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Dirk the Average posted:You are correct. An indictment just means that they would have gone to trial. Also, for non-cops, less than 1% of attempts to get an indictment fail. For cops it's closer to 99%. There's such a huge difference in the way these charges are handled that it's just mindboggling.
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Nov 26, 2014 09:17
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Xyven posted:Also, for non-cops, less than 1% of attempts to get an indictment fail. For cops it's closer to 99%. There's such a huge difference in the way these charges are handled that it's just mindboggling. source?
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Nov 26, 2014 09:21
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Discendo Vox posted:source? http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/ "U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them." The data is less clear on cops, but "in Dallas, grand juries reviewed 81 shootings between 2008 and 2012 and returned just one indictment." And of course these are comparing federal cases to local, but this is more than enough evidence in my eyes to show a significant difference in how charges are treated.
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Nov 26, 2014 09:24
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Xyven posted:http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/ You're also comparing strictly to one local jurisdiction, that's a relatively small n, on a narrower set of charges that involve a different standard (538 conflating all those samples and studies is really a word salad of an article). That said, I strongly suspect there are massive differences in successful indictment rate between federal and lower level prosecutions- the federal prosecutory structure is much pickier in case selection. From further in the same article: "The third possible explanation [after juror and prosecutorial bias] is more benign. Ordinarily, prosecutors only bring a case if they think they can get an indictment. But in high-profile cases such as police shootings, they may feel public pressure to bring charges even if they think they have a weak case." The prosecutor's office released their entire body of evidence from the grand jury- if you want a set of sources to use in arguing the outcome of the case, those documents are your best bet. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Nov 26, 2014 |
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Nov 26, 2014 09:27
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If I started unfriending every single person on Facebook who openly expressed racist views, I would lose many of my Israeli friends. And that would be a bad thing because... ?
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Nov 26, 2014 10:34
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Poizen Jam posted:Sorry, allegedly murdered. God forbid I let a bit of bias slip. I mean I hope you can see why it's incredibly frustrating the grand jury decided the incident wasn't worth a full court case/investigation. Unless I really misunderstand American law here, which is possible, I don't think an indictment is a guilty verdict; saying there's no probable cause at all is just bullshit. It was never murder. This is an odd situation where a grand jury received a lot more evidence than it typically receives and the evidence gives us little to no probable cause to bat this poo poo out around for the next few years for a cop defending himself. I'm sorry no one's getting their feel good justice from this but the evidence is pretty indicative that Brown hosed up pretty bad. Running the cop in the muck for the next year for defending himself and confronting a violent suspect does no one any good. Cops need to meet force with force sometimes, I wish Brown wasn't dead but you don't do hit a cop multiple times and then get wishy washy when it comes to surrendering.
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Nov 26, 2014 14:24
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RavenKrows posted:It was never murder. This is an odd situation where a grand jury received a lot more evidence than it typically receives and the evidence gives us little to no probable cause to bat this poo poo out around for the next few years for a cop defending himself. I'm sorry no one's getting their feel good justice from this but the evidence is pretty indicative that Brown hosed up pretty bad. Running the cop in the muck for the next year for defending himself and confronting a violent suspect does no one any good. Cops need to meet force with force sometimes, I wish Brown wasn't dead but you don't do hit a cop multiple times and then get wishy washy when it comes to surrendering. Hitting a cop and then attempting to surrender is now punishable by summary execution. OK buddy, that's a reasonable stance to take. (also the cop is lying about what happened)
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Nov 26, 2014 14:27
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whitepeople.txt
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Nov 26, 2014 14:28
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Discendo Vox posted:? I see the problem now. America won independence through violence and as a result has never achieved permanent peace. On the other hand, countries like Canada and Australia that won independence peacefully are perfectly fine doing things like implementing gun control, because they never even had a temporary victory as a result of violence and as a result are not involved in a descending spiral ending in destruction for all.
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Nov 26, 2014 14:42
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Xyven posted:Hitting a cop and then attempting to surrender is now punishable by summary execution. OK buddy, that's a reasonable stance to take. Not at all what happened but you don't care about that anyways. You've made your series of events based on what you wished happened and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change it.
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Nov 26, 2014 14:45
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RavenKrows posted:Not at all what happened but you don't care about that anyways. You've made your series of events based on what you wished happened and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change it. You should read his post because he's not saying he agrees with that assessment.
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Nov 26, 2014 14:50
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ErIog posted:You should read his post because he's not saying he agrees with that assessment. ErIog posted:You should read his post because he's not saying he agrees with that assessment. Yes he isn't, though it is odder to see a Wilson supporter. Ballsy.
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Nov 26, 2014 15:32
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Have you not been reading the Ferguson thread? There's a lot if them.
