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Of the companies I'm looking at, one isn't a standard software engineer/developer role: it's a mix of software engineering, architecture, leadership and coaching and greatly appeals to me. So far the interview process is going awesome but I've already punted twice on answering what my salary requirements are. Since I came to them, I don't want to be pushy about them giving a range first. But should I let them do that? It's a very new business, small and rapidly expanding, based out of San Francisco. I'm in Portland, OR. Should I aim for a salary range of lead software engineer in San Francisco or let them put out a range? I've got a history of not asking for enough, except when I did on that pulled offer earlier  .Is it a good pitch to say "with $x a year I'm on board tomorrow" if they won't give a range? And what if they do and it's way under what I'm thinking? Skier fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 5, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 22:59
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I've never had an issue throwing out the first number, do your homework, figure out what the salary range for your job is in that area, and then shoot high, like 80th percentile high. Surely you have a number in your head that would make you happy. Go above that. I personally prefer to evaluate the 'overall compensation package' as PTO, Health Benefits, and the working environment is more important to me than my total cash compensation at this point in my career. I would gladly take 10K less to work somewhere I get more vacation time and have flexible hours vs. the standard 1 or 2 weeks vacation and 8 to 5 hours. Young companies are tricky though, many of them try to keep salaries low, but dangle options and equity in there. Don't take a bunch of equity that may never pan out in lieu of a big chunk of salary. I work with a lot of folks that have been burned with promises of millions after the IPO only to be stuck with a bunch of out of the money options. There's lots of ways to go about your overall compensation. Maybe you're looking for 140K a year but they can't swing that... would you take 115K a year with a structured bonus plan based on company performance? What about 130K but they give you 2 extra weeks of vacation If I was in your shoes, and I'm not, and they pushed the salary range issue again, I would say something like "I like to evaluate the overall compensation package, but I've researched simliar positions in the Bay Area and I feel like 140,000 a year is where I'd like to be, or whatever your number is.
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Nov 5, 2014 01:17
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skipdogg posted:I personally prefer to evaluate the 'overall compensation package' as PTO, Health Benefits, and the working environment is more important to me than my total cash compensation at this point in my career. I would gladly take 10K less to work somewhere I get more vacation time and have flexible hours vs. the standard 1 or 2 weeks vacation and 8 to 5 hours. Yep, this. If you're not comparing and negotiating on total comp then you're doing it wrong. Base salary is only one (albeit large) piece of the puzzle, and though frequently the easiest to negotiate on is not the only thing to negotiate on. Vacation time is very valuable, I'd personally take a decent base salary hit for more vacation time. What about sick time? Does the company lump vacation and sick time together into just "PTO"? If they're trendy and have "unlimited" vacation/sick policies, is the culture such that you can actually ever take vacation? Does the company offer a 401k or similar? How much do they match? How long before matches fully vest? Is the 401k custodian any good, or is it full of lovely funds? How much of the cost of health/dental/vision insurance does the company cover - all, some, or none? Are the plan options actually any good? This can be a very "real money" difference, on the order of hundreds of dollars per month. Is there profit sharing or some other structured bonus plan? Is there even profit to share? Are the bonus targets achievable? Is there an ESPP if its a public company? If so, what are the rules and restrictions? Is it a good discount? How long do you have to hold before you sell? In most cases, startup equity is worth about as much as a roll of toilet paper. It's a long shot gamble on 1) the company succeeding and having some sort of liquidity event, and 2) your measly equity stake not getting diluted to hell before that liquidity event. A larger salary today is worth much more than a gamble on equity. Unless you're a co-founder or a VC you're probably getting the short end of the stick on equity. What about other fringe benefits? Free transit pass? Subsidized daycare? Flexible hours? Short commute? Catered meals? Quality of location/office/equipment/culture?
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Nov 5, 2014 01:32
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Guinness posted:Yep, this. If you're not comparing and negotiating on total comp then you're doing it wrong. Base salary is only one (albeit large) piece of the puzzle, and though frequently the easiest to negotiate on is not the only thing to negotiate on. Thirding this. Evaluate the whole package. I recently got a new job with a handsome pay raise, but traded a 15 minute one-way stress-free commute for a 30 minute crap one. It turns out that this gets to me more than I expected, and I'd happily suffer a decrease in pay if it meant I got an easier commute.
