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TheImmigrant posted:This strikes me as a contradiction in terms, like Satanic Catholic priest. If your beliefs mean you are unable to perform your job, the job is a sacrifice you'll have to make for your beliefs. It's ridiculously easy to memorize a set of facts purely for the sake of passing a test and then immediately casting them out of your memory. Quite a few creationists get Bachelors, Masters, or even Doctorates in Biology by doing this and they do it because having that degree makes them an "authority" on the subject that other creationists can point to to support their positions.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:20
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Who What Now posted:It's ridiculously easy to memorize a set of facts purely for the sake of passing a test and then immediately casting them out of your memory. Quite a few creationists get Bachelors, Masters, or even Doctorates in Biology by doing this and they do it because having that degree makes them an "authority" on the subject that other creationists can point to to support their positions. probably doubly easy at the borderline fake school Liberty University, which was this dude's alma mater. makes one wonder why in the gently caress the california state system hired him in the first place
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Nov 30, 2014 23:21
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Jagchosis posted:probably doubly easy at the borderline fake school Liberty University, which was this dude's alma mater. makes one wonder why in the gently caress the california state system hired him in the first place I'm trying to imagine what it would be like teaching biology without referencing evolution in some way, and it's failing me. Evolution is foundational for everything from molecular genetics to animal behavior. I guess you could just teach people to look at poo poo through microscopes?
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Nov 30, 2014 23:25
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420DD Butts posted:I'm trying to imagine what it would be like teaching biology without referencing evolution in some way, and it's failing me. Evolution is foundational for everything from molecular genetics to animal behavior. Hell, evolution is a key component of modern medicine as well, and we wouldn't be able to create vaccines, do research into viruses, or any number of a hundred other things.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:28
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no you see, while evolution can happen on a short time frame it can't happen on a long one because challenging ideas, people.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:32
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guys im ashamed of you for not taking this discussion deadly seriously
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Nov 30, 2014 23:34
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I must have missed an account of a university canceling an engagement with a klannazi... In spite of the book mentioned in the op, all the examples actually have leftists getting hosed over by goofy levels of leftism. Finding an anti-kkk book offensive because it mentions the kkk. Opposing a pro-choice speaker because it's a man. I'd argue that this Aaron Hardy is likely a progressive guy getting stymied by goofy leftism: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/04/traditional-college-debate-white-privilege/360746/2/
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Nov 30, 2014 23:52
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I hate (not really) to bring the dreaded word privilege into the conversation, but it's sometimes easy to tell when someone views someone saying "Your race/gender/sexuality is an abomination that has no place in work or academia" as purely an issue about academic freedom and not an issue of personal safety and survival.Rollofthedice posted:edit: I know two (2) African-Americans from my high school personally. One of them was a violist in the orchestra. For a brief period, remarks about watermelons and KFC would be littered over our whiteboard by bored students. I'm not quite sure why they stopped, but my guess leans more toward 'lost interest' than 'was told to stop'. Ugh why couldn't he just accept an open exchange of ideas? The black student should stop feeling so sensitive and intolerant.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:57
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Rollofthedice posted:edit: I know two (2) African-Americans from my high school personally. One of them was a violist in the orchestra. For a brief period, remarks about watermelons and KFC would be littered over our whiteboard by bored students. I'm not quite sure why they stopped, but my guess leans more toward 'lost interest' than 'was told to stop'. Hopefully that didn't lead to the black students becoming closed-minded and failing to root through each of the white racist students' racism for nuggets and pearls and jewels of wisdom IT'S ABOUT LEARNING FROM ONE ANOTHER, WHY WON'T YOU LEARN
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Dec 1, 2014 00:19
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Phyzzle posted:I must have missed an account of a university canceling an engagement with a klannazi... I can't find much about whether Aaron Hardy is progressive or not, the only other media outlets I can find carrying this guy's torch are Breitbart, the Weekly Standard, and other right-wing outlets. I did, however, find a bunch of articles crying about how horrifying it is that a black team won the college debate championship by (to quote one conservative article) "Repeating the N-Word Over and Over, Speaking Incomprehensibly", and some other ones claiming that the college debate league is intentionally ignoring rule violations because it's just so devoted to diversity that it would never penalize a minority for anything - both things that Hardy cites as the main examples of his criticisms of the current debate format. It's far more likely that he's being called racist because he's crafting a league for the explicit purpose of barring the new approaches used recently by minority teams in the main leagues that have brought them great success, and instead enforcing a format that gives distinct advantages to big-name schools with hefty debate budgets while preventing minority teams from bringing to bear the weight of their diverse experiences and worldview. He tries to reframe the critics as the real racists by claiming that they're the ones saying minorities can't compete under his rules, sure. But that article you links cites mentions that a black debater had made a powerful impact in a debate on government policy toward black communities, by describing an instance of discrimination against him by the police in that very venue just days before - yet under Hardy's proposed alternative league, he would have been prohibited from talking about it, nor would the debaters even have been able to drag the subject to that in the first place. The flexibility of the current debate leagues' almost-nonexistent rules gives minority applicants a lot of room to bring in alternative arguments shaped by their own diverse experience, something that tends to be suppressed (even unintentionally) when rules written by a white guy are being stringently enforced.
