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Berk Berkly posted:Oh no, not the tax base! Maybe that's Ferguson's plan, reduce the Tax Base enough that they can't afford to hire cops to shoot unarmed teenagers anymore.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:08
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I'm still confused over what the narratives claimed for who instigated the encounter in the first place, someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm catching up on this thread and sifting through everything online about it. Johnson's story is that Wilson instigated the struggle initially by driving up, door-checking the two of them, and attempting to pull Brown closer, leading to a scuffle where Wilson shoots Brown at close range in the hand and at least one other spot (the NYT article states that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun, clothes, and in the car). Brown then moves to a greater distance, turns, and is shot the remaining six times. Wilson claims that he drove up and tried to get out of his car, at which point Brown slams it back and begins attacking Wilson through the open window, leading to Wilson drawing his gun and firing at close range. Brown then retreats, turns, and charges at Wilson, who then shoots him dead in fear of his life. It seems like the story about who instigated the struggle in the first place (not the resulting shooting) is basically Johnson's testimony versus Wilson's version of events?
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Nov 28, 2014 11:11
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I don't see how "pushed a shopkeeper" means that he would try to kill a cop, a shopkeeper isn't likely to end your life if you get into a fight with them. Furthermore I don't see how it's even relevant to Brown getting shot and the people who are keeping it the main topic are doing a great job.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:18
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Karl Rove posted:(the NYT article states that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun, clothes, and in the car). I'm guessing they didn't find it on his hands or skin, given that he went back to the station immediately after the killing and washed up.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:19
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beatlegs posted:I'm guessing they didn't find it on his hands or skin, given that he went back to the station immediately after the killing and washed up. quote:A crime scene investigator described swabbing Officer Wilson’s gun; the subsequent DNA report found Mr. Brown’s genetic material on Officer Wilson’s Sig Sauer pistol. Similarly, DNA from Mr. Brown was also found on the officer’s uniform pants and shirt.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:29
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The way this discussion has taken its course is actually quite fascinating from a metacognitive perspective. People have become so lost in minutiae and conjecture that they have completely dissociated themselves from the important, concrete facts. Darren Wilson killed an unarmed teenager and has not faced any sort of censure. That's it. That's what people are mad about. Doesn't matter if Mike Brown was carrying half of the store's inventory on his back after giving the shopkeep a bloody nose or if he was completely innocent. It's not important, because in a civilized society, you are not summarily executed for petty theft or assault. Jail time? Sure. Fine. I have my own ideas about the prison industrial complex, but in the context of this event, people would not be protesting if Mike Brown was arrested, found guilty of whatever crime, and appropriately sentenced. In a way, the focus on whether or not Brown stole or not is another form the racial power imbalance in our country. There is evidently a sizable laundry list of criteria that he must meet to be exempt from being gunned down by the police. We need to remember here that every suspect killed before being brought to trial is, in the broader sense, a failure of the criminal justice system. The circumstances behind Wilson's testimony absolutely merit a trial before the court of law to sort out what actually happened. He doesn't need to be found guilty. He simply needs to undergo the same process the rest of us go through when we shoot unarmed teenagers. Protests have erupted because Wilson's exemption from this process heavily implies a good deal of corruption in the law enforcement apparatus, which seems worth protesting.
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Nov 28, 2014 12:14
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Casimir Radon posted:So why are they still running with this Gentle Giant bullshit? Here he is grabbing a clerk by the throat after robbing him, I don't find it hard to believe that this guy would have flipped out when told to stop jaywalking. Precisely. His reefer madness induced bloodlust wasn't sated by giving a quick shove to a convenience store clerk, so Brown spontaneously decided to attempt to beat to death an armed police officer and "bulk up" to finish the job while being shot multiple times. That video clip of Brown towering over the white clerk just hammers the poo poo out of some "scary black person" button deep in the amygdala of conservatives. Not like their instinctual reaction to a black man being shot by a white cop isn't hate/fear, but the video turned the dial up to 11 for them, as evidence by posts like that one.