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Nov 5, 2014 10:45
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I feel like I've thrown away an opportunity and I'm pretty stressed out by that. My situation is this: I'm in Poland, which has a very low median wage. I definitely want to emigrate. I'm a recent graduate, no work experience other than a very short internship. I apply to a lot of companies in the UK especially, and have flown out for assessment centres a couple times. This may seem ambitious, but for someone with just a Bachelors rather than a Masters it's actually way easier to get a job in the UK than it is in Poland. I'd rather start working now and maybe get an MBA in the future rather than going straight into a Masters. Back in July I applied, internationally and in English for a graduate scheme at a big company. Recently they called me from their office in Poland, which took me by surprise. I did a 45 minute telephone interview, which I think went really well until the end. They asked for a salary expectation. They framed it as not being a starting point for negotiation, but just a reference to see if in the event they like me as a candidate they can afford to hire me or if I'd reject the offer they'd be prepared to make. I don't entirely believe that and I do think it's going to be a starting point of negotiation. Here's where the issue lies. Currently I'm in Poland. The scheme is a 2 year contract on a fixed salary, and has 3 international rotations. I tried to deflect the question, said it's difficult to estimate because of that and also I'd need to have a look at the complete benefits package - all I know is they supposedly pay for housing during the international placements - and so on. They were adamant and said they cannot progress me unless I give out a number. I said that with it being an international placement, I'd expect a salary competitive with similar positions in the UK, and said what that number usually is. The salary range for a graduate in that kind of position is usually 22-30k pounds a year, but most in the upper range of that. I gave out that number, and they asked me for monthly in Polish currency. I was starting to panic a bit at that point, so I threw out a number of 6k PLN gross monthly. The thing is, that it's ridiculously low in the UK but ridiculously high in Poland. It comes out to 11k pounds a year in the UK, which is far below minimum wage. I had said 30 and then due to panic miscalculated to 11. That kind of error is embarrassing for a financial position. On the other hand, it's ridiculously high in Poland, about 1,5k PLN a month over total median wage, not to mention that it would be my first job. I'm supposed to hear back by the 7th about possibly getting an invite to the assessment center. I'm concerned that since the hiring will be done by Polish people, they might still scoff at the number I gave and not progress my application. I'm probably stressing out way too much, but I had to vent. Sorry if it's incoherent.
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Nov 5, 2014 12:28
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You've learned a good lesson, which is that you should probably know what you value the job at before you start interviewing.
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Nov 5, 2014 14:48
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Skier posted:Of the companies I'm looking at, one isn't a standard software engineer/developer role: it's a mix of software engineering, architecture, leadership and coaching and greatly appeals to me. So far the interview process is going awesome but I've already punted twice on answering what my salary requirements are. Since I came to them, I don't want to be pushy about them giving a range first. But should I let them do that? In order of goodness you should consider your options: 1. Getting an offered number from them. 2. Offering them a number that will make you overjoyed to work there. . . . 3,947,862. Telling them what you presently make. My personal rule is if some employer comes to me, they must make me an offer. If I apply to an employer, I'll try and get them to offer but will provide a number if pressed lightly. A range is a salary number where you try to lie to yourself about how it will be interpreted; when you say a range the employer hears the lowest number in the range and you fixate on the highest. Just say one number, and one number that you're happy to make. When and where numbers come into play can signal some things, e.g. if during an initial interview they start asking about salary requirements, they probably are prioritizing their hiring budget over the quality of their candidates. If they wait until it's about time to extend an offer, they probably want to focus on who they get in the door more than their budget. Neither is objectively better. If they want you to relocate, then you definitely want to pick a salary based on SF comparables. Otherwise you should start off with SF comps but weigh remote work vs. salary. Remote working is awesome. Things like PTO, comped health care, etc. are important to factor in, but I don't put much value on equity options (I've gotten equity at 3 companies and I still have to work). From all accounts "unlimited vacation" is code for "no vacation at all! BWAHAHAH!" It sounds like you're interviewing for more or less my job (but not at my company), and I'll tell you that doing it well is rewarding but will start to push on skills you probably haven't been exercising as much as your development chops. That transition can be a little maddening, but if you can successfully pull it off don't for an instant sell yourself short as there's not a ton of people who can do it.