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Dec 1, 2014 00:33
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A SECOND BLACK HAS HIT THE HARD SCIENCES
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Dec 1, 2014 00:37
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420DD Butts posted:
Well, there was this guy http://www.thefire.org/cases/university-of-kansas-anti-nra-tweet-results-in-professors-suspension/ quote:On September 16, 2013, a few hours after shootings at Washington, D.C.’s Navy Yard, University of Kansas Professor David Guth posted a tweet to his personal Twitter account condemning the National Rifle Association, saying “Next time, let it be YOUR sons and daughters. Shame on you. May God drat you.” Following substantial public pressure and criticism, including from Kansas state legislators, KU placed Guth on administrative leave on September 20. FIRE wrote to Chancellor Bernadette Gray-Little on September 22, pointing out that Guth’s expression was fully protected and that a university investigation into his speech on the basis of its content was not acceptable. Chancellor Gray-Little released a statement to the KU community on September 23, clarifying that Guth’s suspension was not related to the content of his expression, but defended his suspension by claiming it was necessary to prevent further “disruption.” It looks like he returned around April of this year though. http://kansasfirstnews.com/2014/04/02/ku-professor-returning-after-leave-over-controversal-tweet/
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Dec 1, 2014 01:59
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semper wifi posted:why is this thread full of leftists supporting restrictions on speech? In the real world you guys are the first ones they'd use the laws against. Give it about 3 years.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:27
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The Landstander posted:Give it about 3 years. lol. Kind of like all the horrible crap that came with the patriot act and it's ilk. Horrible under Bush, Obama straps a rocket to the thing and it's all good and necessary.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:38
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When did that happen? I guess you are saying leftists support Obama? Which is not really true? Some do granted, but leftists aren't really big Obama supporters because you know, he is right wing.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:52
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spacetoaster posted:lol. Kind of like all the horrible crap that came with the patriot act and it's ilk. Horrible under Bush, Obama straps a rocket to the thing and it's all good and necessary. obama!
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Dec 1, 2014 02:58
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I don't know why people think that incidents like these are political in nature rather than universities becoming as intolerant and frightened of controversy as any other big business. It's funny to read, but thinking that a grand conspiracy of communists and trans women has taken over the state university system is downright paranoid.