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Nov 26, 2014 15:35
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I don't accept that rioting/looting is always bad. Yes, it's morally wrong in the abstract, but so is killing, and almost nobody is about to condemn war veterans for committing that sin. Black people rioted throughout the 1960s, all across the country. It wasn't all nice church-going folks in their Sunday best peacefully marching and getting the dogs set on them, like MLK-quoting historical revisionists would like you to believe. Black people hosed some poo poo up. When they stopped, poo poo stopped getting better for them, and started getting worse. If these riots weren't going on nobody (except goons and social justice-minded people) would even be talking about the Brown shooting, and there would have been far less coverage of police brutality and murder that has occurred since it happened. When I hear "stop rioting", I hear "just shut up and pretend everything's fine; let the system keep going the way it is." Nobody is being injured, and property is replaceable. Black lives are not. "The system" has proven itself to be very, very good at ignoring and quelling peaceful protest. It doesn't really know what the gently caress to do right now, does it? Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 26, 2014 |
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Nov 26, 2014 16:28
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Faustian Bargain posted:Help me. I think both of these are awful so I'm sure I'm misreading it. If you define the extremes, the middle can be loving anywhere. US centrists are a particularly obvious example of people who claim to be in the middle but are pretty far right.
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Nov 26, 2014 16:51
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Poizen Jam posted:gently caress anyone who tries to argue white people are incapable of acting like 'savages' over stupid poo poo. White people riot over loving sports and we're to believe the Ferguson rioters are in the wrong when a member of their community is murdered? I was told yesterday by a friend that those instances are different because white people are "celebrating" something and that somehow makes it OK. They didn't elaborate on that, surprisingly. Of course, the real reason is "blacks  " but there's one way they're trying to justify it.I don't post in D&D because I'm poo poo in a debate and that conversation yesterday caused me to just freeze entirely, but after about 20 minutes of hearing "thugs" and "the 'good' ones" I was just done. We all know that "thugs" means N's and "the 'good' ones" mean the less-uppity N's.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:10
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Man, "thugs" and "the good ones" are bad enough on their own but once you're using the two together you're not really coding your racism at all anymore.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:20
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Discendo Vox posted:? MLK posted:Well, I would say this: we don't have long. The mood of the Negro community now is one of urgency, one of saying that we aren't going to wait. That we've got to have our freedom. We've waited too long. So that I would say that every summer we're going to have this kind of vigorous protest. My hope is that it will be non-violent. I would hope that we can avoid riots because riots are self-defeating and socially destructive. I would hope that we can avoid riots, but that we would be as militant and as determined next summer and through the winter as we have been this summer. And I think the answer about how long it will take will depend on the federal government, on the city halls of our various cities, and on White America to a large extent. This is where we are at this point, and I think White America will determine how long it will be and which way we go in the future. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mlk-a-riot-is-the-language-of-the-unheard/ Yeah, saying he never repudiated violence was maybe overly simplistic. But at the same time, he understood why the rioters were doing what they were doing, what it was a reflection of, and who the burden of ending it actually laid upon.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:33
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Mellow Seas posted:Man, "thugs" and "the good ones" are bad enough on their own but once you're using the two together you're not really coding your racism at all anymore. I also got to hear about how black people are inherently more violent than white people and that we all have the exact same opportunities so it really comes down to personal choice, you see, and black people CHOOSE to be thugs (but not the good ones, you see). If this conversation was supposed to have coded racism, it was easily cracked with a cheap decoder ring. Those points aren't anything this thread hasn't come up against a thousand times, but the events in Ferguson have given people like that license to let it all hang out. Had I been in a clearer state of mind, I would've just goaded them into saying the N-word. If we're going to do this, let's not beat around the bush.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:40
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Poizen Jam posted:Sorry, allegedly murdered. God forbid I let a bit of bias slip. I mean I hope you can see why it's incredibly frustrating the grand jury decided the incident wasn't worth a full court case/investigation. Unless I really misunderstand American law here, which is possible, I don't think an indictment is a guilty verdict; saying there's no probable cause at all is just bullshit. Don't worry about saying alleged as the officer has admitting to shooting and killing him. It's more a question of motive, not if he actually did the shooting. And since this isn't a court of law, you can say murder instead of manslaughter as well!
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Nov 26, 2014 17:53
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Techno Remix posted:but the events in Ferguson have given people like that license to let it all hang out. Dunno about license - your average racist doesn't think about race all that often. It's only when they're provoked or the topic comes up as a mass national point of interest that they go "Hmm, I guess blacks are pretty violent".