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Nov 5, 2014 15:07
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:From all accounts "unlimited vacation" is code for "no vacation at all! BWAHAHAH!" Just chiming in to say this will be accurate in 99 out of 100 cases, where "Unlimited PTO" translates to "You'll have no opportunity to use any vacation time, and when you burn out and quit after a year of 70 hour weeks we don't have to cash out 3 weeks of accrued PTO."
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Nov 8, 2014 03:19
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Glad I didn't put out a number first: the verbal offer I received last week was $10k/year higher than what I would have said. We juggled the base/bonus values around to land where both parties are happy. Today I received the written offer and I plan on accepting. With full bonus it's 50% more pay than the position I left in October, 23% more than that pulled offer from weeks ago and it's something I'm sure I'll enjoy. Base pay is $20k a year more than that pulled offer's base. Sounds like having it pulled was dodging a bullet, not putting one in my foot. Thanks, negotiation thread, you're the best! 
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Nov 11, 2014 21:29
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Skier posted:Glad I didn't put out a number first: the verbal offer I received last week was $10k/year higher than what I would have said.   Glad to hear our advice worked for you!
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Nov 11, 2014 21:51
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Skier posted:Glad I didn't put out a number first: the verbal offer I received last week was $10k/year higher than what I would have said. 
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Nov 12, 2014 16:35
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Skier posted:Glad I didn't put out a number first: the verbal offer I received last week was $10k/year higher than what I would have said.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:46
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So, I'm running into a bit of a wall when it comes to revealing a number first these days. I'm getting contacted by a good number of recruiters now that I've updated my LinkedIn and in the phone screen they've all asked for an expected range and my go-to deflection before I got the position i'm in now is no longer working at holding them off. They always couch it in not wanting to waste anyone's time in case they can't offer what I'm looking for. I've been acquiescing and giving a range that I'd be happy with, but I don't know if I'm lowballing myself since it's in an area I'm not extremely familiar with and I'm not sure how to find out a market rate for this kind of position. It's not an uncommon one, but it goes by different titles at different companies with variable responsibilities. Any advice?
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Nov 14, 2014 01:52
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Chaotic Flame posted:So, I'm running into a bit of a wall when it comes to revealing a number first these days.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:41
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I don't think there's much benefit from not telling a third party recruiter what you're looking for. From the ones I've worked with on the hiring side they didn't just blurt out "he wants $x amount".
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Nov 14, 2014 20:31
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Uranium 235 posted:Remember, these recruiters are reaching out to you. Instead of giving them a range, ask them for a range that they can offer. That is true, though I took that approach and was met with a "not allowed to disclose the range" from several of them. Didn't try with all though. Harry posted:I don't think there's much benefit from not telling a third party recruiter what you're looking for. From the ones I've worked with on the hiring side they didn't just blurt out "he wants $x amount". Sorry, I should have clarified that these are all internal recruiters. I wouldn't have an issue giving out a range for a third party recruiter since they work for you and get paid based on your eventual salary, right?
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Nov 14, 2014 22:00
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Chaotic Flame posted:That is true, though I took that approach and was met with a "not allowed to disclose the range" from several of them. Didn't try with all though. Yes, the more you make the more they make is how it usually works.