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Dec 1, 2014 03:34
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Nckdictator posted:Well, there was this guy Yeah, something like that I don't understand. If it A) doesn't affect the professor's ability to do his/her job B) does not negatively impact students or C) isn't said within an official university capacity then that kind of reaction is completely unwarranted. It would be the same if the professor talked about liberal gun grabbers on their twitter, it's silly. Effectronica posted:I don't know why people think that incidents like these are political in nature rather than universities becoming as intolerant and frightened of controversy as any other big business. It's funny to read, but thinking that a grand conspiracy of communists and trans women has taken over the state university system is downright paranoid. I agree with this - these actions come down to business decisions for the most part, not targeted discrimination. It's sad that public education has come to this but alas. Somewhat tangential but a great way to end this kind of crap would be by greatly increasing public funding for universities! Aves Maria! fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 03:37
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Effectronica posted:I don't know why people think that incidents like these are political in nature rather than universities becoming as intolerant and frightened of controversy as any other big business. It's funny to read, but thinking that a grand conspiracy of communists and trans women has taken over the state university system is downright paranoid. You're right there, there are numerous apolitical cases, or even bi-political (is that even a word? maybe bipartisan would be better) http://www.thefire.org/cases/university-of-central-florida-professor-suspended-for-in-class-joke/ quote:On April 23, 2013, Hyung-il Jung, a lecturer in UCF’s Rosen College of Hospitality Management, held a review session for an accounting course, at which roughly 25 students were present. During the session, Jung noted that his students seemed to be struggling with his questions and joked, “It looks like you guys are being slowly suffocated by these questions. Am I on a killing spree or what?” On April 24, after a student complained about Jung’s remark, UCF placed Jung on paid administrative leave, barred him from entering the Rosen College campus, required him to complete a mental evaluation, and prohibited him from contacting any UCF students. FIRE wrote to UCF President John C. Hitt on April 26, calling for Jung’s immediate reinstatement. UCF fully reinstated Jung on May 13, without requiring that he submit to a mental evaluation in advance. http://www.thefire.org/cases/ohio-university-political-flyers-censored-in-dorms/ quote:In September 2012, Ohio University student Jillyann Burns posted a flyer on the door to her residence hall room, criticizing the policy positions of President Barack Obama and Governor Mitt Romney. Shortly after Burns posted her flyer, a resident assistant warned residents that “NO political posters/flyers should be hung in the hallways or on you[r] door until 14 days before an election.” Following a room inspection on September 17, Burns was informed again of this requirement and the possibility of discipline if she did not comply. FIRE wrote to OU on September 28, informing the university that its restrictions on political flyers violated students’ First Amendment rights. On October 1, Burns was informed that she was once again allowed to post political materials on her door, and that OU would revise and clarify its policies. http://www.thefire.org/cases/catawb...ny-on-facebook/ quote:In June 2011, Catawba Valley Community College (CVCC) announced a partnership with the financial services company Higher One to provide debit cards to CVCC students. In response, CVCC student Marc Bechtol and other students criticized the partnership on CVCC’s Facebook page. On September 28, Bechtol posted a critical message in which he joked, “I think we should register CVCC’s address with every porn site known to man.” One week later Bechtol was pulled out of his classroom and told not to return. On October 5, 2011, without a hearing, he was suspended for two semesters for violating the CVCC policy prohibiting any “offense which, in the opinion of the administration or faculty, may be contrary to the best interest of the CVCC community.” FIRE has asked CVCC to immediately abandon its punishment of Bechtol and drop all disciplinary proceedings. Under national pressure from FIRE, CVCC abandoned its punishment of Bechtol but failed to acknowledge that the speech was protected. http://www.thefire.org/cases/sam-ho...th-misdemeanor/ quote:On September 22, 2011, the student groups SHSU Lovers of Liberty, Bearkat Democrats, Young Democratic Socialists, and College Republicans sponsored the display of a “free speech wall,” on which students were invited to write any message they wanted. When SHSU Professor Joe E. Kirk saw that someone had written “gently caress OBAMA” on the wall, he demanded that the student organizers cover up the message. When they refused, Kirk returned with a box cutter and cut out the word “gently caress.” On the advice of an SHSU administrator, the student groups contacted SHSU’s University Police Department to report Kirk’s vandalism. After SHSU police Deputy Chief James Fitch interviewed the students and Kirk, however, he ordered the students to either censor the profanity on the wall or take down the wall altogether. The students decided to take down the wall. Fitch later stated that because Kirk was “offended by the use of the profanity,” its use “qualified it as disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor.” http://www.thefire.org/cases/gainesville-state-college-president-censors-faculty-art-critical-of-confederate-heritage/ quote:Gainesville State College (GSC) unconstitutionally censored a painting critical of Confederate heritage by removing it from a faculty art exhibition. Art instructor and artist Stanley Bermudez’ painting “Heritage?” features images of a lynching and of a torch-wielding member of the Ku Klux Klan superimposed onto a Confederate flag. Two weeks into the exhibition, when critics of the painting contacted GSC President Martha T. Nesbitt, she removed it, claiming that “I have to consider the impact of an action on the health and reputation of the institution. In this instance, I made a judgment call that the negative results would outweigh the positive ones.” FIRE has asked President Nesbitt to announce to GSC’s students and faculty that their protected expression will never again be subject to censorship.
