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FAUXTON posted:I heard there are camps out East of here where they take people to get murdered en masse but let's be real about this Frank girl - she was a fugitive after all. I agree that things really do need to change, but look, she was no angel. Laws are laws, after all. Incapable of being used for anything but the promotion of true, unseeing, unfeeling, robotic justice.
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Nov 27, 2014 12:46
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GreyPowerVan posted:Laws are laws, after all. Incapable of being used for anything but the promotion of true, unseeing, unfeeling, robotic justice. It's the process, we'd be animals living in the woods without it!
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Nov 27, 2014 12:47
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GreyPowerVan posted:Laws are laws, after all. Incapable of being used for anything but the promotion of true, unseeing, unfeeling, robotic justice. I'm just saying that if you go and hide from the law in your Dutch friend's shop there are consequences. If she'd just turned herself in this might not have happened.
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Nov 27, 2014 12:57
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Just to get this out of the way: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/police-shootings-are-second-most-common-homicide-utah-report-says-n255261 Article posted:
gently caress cops. "Police are trained and expected to react to deadly threats. As many deadly threats emerge is the exact amount of times police will respond," said Adams, who this summer shot and wounded a man who pointed a fake gun at him. "The onus is on the person being arrested to stop trying to assault and kill police officers and the innocent public.” They know they kill innocent people, but they haven't adapted. They still have a completely unjustified view of society. All they have to say is they were scared, and they can kill anyone. (minorities for free). gently caress cops. This is a gem: "While Utah has one of the nation’s lowest violent crime rates, the Tribune examination of FBI statistics found Utah had the nation’s 10th highest rate of reported assaults on police officer." Who is reporting that? Cops. lol. I'm so scared, can I shoot someone? YES! gently caress Cops. Pohl fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 13:15
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Is there an archive being developed of questionable things from the grand jury or something? The last time I was reading there was some sort of weird diary and I imagine there has been a ton more in the thousand+ posts that I missed.
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Nov 27, 2014 13:52
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Strongylocentrotus posted:That would be an odd omission, to put it mildly. Because both had their reactions recorded digitally within a minute or two after Brown's death, those original reactions should represent the most "uncontaminated" of all the witness statements. So one would think those three people ought to be key witnesses. About Monday, my source says he's going to lay something down that, if it's brought to the right people, will make it clear the grand jury was a mistrial for a number of reasons. He's checking and confirming. Sorry, I don't want to pop it open early. It involves the jury instructions, and he wants to be sure. Warcabbit fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 13:55
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Khorre posted:I want to know what the man did 40 years ago. Witness 40 IS McCullough. (not actually true. Probably.)
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Nov 27, 2014 13:58
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Warcabbit posted:About Monday, my source says he's going to lay something down that, if it's brought to the right people, will make it clear the grand jury was a mistrial for a number of reasons. He's checking and confirming. I hope you are right and a federal case can change procedural law everywhere, not just in Missouri.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:14
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Anyone got a detailed, sourced breakdown of how McCullough sabotaged the case?
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Nov 27, 2014 14:35
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Dissecting witness statements here is basically worthless. I once witnessed a car crash and stayed around to give a statement to the police. It turned out from the initial stimulus (hearing squealing tires) to the time I looked 0.25-.5 seconds later the cars had changed orientation and way they continued to move made it appear that the victim was actually the cause of the accident. This entire incident is a case study in the importance of dash cams, body cams, and gun cams. Not long after this occurred I started working on the feasibility of a gun mounted camera that activates when drawn from the holster. Turned out another company already patented it and it's in development. The $8-12/hour security guards I train already all wear body cameras they purchase themselves to cover their asses. I've had students that were cleared of charges in less than 24 hours because the entire incident was recorded. It also makes prosecutions much more successful. This should be a wake up call to law enforcement to implement them fully for all officers and eliminate the debate about what actually happened.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:40
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Darth Walrus posted:Anyone got a detailed, sourced breakdown of how McCullough sabotaged the case? You don't really need one. The prosecutor, who's job is to provide evidence that proves his case (that charges should be filed against the subject) let his subject testify exculpatory evidence, which the prosecutor had the right to keep from the grand jury. If the prosecutor wanted to charge Wilson, it would have been very easy. "Here I present all the witnesses that basically said Brown was executed in broad dayIight." I saw a statistic that said in 2000, in federal grand juries (so not quite the same), the GJ indicted the target at a ratio of 2000:1. McCullough was defending the target when he should have been presenting only evidence against him.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:51
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Police officers don't want body cameras because they are afraid of getting into trouble by petty superiors for casual racism. e: That is what they tell you if you ask about it in GiP anyway. Miltank fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 14:52
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Dalael posted:But in the case of Mike brown, a 290 pound guy hitting Wilson in the face while he is in a prone position (sitting in a car). Anyone who has been in a fight will know that it doesn't take much to be knocked out. Sometimes it takes as little as 1 punch. I can very well understand Wilson's fears. 