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Nov 28, 2014 12:19
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An unarmed teenager is dead. Darren Wilson is potentially guilty of excessive force at best, and homicide at worst. He never even went to trial because the prosecution was doing everything they could, up to and including throwing outdated laws that were found unconstitutional at the jury. Darren Wilson is one million dollars richer. So please excuse people who might be a little angry.
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Nov 28, 2014 12:50
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Pomp posted:An unarmed teenager is dead. Darren Wilson is potentially guilty of excessive force at best, and homicide at worst. He never even went to trial because the prosecution was doing everything they could, up to and including throwing outdated laws that were found unconstitutional at the jury. Darren Wilson is one million dollars richer. Did people donate another $600k? Good God.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:06
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Pastrymancy posted:Did people donate another $600k? Good God. ABC payed him "mid-to-high six figures" for the interview.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:09
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Khorre posted:No, I think the prosecutors told them that unless they were sure he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they couldn't indict. you know...you don't have to guess at what the prosecutors said...you can read the transcript! Spoiler alert...they said probable cause. As to the fleeing suspect statute. It's problematic, but not for the reasons people think. The forensic evidence is pretty clear he was shot in the front, so that particular instruction, despite O'Donnell's best efforts, probably had little impact on the grand jury. HOWEVER the fact the DAs office is still distributing overturned law is extremely troubling from a systemic perspective and suggests a level of incompetence. EDIT: Apparently they jury was eventually instructed that the law was unconstitutional...but this is a really hamfisted way of doing things. They (presumably...but then, I guess I can't presume anything about missouri) should have model jury instructions that reflect supreme court developments. THOSE should have been given, not the statute itself. http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/grand-jury-wrangled-confusing-instructions ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 13:37
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Job Truniht posted:Those colonists thugs deserved to get shot by British soldiers for throwing poo poo at and heckling them. fundamentally flawed understanding of US history event. I suggest you read David McCullough's biography of John Adams for a more accurate account (no relation to Bill McCullugh that I know of)
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Nov 28, 2014 13:44
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So is it only because Michael Brown is dead that the media can say he's a Strong Arm Shoplifter or conducted a Robbery without sticking an "Alleged" in there? Because I thought people were Innocent until proven Guilty and unless they dragged his corpse into a court he never saw one.
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Nov 28, 2014 14:02
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Pomp posted:ABC payed him "mid-to-high six figures" for the interview. Are you loving kidding me
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Nov 28, 2014 15:15
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Now the poors have a better reason to be pissed off.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:23
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Fans posted:Because I thought people were Innocent until proven Guilty and unless they dragged his corpse into a court he never saw one. I'd be surprised if innocent until proven guilty would extent that far, because I can think of a lot of people dead or alive who are called murderers despite never being formally convicted.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:29
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I have a question for all you USA folks: Why is there the prevailing belief that violent unrest, protest etc. will never accomplish anything (re:the property damage etc. in ferguson), considering the country was founded (as far as I know) as a result of protest & unrest that lead to a violent, organized, militaristic revolt? Is it just unsettling that many find themselves in the position of the hated British, if they find that parallel? Or is there some more subtle nuance to this that I'm missing? It keeps coming up in discussion about this with american friends, and frankly the logic is baffling to me.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:31
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Pomp posted:ABC payed him "mid-to-high six figures" for the interview. This should be illegal. Hopefully a really baller attorney will reprent the Browns pro bono in the civil suit and force him to blow through all that defending himself. ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 15:31
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Why don't they pay hundreds of thousands to Dorian Johnson for an interview? That's one I'd like to see.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:33
