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And moreover, how do you get Good People? Racism aside, the answer through that is through high-quality, widely-available education and media. Libertarianism is incapable of providing high-quality products universally, that's part of the point. And any comparison between Fox / MSNBC / CNN against NPR / BBC / even loving Al Jazeera shows a pretty clear correlation between government funding and quality, informative media. Hell, capitalism even has a hard time with non-journalistic media -- how many Saw movies were there, again? How many great writers and artists died penniless before their work was popularized?
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Nov 24, 2014 21:00
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Muscle Tracer posted:And moreover, how do you get Good People? Racism aside, the answer through that is through high-quality, widely-available education and media. Libertarianism is incapable of providing high-quality products universally, that's part of the point. And any comparison between Fox / MSNBC / CNN against NPR / BBC / even loving Al Jazeera shows a pretty clear correlation between government funding and quality, informative media. Hell, capitalism even has a hard time with non-journalistic media -- how many Saw movies were there, again? How many great writers and artists died penniless before their work was popularized? Come on, the answer is clearly to have a homogenous (white) population.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:05
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Caros posted:Come on, the answer is clearly to have a homogenous (white) population. Muscle Tracer posted:And moreover, how do you get Good People? Racism aside, <  >
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Nov 24, 2014 21:10
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Caros posted:Come on, the answer is clearly to have a homogenous (white) population. Can confirm, Moldova is heaven on Earth, Mexico utter wasteland. These are facts that line up with the real world, yes. SedanChair posted:There's a reason that Murray Rothbard was really hard on the US government but when it came to the South African government he was like "look they're doing the best they can." It must have broken his poor old heart to see so much non-aggression going on in South Africa, to the point that the Boers could non-agress the black people into their own micronations, but they just couldn't take that last step into Libertarian paradise and have the state stop calling itself a state  .
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Nov 24, 2014 21:11
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I love that even the avowed white supremacist puts "racist" in scare quotes. It really has just become some kind liberal attack word with no actual definition beyond 'bad guy' to conservatives, hasn't it?
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Nov 24, 2014 21:14
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Yeah, but there isn't an answer that puts "racism" aside for him.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:17
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Wolfsheim posted:I love that even the avowed white supremacist puts "racist" in scare quotes. It really has just become some kind liberal attack word with no actual definition beyond 'bad guy' to conservatives, hasn't it? I imagine it's similar to how "misanthropist" is received when MRAs yell it at feminists. When someone levies a criticism against you for what is, to you, just "you see the truth," it stops having any meaning except as an attack word.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:19
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How do we get these racially homogeneous countries full of good people with good values? Is despoiling the blacks and Mexicans and evicting them from the country and Bataan-marching them south at bayonet-point conveniently defined as "retaliatory force" in self-defense against their dusky complexions? I love the NAP, so endlessly flexible 
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Nov 24, 2014 21:25
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VitalSigns posted:How do we get these racially homogeneous countries full of good people with good values? Is despoiling the blacks and Mexicans and evicting them from the country and Bataan-marching them south at bayonet-point conveniently defined as "retaliatory force" in self-defense against their dusky complexions? The inferior races` melanin is aggressing upon the unblemished whiteness of our Nordic natural godmen.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:27
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VitalSigns posted:How do we get these racially homogeneous countries full of good people with good values? Is despoiling the blacks and Mexicans and evicting them from the country and Bataan-marching them south at bayonet-point conveniently defined as "retaliatory force" in self-defense against their dusky complexions? He's not an AnCap nor does he subscribe to the NAP, as he explicitly states that he wants a State entity that will make the streets run red with the blood of the non-whites.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:30
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Who What Now posted:He's not an AnCap nor does he subscribe to the NAP, as he explicitly states that he wants a State entity that will make the streets run red with the blood of the non-whites. Oh yeah, you're right I just now got to the follow-up "Ask me why I abandoned Libertarianism in favor of the loving Nazi Party" post. I thought that was weird, most true-believer Libertarians are more subtle or more naive about the racism, but now it makes sense. Edit: I do love that his argument is apparently basically "Dumb liberals, a state is justified, not because of your pussy health care system, but because the negroes are too apelike and stupid to be trusted with freedom" 
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Nov 24, 2014 21:32
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I'm picturing Jrod leaning back in his chair, fingers steepled. "They want racists, I'll show them racists." *ring ring* "LuftWaffe? I have a job for you..."