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Dec 1, 2014 04:24
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Nckdictator posted:You're right there, there are numerous apolitical cases, or even bi-political (is that even a word? maybe bipartisan would be better) Yeah. Universities are becoming a gigantic business, and they absolutely don't want to hurt their business if they can avoid it. Liberal biases, if they exist, are almost certainly because young people are perceived as generally liberal.
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Dec 1, 2014 04:27
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seems like fire's trying to censor university's free domes
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Dec 1, 2014 04:27
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Effectronica posted:Yeah. Universities are becoming a gigantic business, and they absolutely don't want to hurt their business if they can avoid it. Liberal biases, if they exist, are almost certainly because young people are perceived as generally liberal. That's a pretty good way to sum it up, it doesn't make these incidents right but it certainly helps provide context. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 04:31
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Effectronica posted:I don't know why people think that incidents like these are political in nature rather than universities becoming as intolerant and frightened of controversy as any other big business. It's funny to read, but thinking that a grand conspiracy of communists and trans women has taken over the state university system is downright paranoid. And if that's the case, what departments is this conspiracy taking over? Mechanical engineering?
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Dec 1, 2014 04:34
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fanged wang posted:a survey of 9,000 campus staff members shows that less than 20% of them believe it's safe to hold unpopular views on campus and it is plainly obvious to anyone with a brain that they're all white supremacists and garbage people who should shut up Effectronica posted:I don't know why people think that incidents like these are political in nature rather than universities becoming as intolerant and frightened of controversy as any other big business. It's funny to read, but thinking that a grand conspiracy of communists and trans women has taken over the state university system is downright paranoid. quote:It’s a worldview that’s steeped in social progressivism, in the values of tolerance and diversity. It takes as a given that government has a role to play in building infrastructure, regulating business, training workers, smoothing out the boom-bust cycles of the economy, providing for the poor and disadvantaged. But it is a view from on high—one that presumes a dominant role for large institutions like corporations and a wisdom on the part of elites. It believes that the world works best when these elites use their power magnanimously, not when they’re forced to share it. The picture of the boardroom liberal is a corporate CEO handing a refrigerator-sized check to the head of a charity at a celebrity golf tournament. All the better if they’re surrounded by minority children and struggling moms. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 08:46
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Omi-Polari posted:I read an interview with Chris Rock tonight where he said he stopped performing on college campuses because they have lame crowds. People uncomfortable with edgy racial humor, even when it's from a progressive point-of-view. A lot of these universities have a culture of stifled, paternalistic, colorblind liberalism where even pointing out someone's race can make people fidget uncomfortably. to be honest after hearing a ton of white racist people say "i don't hate black people i hate NIGGAS" i can see why people would be uncomfortable with his humor. though i suppose he had to retire that routine for just that reason
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Dec 1, 2014 08:51
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Jagchosis posted:to be honest after hearing a ton of white racist people say "i don't hate black people i hate NIGGAS" i can see why people would be uncomfortable with his humor. though i suppose he had to retire that routine for just that reason Not to dismiss racism or homophobia, but the barriers for when a slight becomes a cause are higher outside the campus than inside. I'm a gay twink boy and was driving in my cute import and some guy shouted at me "cocksucker!" And I was pissed about that for a few minutes, but the most you can do is shout back and tell the guy he's a prick and can go gently caress himself, and you go about your day. Because there's nothing else you can do. Welcome to the world. He's some rear end in a top hat. There's no one you can report him to. Would you want to report him to some agency? Whatever. gently caress him. But college campuses have systems for dealing with situations like that. And people are afraid of being reported for a lot less than that, especially if you're employed in some capacity, which a lot of students are, in various activities.