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: In school we're taught a heavily simplified version of MLK and Ghandi's movements, and we spend very little time on the struggles for labor rights, both peaceful and violent. I remember my only exposure to the violent side of union busting was a single 30 minute documentary in high school until I was researching things on my own half a decade ago. The revolution gets compartmentalized away from protests and riots.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:52
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SedanChair posted:Why don't they pay hundreds of thousands to Dorian Johnson for an interview? That's one I'd like to see. Considering he lives in Ferguson and his testimony indicates theft from Brown's part, I figure he doesn't want to make things any worse for himself. e: Unless he gets paid enough to go live somewhere else
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Nov 28, 2014 16:02
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: Well, these protests themselves aren't supposed to solve anything, they're venting of rage. More importantly though, they're symptomatic of the underlying problem (i.e., police brutality, at least here and in Rodney King). Beyond that though, there's a very real idea from those with things (property, family, etc) that they will lose them if they participate in riots. That's the main reason why the labor protests died out - the (white) laborers got capital, and are hesitant to risk losing it over some issue that may not even effect them very much. Also it's very naive to compare a group of colonial governments that were literally weeks away from the overarching authority to a system where the local government is readily organized and the national government is a day or two away.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:02
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: Because violent unrest tends to upend the status quo and right now, we very much like where the status quo is currently. Therefore, the Revolutionary War is the only "good" revolt, while others are vilified as much as possible.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:10
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Fans posted:So is it only because Michael Brown is dead that the media can say he's a Strong Arm Shoplifter or conducted a Robbery without sticking an "Alleged" in there? Yes, but specifically because his being dead means that there won't be a trial, so the news media no longer has an obligation to attend the court's decision. And there's no other reason to be circumspect (that he stole from a store is well-evidenced and beyond reasonable doubt).
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Nov 28, 2014 16:11
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: I chock it up to a combination of cynicism/demoralization and, in large part, the right's cultivation of authoritarianism in recent decades. The same subtext shows up in loving everything: Just lay back and think of freedom
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Nov 28, 2014 16:21
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Whats the consensus about whether Brown actually robbed the store or not? It's pretty clear he did, judging by him and the shopkeeper's body language, correct? Or did he not pay full price or something and didn't want to pay extra?
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Nov 28, 2014 16:33
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LolitaSama posted:Whats the consensus about whether Brown actually robbed the store or not? It's pretty clear he did, judging by him and the shopkeeper's body language, correct? Or did he not pay full price or something and didn't want to pay extra? Who gives a poo poo Pomp posted:So please excuse people who might be a little angry. Cool, here's a list of cases where anger made things better: Bholder fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 16:34
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LolitaSama posted:Whats the consensus about whether Brown actually robbed the store or not? It's pretty clear he did, judging by him and the shopkeeper's body language, correct? Or did he not pay full price or something and didn't want to pay extra? Well, his buddy says that he stole some cigarillos and the video corroborates that, so it's pretty much beyond doubt that he stole some stuff. The characterisation of what happened (robbery vs. shoplifting) is something of a hot topic, though.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:39
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tezcat posted:It's pretty simple unless you start off with per-concieved notions based on the race of the individuals really. Whoa! Pro move, discussion over! Anyone who disagreed with you never had a chance. There are a few ways to get shot in the top of the head. He was falling forward, he was charging, or he was summarily executed while on his knees begging for his life. And if you've ever been in a fight with someone, yes, angry men will sometimes charge like a bull in an attempt to wrap their arms around your mid-section. But I just think he was probably falling forward from being shot (wrong answer I know, but I'm stupid).
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Nov 28, 2014 16:42
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: That's a really good point and I like it. But you gotta watch out, nobody likes a "taste of grape".