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Nov 27, 2014 14:54
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Miltank posted:Police officers don't want body cameras because they are afraid of getting into trouble by petty superiors for casual racism. Even the local police union here is in favor of them because it reduces complaints against officers, and the public behaved better too when they knew they were being recorded.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:55
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A cop caught on camera had this to say:  From here: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/27/justice/ferguson-protests/ That is hilarious. Pohl fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 15:06
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As a Canadian I just watched this Lawrence O'Donnell segment on how the prosecutors presented an outdated version of the law with statutes declared unconstitutional and I'm just loving baffled. What the gently caress? Were they acting as prosecutors or were they acting as Wilson's defense attorney? How in the world can they expect people to perceive this as legitimate?
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Nov 27, 2014 15:08
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Heavy neutrino posted:As a Canadian I just watched this Lawrence O'Donnell segment on how the prosecutors presented an outdated version of the law with statutes declared unconstitutional and I'm just loving baffled. Most people don't watch legitimate news so no one cares? I'm not saying O'Donnell is legitimate, but most people will never hear anything but how black people are thugs and are rioting.
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Nov 27, 2014 15:11
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Warcabbit posted:About Monday, my source says he's going to lay something down that, if it's brought to the right people, will make it clear the grand jury was a mistrial for a number of reasons. He's checking and confirming. Please keep us updated, if you can? Happy Thanksgiving everyone Heavy neutrino posted:As a Canadian I just watched this Lawrence O'Donnell segment on how the prosecutors presented an outdated version of the law with statutes declared unconstitutional and I'm just loving baffled. Could one of the lawyers in the thread weigh in on this? Thanks heavy neutrino Armani fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 15:13
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Sharkie posted:Institutional racism and cultural problems are things that exist and can influence how cops interact with non-cops and how white people interact with black people. Or white guy Jared Leone, in which case you can break out of handcuffs, take an officer's gun, fire shots, and then just get arrested. Or white guy Warren Gladders, in which case you can commit a string of armed robberies, shoot a police officer in the chest, and still be allowed to surrender.
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Nov 27, 2014 15:38
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Heavy neutrino posted:As a Canadian I just watched this Lawrence O'Donnell segment on how the prosecutors presented an outdated version of the law with statutes declared unconstitutional and I'm just loving baffled. This and the wildly conflicting testimonies between Dorian Johnson and Darren Wilson are the most shocking aspects of this grand jury tbh. So much for being prosecutors.
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Nov 27, 2014 15:45
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Kalman posted:So that brings up something a friend pointed out - if Wilson racked his gun and then fired 12 shots, then a) there should be an un fired round somewhere in the vehicle, which was not found, and b) he was walking around with a bullet in the chamber which is loving stupid. Edit- somehow (loving autocorrect probably) changed does to doesn't Waco Panty Raid fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 15:47
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Stultus Maximus posted:Or white guy Jared Leone, in which case you can break out of handcuffs, take an officer's gun, fire shots, and then just get arrested. Serious question but are those exceptions or the rule? Surely white people have been shot by white cops.
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Nov 27, 2014 15:50
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Shaocaholica posted:Serious question but are those exceptions or the rule? Surely white people have been shot by white cops. Yes, plenty of white people have been shot by white cops. However it seems to be more common for black people to be considered a threat that can only be dealt with by lethal force. Black boys and men are seen by whites as more threatening and dangerous than white boys and men who are doing the same things.