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Nov 24, 2014 21:33
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Wolfsheim posted:I love that even the avowed white supremacist puts "racist" in scare quotes. It really has just become some kind liberal attack word with no actual definition beyond 'bad guy' to conservatives, hasn't it? Racist is just some word made up by Leon Trotsky anyways.
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Nov 24, 2014 21:34
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quote:You must be new to the Libertarian trade, because fetishizing economic systems is LITERALLY what they do. Yet another person who cannot read, holy poo poo. That's exactly what I'm saying you loving retard. I don't think that political or economic systems decide outcomes as much as libertarians, communists, or any other political/economic fetishist think they do. This is what I am talking about. You people lack basic reading comprehension skills. It's pointless for someone representing the opposition to come in here. Every 1 comment that they make gets replied to with 20 people making retarded sarcastic comments that don't even remotely address what is being said. quote:What's with the scare quotes around racist? You are 100% without a doubt a bigot who believes he is racially superior to non-whites, so at least own up to it all the way. Because that term has taken on a life of its own and I don't want to be identified with it. My views are not the same as some random KKK redneck. quote:To which I reply, "what makes you think that you are a better person than people who had to fight and risk their lives to bring about an actual revolution?" That doesn't address the argument at all. There is no reason to think that who fought or risked their lives for something are the people who, when in charge, would ensure the best outcomes. If you think you could have corrected something that went wrong then of course you'd think you could do better. And of course there is the complication of "what some person thinks" and "what would actually happen". quote:I also have seen privately how many good people working together can end up doing bad things due to a poorly designed governance structure. So no, having good people is not enough. You could get suboptimal results, that is of course true and by me saying that mixed economies are superior I am already acknowledging this fact. What I am saying is that with good people (and by good I mean fair, honest, intelligent, well-meaning), you will at least get a good effort towards maximizing the possibilities of some structure. What I am also saying is that the real-world counterpart to this conversation is that the structures you're talking about are also the products of some group of people, and if they are good (fair, honest, intelligent, well-meaning), then those structures will be good. Or at the very least, as good people they will recognize and correct the deficiencies. quote:And moreover, how do you get Good People? In the real world you don't, they are either there or they are not. They could be there but not in charge of anything. They could be in charge of everything while all the bad people just live in the society they run. It's a crapshoot. The only thing you can hope for is that the ambitious people are good. It's just groups of people creating structures. There is a selection bias where large and functioning states only arise from groups of people who are intellectually and socially capable of creating and running states. I.e. to even make a state at all requires a certain amount of cooperation and intelligent planning. The groups who aren't intelligent or socially cohesive enough do not create large states. They have warlords or create tribes or something like that. quote:Libertarianism is incapable of providing high-quality products universally, that's part of the point. And any comparison between Fox / MSNBC / CNN against NPR / BBC / even loving Al Jazeera shows a pretty clear correlation between government funding and quality, informative media. Hell, capitalism even has a hard time with non-journalistic media -- how many Saw movies were there, again? How many great writers and artists died penniless before their work was popularized? Again, you are utterly missing the point. The government is a product of some group of people. So are the laws. So are the private enterprises like CNN/Fox/MSNBC. So are public enterprises like BBC/NPR. These are all products of the same civilization(s). Everything starts with the people, because everything is the product of people. The government that makes things you like is also a product of people. If you lived in a civilization with lovely people you wouldn't have CNN/Fox/MSNBC OR BBC/NPR, and may not have a real state at all. To put it another way, even if the government collapsed tomorrow you'd still have the people in our society who were responsible for NPR/BBC (maybe the creators are dead, but you'd still have people who liked it, and were passionate about making great programming etc.). You'd still have the people who were responsible for that state in the first place (with the same clarification as the last), and they might just make another state and another NPR. In my view, anarchy is more like a stem cell which leads to some other state system, simply because states have such massive utilitarian value. quote:I love the NAP, so endlessly flexible Yet another person who cannot read, holy poo poo. quote:as he explicitly states that he wants a State entity that will make the streets run red with the blood of the non-whites. Actually I never said nor implied such a thing. I'm not in favor of murdering people. But since you claim that I "explicitly stated" that: Yet another person who cannot read, holy poo poo. quote:"Dumb liberals, a state is justified, not