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Nov 26, 2014 17:53
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1stGear posted:http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mlk-a-riot-is-the-language-of-the-unheard/ MLK addressed riots as well MLK, Grosse Point 1968 posted:Now I wanted to say something about the fact that we have lived over these last two or three summers with agony and we have seen our cities going up in flames. And I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:58
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Dunno about license - your average racist doesn't think about race all that often. It's only when they're provoked or the topic comes up as a mass national point of interest that they go "Hmm, I guess blacks are pretty violent". You're right, "license" probably wasn't the right word. I like your explanation better.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:03
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The fallout from Ferguson seems to have driven the racists out of hiding. A friend of mine posted the cutest picture of her cousin, who happens to be an african-american toddler. Some random racist from her hometown (Monroe, LA) decides this is a perfect opportunity to rant about "nigers".  Right now we're debating reporting the posts to her workplace.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:09
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Tequila25 posted:The fallout from Ferguson seems to have driven the racists out of hiding. A friend of mine posted the cutest picture of her cousin, who happens to be an african-american toddler. Please, please do
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Nov 26, 2014 18:10
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VitalSigns posted:whitepeople.txt You mean noted Socialist, MLK Jr.? You're right. He would have thought Al Sharpton wasn't strong enough for the cause.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:15
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Black people destroyed black businesses, racism is over!
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Nov 26, 2014 18:21
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Tequila25 posted:horrors Well. I didn't think anything in D&D would have the power to make me tear up, but there you have it.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:21
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Tequila25 posted:The fallout from Ferguson seems to have driven the racists out of hiding. A friend of mine posted the cutest picture of her cousin, who happens to be an african-american toddler.  I can't imagine what it's like posting a picture of a cute kid and getting that. What a horrible human being, I hope she rots in hell. How can you loving think that's remotely okay or acceptable? How?
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Nov 26, 2014 18:24
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:
Her hatred of Niger knows no bounds.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:26
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Neowyrm posted:Her hatred of Niger knows no bounds. Nigers dude. You spelled it wrong.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:29
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RavenKrows posted:It was never murder. This is an odd situation where a grand jury received a lot more evidence than it typically receives and the evidence gives us little to no probable cause to bat this poo poo out around for the next few years for a cop defending himself. I'm sorry no one's getting their feel good justice from this but the evidence is pretty indicative that Brown hosed up pretty bad. Running the cop in the muck for the next year for defending himself and confronting a violent suspect does no one any good. Cops need to meet force with force sometimes, I wish Brown wasn't dead but you don't do hit a cop multiple times and then get wishy washy when it comes to surrendering. I met a guy who was high on meth and shoved a cop through a plate glass window and got arrested without getting shot. Yeah, he was white.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:30
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Black people should act more in line with the teachings of the Reverand Martin Luther King who preached compassion, strength through wisdom, and non-violence as the answer. And who was shot in the loving face anyway.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:33
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Tequila25 posted:The fallout from Ferguson seems to have driven the racists out of hiding. A friend of mine posted the cutest picture of her cousin, who happens to be an african-american toddler. Jesus loving Christ.  The escalation from thinly veiled racism to frothing Klan speech is amazing. It's almost refreshing to someone legitimately and openly racist instead of the usual "The black culture has problems" bullshit.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:35
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MLK wasn't a fan of rioting, but knew it was necessary when "peaceful protest" wouldn't grab the attention of others. JFK thought the same way with his quote "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." No one would care about what's happening in Ferguson if the protestors were silent about it.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:36
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Tequila25 posted:Right now we're debating reporting the posts to her workplace. Please loving do.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:38
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Tequila25 posted:Right now we're debating reporting the posts to her workplace. You've got the support of internet strangers. loving do it.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:47
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It's sad. Basically everyone I knew before college is posting the worst poo poo, including my first real girlfriend who I'm not going to give the attention who keeps posting random tweets from black people that say stuff like "shut up honkey" and saying "MAKES U THINK IF WE NEED TO GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS HUH?" Everyone else is posting "White People Rioting Over Stupid poo poo." I have police friends and family still. They've all been quiet. One has posted one thing in the past day: a story about their first hired female chief and a story about a mutual cop friend talking a suicidal man down off a bridge. Other than that, they've stayed quiet. Basically the dumbshits from high school just never change, I guess.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:54
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So this was posted in relation to a Police officer putting down a deer that had been paralyzed somehow and was stuck crawling through a creek near my College's Campus: quote:ANTLERS UP DONT SHOOT! ANTLERS UP DONT SHOOT! ANTLERS UP DONT SHOOT! we need to have a national discussion about police brutalization. who are you calling 'white tailed'? horned lives matter. etc It's depressingly popular.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:59
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Luckily most of my friends are normal, non-racist adults but I do have a couple of high scool acquaintances coming out of the woodwork. Against my better judgment, I touched the poop and mocked one because he boldly claimed that Fox News is "the only network with balls" and that they "don't twist poo poo, they just give you the truth." I was then told that "btw I know that lots of people disagree with you but they're too scared to speak up, so I have to look like the racist for all of them."  Dear fellow white people: what the gently caress is wrong with you?
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Nov 26, 2014 19:02
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