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Nov 27, 2014 15:54
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Heavy neutrino posted:As a Canadian I just watched this Lawrence O'Donnell segment on how the prosecutors presented an outdated version of the law with statutes declared unconstitutional and I'm just loving baffled.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:01
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RodShaft posted:Can he be disbarred for this or something? Not really. I'd also like to remind everyone, especially the guy a bunch of pages back who kept talking about voting, that St. Louis County is 70% white and McCulloch does exactly the job he was elected to do: protect white people and their wealth.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:08
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Why is carrying with a round chambered loving stupid? The only person I know who doesn't carry that way literally carries with the gun in his pocket and no holster (which is probably dumb). Most people assume that if you're carrying a gun for self defense you're going to need it ready in an emergency situation Severe lack of knowledge? Also so you have the intermediate step of racking the slide to show that you REALLY mean business. If you're carrying a gun in a situation where you might have to use it, you always carry it with one in the chamber. Rest depends on the particular gun.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:08
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Before heading out to celebrate the day Native Americans saved the Puritans from their own foolishness (because Holland was too liberal so they had to cross the Atlantic), I wanted to post some twitters covering the Macy's protests: https://twitter.com/Nettaaaaaaaa https://twitter.com/phanta5magoria https://twitter.com/hashtag/StopTheParade?src=hash quote:CNN doing it's best not to show #StopTheParade or the insane police presence at the #MacysThanksgivingDayParade And remember: quote:Sara Benincasa @SaraJBenincasa
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Nov 27, 2014 16:34
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Naturally Selected posted:Severe lack of knowledge? Also so you have the intermediate step of racking the slide to show that you REALLY mean business. I don't own any guns or anything but...really? People not in a warzone/conflict area seriously carry one in the chamber for "emergency purposes"? Why is racking a slide when you need to use a gun such a tactically time-consuming maneuver? Seems dangerous to me.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:35
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Naturally Selected posted:Severe lack of knowledge? Also so you have the intermediate step of racking the slide to show that you REALLY mean business. I think the "you always have to have a round in the chamber" partly stems from this hypervigilant "warrior mindset" bullshit. Yeah it's faster, which is a double-edged sword when it comes to poorly trained police. I think that police who shoot less than 500 rounds a year should carry striker-fired pistols in condition three. Want to carry condition one? Qualify for it.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:36
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Heeyyyy, everyone remember the Peace Train? The wonderful highlight of the peaceful protesting in August when the owners of a small amusement company rolled up with their Thomas the Tank Engine lookalike and gave free rides to all? Reddit's decided it was stolen from a local mall. 
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Nov 27, 2014 16:40
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Feral Integral posted:I don't own any guns or anything but...really? People not in a warzone/conflict area seriously carry one in the chamber for "emergency purposes"? Why is racking a slide when you need to use a gun such a tactically time-consuming maneuver? Seems dangerous to me. Because the only reason you should be carrying a gun is if there's a nonzero chance of you needing to use it. (This doesn't include open carry idiots and such.) Much longer to pull it, chamber a round, then get into firing position and aim. Huge chance of mishandling or dropping the weapon while you're loving with it in a situation where your adrenaline is maxed and you need it to work NOW. This doesn't get into advanced stuff such as the difference in the motions and training required to draw and ready the weapon, etc. Considering a modern pistol, barring massive manufacturing fuckups, is as safe chambered as it is with a mag inserted, there's really no need to add extra bullshit just because. SedanChair posted:I think the "you always have to have a round in the chamber" partly stems from this hypervigilant "warrior mindset" bullshit. Yeah it's faster, which is a double-edged sword when it comes to poorly trained police. I think that police who shoot less than 500 rounds a year should carry striker-fired pistols in condition three. Want to carry condition one? Qualify for it. That's actually the opposite of what I'd want. Do you really want the undertrained guy fumble-loving with the slide while trying to draw on someone? C2 with DA/SA or DAO pistols allows for a much simpler motion and a direct-to-target draw instead. Considering the abysmal training situation, would you really spend more of it on "this is how to draw your weapon" and less on accuracy/proper use/not hitting bystanders? Also why specifically striker-fired? C3 is actually the universal one when it comes to that-no round in the chamber, gun won't shoot until you rack it. E: Also, if you're drawing your weapon, you are ready to fire by the end of the motion, doesn't matter what condition you start it in. So now you have cops that draw guns for EVERYTHING also loving with their slides/chambering rounds. And I can guarantee you a good majority of them won't be doing HSLD on-target slides or any other techniques that take a long time to use effectively, due to aforementioned lack of training. Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 16:46