because of your pussy health care system, but because the negroes are too apelike and stupid to be trusted with freedom" You can justify it for a lot of reasons, these are (some of) mine. If you want a health care system then by all means. Maybe I'd even want a healthcare system in my perfect state. However I think you will find that a government health care system is only degraded by the presence of the lesser races, who "consume" healthcare without being capable of adding to the supply. You will also find that the people of lesser races are not capable of administering it properly. It would be really funny to me to see a black state with UHC. quote:I thought that was weird, most true-believer Libertarians are more subtle or more naive about the racism, but now it makes sense. In my time as what you are calling a libertarian (an anarchist), neither I nor anyone I interacted with gave opinions or justifications which were explicitly or implicitly racist. In fact, in my interactions with them now, they are pissed at me for being a racist just like you all are. There is a large rift between white nationalists and libertarians (here's a video which shows how this breaks down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A5fiMrJ3i0). Their justifications for getting rid of the state includes the idea that it would be better for minorities who are oppressed or otherwise negatively affected by it. The fact that you think that's not true doesn't mean that they are racist for thinking it is true. That's simply arguing dishonestly, where you refuse to believe that someone sincerely holds a belief, and that they must have some super duper bad and mean reason for saying something. That's arguing like an rear end in a top hat, which is an absolute hallmark of this forum and the reason why people don't come here to argue with you people. You think other people are assholes because of their views, so you treat them like assholes. This makes YOU the rear end in a top hat in practice. Even now I think it's rather questionable to act like freedom would be so much worse for blacks than stewardship by white government. It sounds very paternalistic. It also totally precludes the possibility that they would just make their own state. I don't think they would. I think they would live in squalor and die without white stewardship. But there's not a libertarian I've talked to that wasn't optimistic for them. Which puts the 3 of us (me, you all, and libertarians) in an interesting 3-way relationship. I think they would die without a white state because they are dumb, and I don't care that they would. Libertarians think they would be better off without a state. You all think they need a white state to live, which is why we should give them one (or more accurately: why we shouldn't take it away from them). I make no guarantees that I'll continue replying. I've said just about everything I want to say. You guys are just another flavor of people who conduct themselves like assholes on the internet. It's just your sense of piousness that shields you from introspection.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:40
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quote:However I think you will find that a government health care system is only degraded by the presence of the lesser races, who "consume" healthcare without being capable of adding to the supply. You will also find that the people of lesser races are not capable of administering it properly. It would be really funny to me to see a black state with UHC. Holy poo poo, this dude needs to be executed by firing squad on a Twitch live stream.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:45
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LuftWaffle posted:Because that term has taken on a life of its own and I don't want to be identified with it. My views are not the same as some random KKK redneck. No, they absolutely are. The only difference is that you want someone else to do the lynching for you.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:46
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You are literally human garbage and the world would benefit immensely if you would put a bullet through your skull. Your rationalizations don't make your vile disgusting racism any better.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:50
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LuftWaffle posted:Again, you are utterly missing the point. What creates good people? (It's not race, hth.) These organizations actually wouldn't exist and would in fact be impossible under other social systems, and therefore the people would be worse. "Good" and "Bad" are not binary genetic intrinsics.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:50
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LuftWaffle posted:Even now I think it's rather questionable to act like freedom would be so much worse for blacks than stewardship by white government. It sounds very paternalistic. It also totally precludes the possibility that they would just make their own state. Quoting for posterity. It sounds to me like you're going to need all that government to protect you and your lovely ideas. quote:You can justify it for a lot of reasons, these are (some of) mine. If you want a health care system then by all means. Maybe I'd even want a healthcare system in my perfect state. However I think you will find that a government health care system is only degraded by the presence of the lesser races, who "consume" healthcare without being capable of adding to the supply. You will also find that the people of lesser races are not capable of administering it properly. It would be really funny to me to see a black state with UHC. What does this even mean? Are "lesser races" incapable of becoming doctors or something?