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Dec 1, 2014 09:12
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Omi-Polari posted:Eh. I don't really know or care that much. But I get the feeling that college campuses are just more sensitive to the point where it can be stifling. It's sort of a bubble. The working world rat race is more hardened. People are busy and have lives and kids and other poo poo to deal with. And they're less insecure. Reputation is everything to universities. They need a lot of people to donate money to them and a lot of people to enroll, and they believe that their image and reputation are everything. That's why they fixate on things like school rankings - they believe that the public's image of their school is a primary factor in determining the inflow of money and students. And part of reputation management is avoiding being associated with controversial topics at all costs. A wall on campus displaying prominent "gently caress OBAMA" graffiti, for example, is absolutely going to offend way more donors and potential students than the general concept of a "free speech wall" will attract, so away it goes as soon as anyone expresses any kind of discontent about it. I'd disagree that the working world is "hardened", though, or that it should be. If a co-worker or manager calls you a "cocksucker" then they're putting their job in danger. Sure, if some random rear end in a top hat off the street poo poo-talks you there isn't anything you can do about it (though if they're indoors, they'll probably get kicked out of whatever building they're in if they make enough of a scene), but in any kind of group, organization, business, or school, saying things like that to other members has a pretty good chance of getting them in trouble.
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Dec 1, 2014 10:38
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Effectronica posted:Yeah. Universities are becoming a gigantic business, and they absolutely don't want to hurt their business if they can avoid it. Liberal biases, if they exist, are almost certainly because young people are perceived as generally liberal. The bias wouldn't be because of the liberal political affiliation of young people. The bias(es) would just be coming from whichever vague political group decides to make incidents controversial by complaining about them a lot and demanding they stop. People who lean right are the ones who take the 'grand conspiracy', adversarial approach. People who lean left take a different approach but the desired result is the same. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 11:50
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Omi-Polari posted:I read an interview with Chris Rock tonight where he said he stopped performing on college campuses because they have lame crowds. People uncomfortable with edgy racial humor, even when it's from a progressive point-of-view. A lot of these universities have a culture of stifled, paternalistic, colorblind liberalism where even pointing out someone's race can make people fidget uncomfortably. I wouldn't call something that's driven by students or coworkers elitist, which is what about half of these articles are referring to in terms of outrages. Omi-Polari posted:Eh. I don't really know or care that much. But I get the feeling that college campuses are just more sensitive to the point where it can be stifling. It's sort of a bubble. The working world rat race is more hardened. People are busy and have lives and kids and other poo poo to deal with. And they're less insecure. Alternatively, people in the working world, lacking the ability to effect change, stop caring about changing things and indeed become negative towards change. Pedro De Heredia posted:The bias wouldn't be because of the liberal political affiliation of young people. The bias(es) would just be coming from whichever vague political group decides to make incidents controversial by complaining about them a lot and demanding they stop. People who lean right are the ones who take the 'grand conspiracy', adversarial approach. People who lean left take a different approach but the desired result is the same. I'm talking about a genuine bias, if it exists, in university actions regardless of reporting.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:36
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goddam liberals!!
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Dec 1, 2014 15:34
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Omi-Polari posted:I'm a gay twink boy and was driving in my cute import and some guy shouted at me "cocksucker!" And I was pissed about that for a few minutes, but the most you can do is shout back and tell the guy he's a prick and can go gently caress himself, and you go about your day. Just as the founding fathers intended it. 
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Dec 1, 2014 16:04
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Rollofthedice posted:During working hours in their area of employment, absolutely. This is context changing information if it's true. The initial instance implied it was a one-time thing. Mormon Star Wars posted:This is dumb as hell. How can he be a "good history teacher" if, instead of teaching history, he is spending his time alienating his black students? Why would you want someone that interrupts his history teaching to engage in behavior that will gently caress up a kid's learning to continue teaching? Apparently he wasn't! I still have a problem with demonizing people. Someone who is wrong, even on multiple subjects, is not necessarily a loving monster. Telling yourself otherwise is simply encouraging zealotry in yourself. If any group might be safely said to be the same, it's zealots. Whatever cause they serve, they seem to universally make the world crappier. Perhaps worse, in their delusions they often damage their own causes more than anyone else's. How many converts to Christianity has the Westboro Baptist Church made compared to nigh any other, I wonder. Even then, I wonder how many people swore off faith entirely over their antics? Finally, seriously, all those Strawmen. Those only do you any good in an environment where everyone agrees with you already. Unless a lot of you are planning to flood the world with your clones, you're honing and endorsing a useless tactic. (Also none of you have special powers no matter what you tell yourselves.) The Snark fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 16:38
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Here is the full Chris Rock quotequote:What do you make of the attempt to bar Bill Maher from speaking at Berkeley for his riff on Muslims?