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yes, plenty of white people have been shot by white cops. However it seems to be more common for black people to be considered a threat that can only be dealt with by lethal force. Black boys and men are seen by whites as more threatening and dangerous than white boys and men who are doing the same things. Well the stereotype is that white men tend to pussy out when the cops show up where as black men tend to challenge the cops more but of course I'd like to see more data points.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:46
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Shaocaholica posted:Well the stereotype is that white men tend to pussy out when the cops show up where as black men tend to challenge the cops more but of course I'd like to see more data points. http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white
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Nov 27, 2014 16:49
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Twitter user "EDMSlob," self-described "Half Centaur | Beard Pundit | Sports Fanatic," believes quote:Im anti anti-parade people. Im all for free speech/peaceful protest but dont interrupt. Just making your cause look bad All for free speech, unless it interrupts a parade. Of course, this isn't whining, just legitimate concern that the protesters aren't conveying their message effectively.  From that article: quote:Of course, although the data show that police reported that (fearing for their lives) as the cause of their actions in far greater numbers after the 1985 Supreme Court decision that said police could only justify using deadly force if the suspects posed a threat to the officer or others. From 1980 to 1984, "officer under attack" was listed as the cause for 33 percent of the deadly shootings. Twenty years later, looking at data from 2005 to 2009, "officer under attack" was cited in 62 percent xxxvii of police killings. Huh. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 16:51
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efbFeral Integral posted:I don't own any guns or anything but...really? People not in a warzone/conflict area seriously carry one in the chamber for "emergency purposes"? Why is racking a slide when you need to use a gun such a tactically time-consuming maneuver? Seems dangerous to me. Racking a slide requires time, two hands and can result in a failure to feed for what? SedanChair posted:I think the "you always have to have a round in the chamber" partly stems from this hypervigilant "warrior mindset" bullshit. Yeah it's faster, which is a double-edged sword when it comes to poorly trained police. I think that police who shoot less than 500 rounds a year should carry striker-fired pistols in condition three. Want to carry condition one? Qualify for it.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:52
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 But dog, you are a racist.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:52
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Oh poo poo suspiciously skewed figures. Hopefully a someone makes a website to unskew them so that we can know the real whole truth.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:57
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So the data is pretty sparse and non detailed. This is why I would like to see body cams and better car cams with all footage filed with a central agency for every police shooting. Then you'd fill a huge portion of that data gap....and bring a lot more closure and less ambiguity to these guess-what-really-happened events. Shaocaholica fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 17:03
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Waco Panty Raid posted:I'm not going to defend police training requirements. Didn't think this needed to be said, but just in case, yeah. Police training in the US is loving abysmal with regard to everything.
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Nov 27, 2014 17:04
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Pattycakes posted:Do you think that he actually attacked Wilson? I'm not entirely sold on that yet. I was just pointing out that the wrestling with the gun in the car part of cops story is plausible, due to the way they are made. I don't know who "started it" I wasn't there. I think that engaging in a physical altercation while seated in your car is a dumb idea, and doing it with someone who it 275+ lbs is epically stupid. So I guess that either Wilson is a total idiot, or Brown initiated something. I am convinced that Wilson pulled the gun at some point. Reaching into the car, and pulling a pistol out of a duty holster is to hard to do. I guess you could make up some scenario where Wilson has the gun already drawn as he is trying to exit the car and Brown sees it, reacts poorly, pushing the door shut, and struggles with Wilson through the window of the car till the gun goes off. <<<total theory crafting, but plausible. I have been convinced for months that Brown was moving towards Wilson when he was killed, mostly based on the guy who was live tweeting (first hand account, no reason to change his story cause it was happening live, also not very fond of the police), and where the bullets struck Brown. So basically I believe that Brown contributed in some way to his own death, maybe he was scared, maybe he was high, maybe he was just being stupid, maybe it was a bizarre set of circumstances that anyone would have reacted the same way. He's dead and we're alive to talk about it.
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Nov 27, 2014 17:15
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