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Nov 24, 2014 22:51
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Dude, you came in to the Libertarian thread to call us a bunch of statist retards whose arguments against Libertarianism are nonspecifically dumb, and Libertarians are notorious for splitting up into weird subgroups who all adamantly refuse to identify with one another. It's not really a surprise that we assumed you're one of them. If you want to talk about your crazy rear end beliefs without confusion, perhaps you should do it in a thread that isn't devoted to a completely different philosophy? I'm sure that we'd all be more than happy to shout at you there. Edit: Jesus, I just read your post beyond the clarifications that you're not an AnCap. Please gently caress off forever immediately. 
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Nov 24, 2014 22:52
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LuftWaffle posted:Because that term has taken on a life of its own and I don't want to be identified with it. My views are not the same as some random KKK redneck. No, you're right. Yours are much, much worse. Your random KKK redneck hates largely because its what he's been taught, and because of a combination of ignorence and fear. You on the other hand have actively sought out hate based literature. That is way more hosed up. Oh, and by the way I don't give a gently caress if you want to be identified by it. If you say racist things, then you are a racist. Surprise! quote:You can justify it for a lot of reasons, these are (some of) mine. If you want a health care system then by all means. Maybe I'd even want a healthcare system in my perfect state. However I think you will find that a government health care system is only degraded by the presence of the lesser races, who "consume" healthcare without being capable of adding to the supply. You will also find that the people of lesser races are not capable of administering it properly. It would be really funny to me to see a black state with UHC. Oh do go on. Tell us about the superiority of the white race and shine on you crazy racist diamond This is factually untrue in any country except the US by the way, where blacks only 'contribute' less because of generational abuse at the hands of magnificent assholes like you. Oh, also Rwanda, Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, and Tunisia. Isn't that funny? The black man is apparently better than the white United States at instituting universal healthcare. You racist. quote:In my time as what you are calling a libertarian (an anarchist), neither I nor anyone I interacted with gave opinions or justifications which were explicitly or implicitly racist. In fact, in my interactions with them now, they are pissed at me for being a racist just like you all are. There is a large rift between white nationalists and libertarians (here's a video which shows how this breaks down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A5fiMrJ3i0). They're probably mad at you for being a big obnoxious racist. You should probably seek help for that problem. And it is a problem, just so we are clear. You racist. quote:Their justifications for getting rid of the state includes the idea that it would be better for minorities who are oppressed or otherwise negatively affected by it. The fact that you think that's not true doesn't mean that they are racist for thinking it is true. That's simply arguing dishonestly, where you refuse to believe that someone sincerely holds a belief, and that they must have some super duper bad and mean reason for saying something. That's arguing like an rear end in a top hat, which is an absolute hallmark of this forum and the reason why people don't come here to argue with you people. You think other people are assholes because of their views, so you treat them like assholes. This makes YOU the rear end in a top hat in practice. Nope, we think that libertarians are racist because we can point to numerous examples of race based ideology in the libertarian movements in the USA. Anything from Ron Paul's racist newsletters and League of the South connections, to Reason Magazine's approval for apartheid and so forth. Not all libertarians are racist, I'll agree, but many libertarians are in fact racist and do in fact hold racist views. Its a pretty well established fact in this thread, which you'd know if you'd read it. You racist. quote:Even now I think it's rather questionable to act like freedom would be so much worse for blacks than stewardship by white government. It sounds very paternalistic. It also totally precludes the possibility that they would just make their own state. Just... Just wow. You are such a racist. quote:I don't think they would. I think they would live in squalor and die without white stewardship. But there's not a libertarian I've talked to that wasn't optimistic for them. Which puts the 3 of us (me, you all, and libertarians) in an interesting 3-way relationship. I think they would die without a white state because they are dumb, and I don't care that they would. Libertarians think they would be better off without a state. You all think they need a white state to live, which is why we should give them one (or more accurately: why we shouldn't take it away from them). Jesus christ on the cross dude, this is actually sickening to read. Go watch loving American History X or something and have a revelation about your life, you sorely need it because you are an enormous shithead with ideas that were debunked in the early 19th century. You are wrong, and you will continue to be wrong and I really feel sorry for you. You racist. quote:I make no guarantees that I'll continue replying. I've said just about everything I want to say. You guys are just another flavor of people who conduct themselves like assholes on the internet. It's just your sense of piousness that shields you from introspection. I make no guarantees that you will continue to post because I expect you'll be banned once a moderator comes online, because you've been blatantly spouting hate speech. Please feel free to go away on your own however, preferably to seek help. For your Racism. Caros fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 22:58
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 e: uh, well I will say LuftWaffle, I think you have really reasoned out your relationship with libertarianism. You've learned the lessons they teach (racism) better than they learn them themselves; and instead of fooling around with praxeology or weird theorizing you proceed to bring racism to the center of your political and philosophical worldview. Again, well done! woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 23:05
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We just need the version of this and the thread really would be complete.