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Nov 14, 2014 22:09
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Chaotic Flame posted:So, I'm running into a bit of a wall when it comes to revealing a number first these days. If you don't need a new job, call their bluff. I've had recruiters try to pull this move on me. "We want to know the range so we're not wasting anyone's time." "Okay, tell me what your range is and I will tell you if it's worth pursuing further." "<number>" Two things can happen, they give you near the top end of what their client will pay, or they balk. Another option is to give a significantly high number, outside what you're conceiving of as your range. Take the top of your range, add a tenth on that, and quote that figure. You've now anchored the discussion outside the top of your range, and you might get in excess of what you were looking for. If they're contacting you, they probably are having difficulty hiring such that just posting availability is not sufficient to get people in the door. You're negotiating from a position of strength, consequently, so remember to use it.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:17
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Discussions for 2015 compensation are starting soon at work. I assume I should be naming a number if I want a raise, right?
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Nov 18, 2014 03:26
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Xandu posted:Discussions for 2015 compensation are starting soon at work. I assume I should be naming a number if I want a raise, right? You need to go at least find out about the process and when you your manager has influence into it. At some companies the window for managers to input recommendations is already about to close, so you should hurry.
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Nov 18, 2014 03:55
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Anyone have any advice or information for negotiating a severance package? They are offering me more than the minimum mandated by law, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.
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Nov 18, 2014 20:03
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Having just gone through that all I could negotiate was if they are offering you any services (for example they offered me an outplacement service) that you don't intend to use, you might but probably won't be able to turn that into more money.
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Nov 18, 2014 21:58
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Pieces posted:Anyone have any advice or information for negotiating a severance package? They are offering me more than the minimum mandated by law, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask. I did this a while back and got mine increased by about 15% in value. Here are the things that I would suggest: * get a lawyer. Seriously. Even if they never talk to your former employer the advice about what terms are standard based on the precedents (not just statute) in your jurisdiction can be immensely helpful. If your lawyer engages directly in negotiation they may ask for a percentage of any increase in package they get you, but you can usually negotiate this, and it's probably worth it anyways. * do some research. Knowing what things are worth is really important. Depending on your jurisdiction, industry and seniority the rules can be very different. For example senior executives can be entitled to years of salary because of the difficulty in finding similar employment while unskilled labour will generally get little if anything beyond statutory minimums. In the career I was in I got a month per year of service plusa couple extra months due to some extenuating circumstances. * focus on the facts. Your former employer does not give a poo poo about your dog or sick grandma or whatever. Give specific reference to precedent settlements (if you have it) * If you care even a little bit about working for companies that care what your former employer thinks, be very circumspect in whether you get aggressive and suggest unfair termination / threaten litigation. Many companies will go 'scorched earth' if they sense litigation is coming and dredge up every real or imagined negative thing they can, as well as torch previous negotiations in an attempt to move the goalposts before a court settlement, if it happens.
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Nov 18, 2014 22:59
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Kalenn Istarion posted:I did this a while back and got mine increased by about 15% in value. Here are the things that I would suggest: Thanks, I've already been in touch with a couple of law firms and provided them with some details for pre-lim review of the severance package. I've been researching the better part of the day and while the offer is not 'bad' (2 weeks per year, I've been there ~2.5 years), I feel like I can push for 1 month / year, as well as pro-rated bonus and for some benefit terms. I'm young and employable (engineering degree, certification in project management) so I'd be okay dropping the benefits terms (no dependents) if I can work additional $$. Is it acceptable to simply send an email or call the HR representative assigned to my termination (we were informed of layoffs due to downsizing / "organizational restructuring") with my points and associated requests with a total dollar figure? I don't mind paying for a lawyer but the few quotes I got seemed quite high ($600 for initial severance package review + 20% of the net difference).
