Honored Matres, right? But without all the other abilities, or the constant political scheming. The writing seems really stilted. Is that all a direct transcription? It sounds sort of like the way people write on RP forums. Or worse, how I write. How much cash does he make doing this. edit ^Or into a Wizard
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Nov 21, 2014 23:58
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poo poo like this makes me happy I spent more time consulting dictionaries trying to follow the plot than actually trying to understand the implications of all of this back then when I was reading this series. The only good thing the Sword of Truth books have done for me was upgrading my English grades from a perpetual D into B-C range. On the other hand, now this fact is an endless source of embarrassment...
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Nov 22, 2014 00:24
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I think the ethics of this series are summed up nicely by its take on emotions: anger is good, love is bad.
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Nov 22, 2014 01:23
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Rockopolis posted:Is that all a direct transcription? Anything in quote tags is direct from the books barring me adding a [...] to signify I cut some poo poo. You'll notice I'm rarely cutting poo poo. I am abridging heavily! Some of these chapters would take forever otherwise. But I am not editing.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:56
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If you think the writing's awkward and awful now, just wait until we get to the gross sex poo poo (i.e., the last quarter of every book, and sometimes the beginning and middle, too).
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Nov 22, 2014 07:04
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Holy moly, we're over halfway through? In my mind, the rest that's still to come seems like at least two thirds. There's going to be a whole lot of good (meaning bad) poo poo coming really fast if I'm remembering right. I picked up this book basically at random while volunteering at a book sale thing. I think I just saw the word "wizard" and figured that sounded good enough. Somehow, I ended up reading at least the first three or so in the series before I realized they were bad. And it took even longer before I made the connections with Rand. I still read the whole series because I couldn't stand not knowing how this lovely story ended.  On a lighter note, the show was actually sometimes decent. I was considering rewatching it and doing a similar commentary thing if the OP is cool with it, probably focusing on differences from the book, but I don't know how much material would be there since it's not as hilariously bad (or my memory is just being generous).
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Nov 22, 2014 07:11
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