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Nov 24, 2014 23:08
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Remember all: Deep down, we're all the racists for pointing out racist shitheels.
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Nov 24, 2014 23:09
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CommieGIR posted:Remember all: Deep down, we're all the racists for pointing out racist shitheels. The part that I just love is that he doesn't like to be identified as racist. quote:Because that term has taken on a life of its own and I don't want to be identified with it. My views are not the same as some random KKK redneck Yeah, I don't like it when people point out that I'm a huge racist... because I don't like to be equated with... you know, racists.
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Nov 24, 2014 23:11
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No you see, when he says the negro is the inferior race he actually means...
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Nov 24, 2014 23:12
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LolitaSama posted:I'm an immigrant, and during 2013 and 2014, as debate over immigration reformed raged on in the US, I saw how extremely anti-immigrant the Republican Party was. It was so extreme I could only imagine intense racist fervor could inspire such zeal. I reluctantly switched over to being a single issue Democrat at first, but started to see everything from a more leftist viewpoint over time. Now I see the same racist fervor of the anti-immigrant right also underlying libertarian ideology. I realized libertarian dislike for welfare was actually driven by the fact that it was viewed as a transfer of wealth from rich whites to poor blacks. The people on Stormfront (the white supremacist forum) spouted the same nonsense conspiracy theories about the federal reserve system as the libertarians, but they colorfully included heavy anti-Semitic arguments that libertarians omitted. Feels like a great time to quote this post from an ex-libertarian about why he's no longer a libertarian, and how people like LuftWaffle are the reason why
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Nov 24, 2014 23:27
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Listen I'm going to just state it: all libertarians are racist. I have yet to meet one or read any libertarian author that didn't buy into the idea that there were fundamental differences between arbitrary racial classifications. This is a racist belief, and fundamentally at odds with current understandings of genetics and biology. Whether or not you believe that black people are inherently inferior or doomed to failure, or just not suited to living with white people, you are a racist. And, FYI, people like Hoppe suggesting that a good libertarian society would allow bigoted enclaves as a matter of course is, in fact, a pretty good indicator that they are racist, sexist and homophobic. The specific types of mini-societies they envision as existing and explicitly call out are always racially based or based upon keeping out undesirable classes. It's never anything else. Why do you think that is? Because this is what they want from their perfect society.
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Nov 24, 2014 23:37
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LuftWaffle posted:What I am saying is that with good people (and by good I mean fair, honest, intelligent, well-meaning), you will at least get a good effort towards maximizing the possibilities of some structure. But what if the best people in a certain situation happen to be black? Surely even a race realist such as yourself might account for that scenario, as unlikely as it may be 
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Nov 24, 2014 23:44
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You see this is why I actually do hold something in common with Triple H. I do believe creatures such as you should be either forced out or employed for the rest of society until you reform after years of hard back breaking work. Also I am fine with just making everyone at 18 sign a contract saying they will abide by societies rules.
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Nov 24, 2014 23:44
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I can't believe loving LolitaSama came around. I remember their posts and they were loving vile.