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Nov 19, 2014 01:42
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Pieces posted:Thanks, I've already been in touch with a couple of law firms and provided them with some details for pre-lim review of the severance package. It really really depends on your industry and personal situation. My deal included full pro rata bonus and benefits over the relevant period, that may not always be available. In my case I had just returned from a serious illness and so could have probably been successful in a lawsuit if they hadn't started out relatively generous and I thought the tradeoff of being potentially blackballed in the industry not worth it. As I mentioned, be factual and specific. My initial response was something like this: [HR Person], I have reviewed the terms of the proposed severance agreement and have the following concerns: - [My research / lawyer] has indicated that a severance [and/or notice] amount of 1 month per year of service would be more appropriate to my situation, and that this severance amount should include [any pro rated bonus / continuation of benefits / compensation for any terminated benefits]. Based on the [letter] you provided, this does not appear to be the case. Can you provide me with a calculation of the proposed settlement amount? - [anything else that you discover from your / lawyer's review of the letter] Thank you [you] -------- Very direct but non-confrontational. I'd avoid trying to directly redraft the letter unless you have specific experience with employment legal language. Letting the company be the primary drafter gives you some small amount of additional legal protection should any of the wording later be litigated and determined to be unclear (unclear language is generally determined against the interest of the drafter). What I did was some initial negotiation to get the package revised as far as I could (an extra month of severance and confirmation of a relocation deal I had at the time), and then get the lawyer involved to make sure there wasn't anything dangerous that i'd missed. They got probably another 5% in value as well as some soft clauses that could have hampered my ability to get certain jobs. Just so you're aware, your lawyer will likely charge you an hourly rate, so your fee will be the higher of their calculated hourly charges or the % increase amount, although you can work a deal where they take full risk on increases. In my case, the hourly charges ended up being more than the additional increase negotiated by the lawyer I hired, due in part to my initial negotiation as well as the fact that I hired a fairly pricey lawyer based on their reputation in my industry (they've made their name suing companies like the one I used to work for so HR departments tend to negotiate very generously with them). Another rule which we've stated in regards to negotiating new job offers but bears repeating: don't negotiate piecemeal. Assign a value as far as possible to the entire offered package and negotiate it as a single item. This way you are less likely to get nickled and dimed on specific clauses. Hope that helps!
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Nov 19, 2014 05:31
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Is it typical to negotiate salary for a promotion? If so, how does it differ from negotiating during the hiring stage? I'm looking at possibly getting promoted, not quite certain yet, but I figure they're gonna lowball me pretty hard. In order for me to be making the average salary for the area for the position I'm looking to be promoted into, they're going to have to almost double my salary. There's also another significant responsibility on top of the position that makes it unique, and thus more valuable. However, we've just had several layoffs and everyone is looking to cut where they can. I don't want to make myself a target by trying to get paid a lot more, but I don't want to get shafted. I had recently saved the company over $3,000,000 at a recent event so I've got some leverage, but I don't know how far I can push my luck.
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Nov 19, 2014 15:38
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You definitely should attempt to negotiate salary when you get promoted as it's one of the few times you can get a large raise. I wouldn't expect to make the average in that position as the company will take the stance that you don't have the same experience as the average person in that position as you are just being promoted and in most cases you don't have a lot of leverage. One advantage you probably have is knowing the salary range of the position.
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Nov 19, 2014 16:42
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Kalenn Istarion posted:It really really depends on your industry and personal situation. My deal included full pro rata bonus and benefits over the relevant period, that may not always be available. In my case I had just returned from a serious illness and so could have probably been successful in a lawsuit if they hadn't started out relatively generous and I thought the tradeoff of being potentially blackballed in the industry not worth it. Thank you! I took your advice into consideration when drafting an email to my HR department to ask for more. I requested a single dollar figure and stated the reasoning behind the points. On a side note I went to the assigned 'post-termination career bridging' training that was offered and ran into a co-worker that was laid off 2 weeks ago, and she told me that she had successfully went back to the company citing the holiday season / slow hiring season as one of her reasons as well and they had bumped up her amount. I'll update when I hear back.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:36
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Pieces posted:Thank you! I took your advice into consideration when drafting an email to my HR department to ask for more. I requested a single dollar figure and stated the reasoning behind the points. Good luck!
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Nov 19, 2014 22:49
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I'm interviewing with what can only be described as a startup next week. They seem to be growing and have funding, and the founders have a good track record, but they still haven't sold a single unit (ran a very successful Indiegogo campaign though.) Any tips for what to expect? Are startups generally more stingy with salary? Good questions I should ask?