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Nov 28, 2014 16:44
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Wow, lots of racists trying to defend the senseless murder of an unarmed man in this thread. I guess this means empathy is dead.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:58
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albany academy posted:I have a question for all you USA folks: Then the Civil Rights movement, which was scary to white people. Then the Vietnam protests, which I think were largely ineffective, plus conflated with the Hippie movement and discredited (which has continued in pop culture since). Ditto the anti-Iraq War protests. Then the fusion of the Religious and Political/Business Right into the modern authoritarian Republican party, where every problem is caused by the Democrats and ultimately solved by winning the White House. Also, (right wing) media continually screaming that Leftists of any stripe are simply anti-American parasites demanding more and more from "good, honest, hardworking Americans" (read: corporations). And the OWS farce. And I think a lot of people are just comfortable enough to not be willing to sacrifice what they have, even if what they could win would substantially improve their lives. The media is extremely effective at Othering any kind of protest movement. There is no real Leftist voice in American politics, so even successful protest movements like Act Up in the 80s are ignored. e. Purely hypothetical: I'm guessing the breakdown in unifying community organizations is also a factor. Everyone is too self-centred to feel genuine kinship and things like churches and workers unions have been replaced with carefully curated Twitter feeds and slacktivism. e2. Black people = thugs and welfare queens who can't accept that racism ended in 1865 Queer people = decadent aberrations who want to pervert society Anti-War protesters = naive pinko hippies who hate America Millenials = narcissistic, spoiled brats who don't know the value of hard work Environmentalists = naive pinko hippies who hate America and want to take your job, also the science is still out on climate change Illegal immigrants = filthy outsiders who took your job because they are willing to be paid less Etc. etc. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 16:59
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ReidRansom posted:This should be illegal. A civil suit against Wilson directly will probably get tossed under qualified immunity. The family could sue the PD and the City and get a hefty settlement out of it, but unless they can prove that Wilson violated department policy or a state law, which Wilsons attorneys will trot out the departments internal investigation and the grand jury results to counter, a civil suit against Wilson will never see the inside of a courtroom. And depending on how the FOP/PBA contract is setup, Wilson would probably have the union covering his attorney fees. That likely wouldn't be the case had he been indicted.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:09
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Karl Rove posted:Just going off of the article it doesn't look like it; Brown was originally shot at basically point blank range, of course they are going to find "genetic material" all over Wilson. I think it is insane that the Jury didn't focus harder on the fact that Wilson tampered with evidence the way he did.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:18
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Bholder posted:Cool, here's a list of cases where anger made things better: American revolution, civil rights movement, pretty much every successful labor strike in American history, etc. Like, I am incredibly far from someone who would advocate for violent protests, but anger can definitely lead to positive change.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:24
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Karl Rove posted:I'm still confused over what the narratives claimed for who instigated the encounter in the first place, someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm catching up on this thread and sifting through everything online about it. Basically, yes, and this should have been enough for a trial. There is also a discrepancy in the recounting of Brown's final moments; Wilson says Brown charges him and Johnson says Brown steps towards him. Based on the audio recording: Evil_Greven posted:Wilson says that he fired outside the vehicle only when Brown was advancing, and that Brown advanced on him twice. e: Something I just thought of - referring to my speculation here -  - one of the witnesses said that Wilson sidestepped Brown when he was moving. quote:When she rounded the bend near the front of the apartment complex, she heard what sounded like If that is the case... things get rather weird. Evil_Greven fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 17:28
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Bholder posted:Cool, here's a list of cases where anger made things better: - Abolitionist movement -> Civil War - Womens Suffrage - Labor movement of the early 20th century - Civil Rights movement - ACT UP - If you define "better" as "achieving specific political goals", then the Tea Party movement And that's just the US.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:30
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Real life isn't star wars, giving into anger doesn't lead to hate or suffering or whatever. Its ridiculous that this even has to be said.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:34
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Bholder posted:Cool, here's a list of cases where anger made things better: You forgot to write down any of the countless examples where this was the case, so don't run off. Come on back coward.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:35
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SedanChair posted:Don't worry Foma, young black boys are learning your lessons well. Did she at least warn her son about the one-man KKK death squads disappearing black people by offering them rides?
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Nov 28, 2014 17:42
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