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Nov 24, 2014 23:48
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Nov 25, 2014 00:00
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Yeah well for sure the lesser races can't accomplish poo poo I mean let's keep it real he -- what the gently caress do you mean, I'm racist?
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Nov 25, 2014 00:25
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Political Whores posted:Listen I'm going to just state it: all libertarians are racist. I have yet to meet one or read any libertarian author that didn't buy into the idea that there were fundamental differences between arbitrary racial classifications. This is a racist belief, and fundamentally at odds with current understandings of genetics and biology. Whether or not you believe that black people are inherently inferior or doomed to failure, or just not suited to living with white people, you are a racist. And, FYI, people like Hoppe suggesting that a good libertarian society would allow bigoted enclaves as a matter of course is, in fact, a pretty good indicator that they are racist, sexist and homophobic. The specific types of mini-societies they envision as existing and explicitly call out are always racially based or based upon keeping out undesirable classes. It's never anything else. Why do you think that is? Because this is what they want from their perfect society. The White Race should be locked away in an intricate underground dungeon like boss-monsters in a fantasy universe. We must never be inflicted upon the world again PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 00:36
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If I may interject, it's obvious that LuftWaffle is a man who feels out of place in the world. He is trying to reconcile the modern world with his Middle-Earth-like understanding of the world, such as when it comes to society or race. For example, when he refers to race, he is using the old understanding that a race has inherent traits--not just physical characteristics, such as in Dungeons & Dragons, but inherent moral ones. In The Lord of the Rings, it is stated multiple times that out of all of the races, the closest race to Eru Ilúvatar and his Ainur are the Elves, who were created by God himself as the wisest and fairest of all. Orcs and other "lesser races," on the other hand, were Elves that were tortured and corrupted by Morgoth for the sole purpose of following evil, and no historical evidence exists that an Orc can overcome his inherent nature to follow evil. Also, when he talks about a state being only as good as his people, he is literally using the same morality that allows states such as Lothlórien and Númenor to exist as a contrast to something such as Mordor itself. It is no surprise that Mordor, populated by "lesser" Orcs, would inherently allow themselves to be ruled by a Dark Lord who ceases to cast the entire world in shadow and enslave all to his will as some kind of despot. Lorien, on the other hand, is ruled by wise and benevolent Elven royalty who live in a society that exists in harmony with nature, as well as its own citizens; Elvish life is purely regimented, yet allows for things such as beautiful artwork and craftsmanship. Númenor stands as a mid-point between the two, yet still illustrates his point. An island ruled by kings of men who were blessed with unnaturally long life, whose sole sin was that they dared stretch themselves east and allow themselves to be infiltrated by lesser races which sewed seeds of chaos and discord amongst the populace, allowing themselves to succumb to their lesser basic animalistic natures of greed and jealousy of what others have (in this case, the eternal life of the Valar), much like modern economic attempts to "share the wealth" amongst class lines. As you can see, all three lands had the same type of government, but the people who populated these lands was the critical factor in their ultimate downfalls.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:44
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I don't know what's more pathetic, the possibility that this dude's been keeping the Nazi* gimmick going since '02, or the possibility that he's legit and the most pathetic Nazi ever. *Nazi, Dark
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Nov 25, 2014 00:46
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It's a pity that Emden hasn't rereged since his last banning, it almost would be worth it to see those two idiots bounce off each other over which was more "realistic" about race. Almost.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:50
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Wolfsheim posted:But what if the best people in a certain situation happen to be black? Surely even a race realist such as yourself might account for that scenario, as unlikely as it may be There are situations where the best people would be black. Picking cotton or playing cornerback for example. *Drops mic* bye (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2014 00:54
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LuftWaffle posted:There are situations where the best people would be black. Picking cotton or playing cornerback for example. You're not fooling anyone. You'll be back, even if you have to duck out early from your Strength Through Joy block meeting this evening.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:57
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LuftWaffle posted:There are situations where the best people would be black. Picking cotton or playing cornerback for example. You sure showed us. (That you're a complete fuckwit.)
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Nov 25, 2014 00:59
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