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Nov 21, 2014 18:41
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bolind posted:I'm interviewing with what can only be described as a startup next week. They seem to be growing and have funding, and the founders have a good track record, but they still haven't sold a single unit (ran a very successful Indiegogo campaign though.) If you're senior enough you have a reasonable basis to get information about the overall business plan. You will need to be prepared to take a somewhat lower salary (especially since they're crows-funded) but could get very lucrative equity. Make sure if the equity is option based that you use an option value calculator to try to estimate what it's worth.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:06
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Be sure to ask for shares outstanding and how much of that is held by VCs when you're discussing equity. Some places will try to not tell you how much is outstanding but that's shady as gently caress and should be a big red flag.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:38
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Thank you thread for existing. Used some of the advice in this thread over the past few weeks and got an offer well above what I'd been gearing up to expect. So thanks!
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Nov 22, 2014 15:11
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lookslikerain posted:Thank you thread for existing. Mind providing any details? Examples are really helpful for people to see, in as much detail as you're willing to share.
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Nov 22, 2014 15:18
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I've got a question that isn't about an offer per se, but this seems like a fitting place to ask. I've been offered a new job with a start date of Monday, January 5. My current company requires 2 weeks notice to remain in good standing (eligible for rehire, etc.). They also reserve the right to can me on the spot when I turn in my leave, but I doubt that they would. Even if they do it's survivable from a financial perspective, although it would suck. What should I tell them my last day is? I'm a non-exempt full time employee who works a typical M-F schedule plus occasional weekends as needed. Do I tell them on Mon 12/22 that my last day is Sun 1/4? My concern is that they might not want to pay me for a few days of a new pay period, including Jan 1 (company holiday) and Jan 3-4 (weekend) and simply tell me that my last day is Dec 31. Do I tell them on Dec 17 that my last day is Dec 31 and eat the 4 days' salary? I'm not sure how that would impact my health insurance, either.
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Nov 25, 2014 18:15
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Easychair Bootson posted:I've got a question that isn't about an offer per se, but this seems like a fitting place to ask. I've been offered a new job with a start date of Monday, January 5. My current company requires 2 weeks notice to remain in good standing (eligible for rehire, etc.). They also reserve the right to can me on the spot when I turn in my leave, but I doubt that they would. Even if they do it's survivable from a financial perspective, although it would suck. What do you have to lose be telling them on the 22nd? Maybe I'm not understanding the difference, but it seems like there is no downside to telling them on the 22nd and the upside is that you may get paid for more days.
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Nov 25, 2014 18:37
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If they tell you to leave they still can't short circuit notice periods. You will get paid for you 2 weeks notice and may not need to work the holidays. Win for you i'd say.
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Nov 25, 2014 19:08
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asur posted:What do you have to lose be telling them on the 22nd? Maybe I'm not understanding the difference, but it seems like there is no downside to telling them on the 22nd and the upside is that you may get paid for more days. Kalenn Istarion posted:If they tell you to leave they still can't short circuit notice periods. You will get paid for you 2 weeks notice and may not need to work the holidays. Win for you i'd say.
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Nov 25, 2014 19:21
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Easychair Bootson posted:I'm sure this isn't correct per company policy, and almost sure it's not correct legally. I'm employed at-will. When I put in my notice there's no reason that they can't tell me that they're terminating my employment immediately. Yeah, pretty sure they don't have to pay you if they decide to terminate you immediately. However, at established companies that may have privacy/security/clearance reasons to immediately terminate an employee that gives notice, it is not uncommon to still pay them out for the last 2 weeks despite them not actually 'working' there anymore. But they are legally required to pay you out for any accrued vacation time or bonuses that are on the books but not paid out yet.
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Nov 25, 2014 19:28
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Easychair Bootson posted:Yeah, I think you're right. I can't come up with a good reason to put in notice on the 17th and have my last day be the 31st. I don't know the rules as well in the states, so sorry if that's incorrect. In Canada and many other countries, there are statutory minimum notice periods that a company has to pay even on termination not for cause. If you provide notice, the company doesn't have to pay you statutory notice but they do need to pay out the notice you provided (assuming it's less than statutory) even if they don't physically want you in the office.
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Nov 25, 2014 19:59
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