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Dec 1, 2014 18:49
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Until the African-Sinta autistic children with cleft palates are on the same footing as Bill Gates, any humor or attempt at humor is per se racist.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:57
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TheImmigrant posted:Until the African-Sinta autistic children with cleft palates are on the same footing as Bill Gates, any humor or attempt at humor is per se racist. its
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Dec 1, 2014 19:32
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Hi, would you like to learn about an incident that's going on right now? I mean, there's the Salaita case, which is going to court sometime, but here's an instance of harassment that's beyond the pale, and, of course, supported by FIRE. Cheryl Abbate is a graduate student in philosophy at Marquette. She was teaching an ethics class on Rawls and discussing the liberty principle. A student brought up same-sex marriage bans as something that violated Rawls' liberty principle, and Abbate agreed that it seemed to do that, and moved on. Well, after class, a student confronted her (a different student) and complained that she wouldn't allow a discussion of same-sex marriage (and he cited some bad evidence that adoption by gay couples had bad outcomes for children). Abbate, being a reasonable teacher, pointed out that this is a different topic than same-sex marriage, and the research was discredited. She also said that some arguments against same-sex marriage are highly offensive to gay students. Turns out the student recorded her. Well, the next class, she addressed the concerns, explained why the study isn't any good, and told students that, you know, class time is limited and that they can't discuss everything. This is all normal pedagogy. Turns out a political science professor, John McAdams (tenured, naturally), got ahold of the recording (probably because the student brought it to him) and wrote an angry blog post attacking Abbate (and in the process misrepresenting what happened in the classroom). It got picked up by Fox News and FIRE, she's been getting hate mail, and now Westboro Baptist Church is planning on picketing Marquette (which is probably some semblance of good news for her, because nobody likes to be seen as on the same side as them, but I doubt the hate towards her, and the fear she probably feels, is going away). You can read her side of the story (which my description is based on), and some reactions with links, here. (obviously the source is taking her side but in no sane world should a graduate student be subjected to this kind of public humiliation) Here's an IHE piece on the case. quote:Leading classroom discussions -- especially those about controversial ideas -- is a juggling act that can challenge even the most seasoned professors. There’s a clock to watch, student interest to gauge, and facts, opinions and personalities to navigate. Success or flop, though, most of the time those discussions end at the classroom door. But that wasn’t the case at Marquette University over the last month. Thanks to a cell phone and the internet, a graduate student instructor of philosophy there has found herself at the center of a firestorm over how she treated the topic of gay marriage during an ethics theory class.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:43
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Hi, would you like to learn about an incident that's going on right now? I mean, there's the Salaita case, which is going to court sometime, but here's an instance of harassment that's beyond the pale, and, of course, supported by FIRE. Homophobic weirdos not being allowed to use class time to talk about what they want to talk about is censorship. The bus driver telling me to sit down or get off when I want to tell them about my pokemon is censorship.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:07
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This is a site worth checking out. It has articles, book reviews and podcasts on the subject of campus free speech: http://www.spiked-online.com/freespeechnow
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Dec 1, 2014 21:13
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Having read the article, I don't feel it is simple. I don't believe either professor should be punished and I do hope a policy on harassment is enacted. That said, I would like it to be made very clear what constitutes harassment, not simply- as it seemed some might have been angling for- disagreeing with the policy decisions of a colleague. What precisely the criticizing Professor said would be important to know. People should be allowed to be wrong but not harass. There really is a difference. Likewise I am troubled to see that anything offensive is implied to be harassment. Offense can be taken to virtually anything, Tumblerites alone have made that rather clear. I believe a certain measure of resilience should be expected just as a certain measure of tact should be. Especially in a professional forum. Those sending clearly hateful messages should be persuaded to knock it off in any case.
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Dec 1, 2014 22:06
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Legislating good manners is generally a bad idea.
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Dec 1, 2014 22:14
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