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tef posted:but frankly as deals with capitalism go it's pretty good if you have the option as capitalism goes, it is an insane, screaming deal working in software is one of the lowest-stress jobs known to man. it's highly paid, it's relatively high-prestige, and it's pretty hard to get fired even by the already-comfortable standards of IT jobs, writing software for a living is extremely cushy
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Dec 1, 2014 07:01
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tef posted:i have become much nicer to beginners when i realise how terrible the tools we expect them to use are are you kidding me?? I had to BUY a compiler. With actual MONEY. And look up things in PRINTED MANUALS. the tools for beginners are astoundingly good. it's the rate of change and the constant reinvention and the layers upon layers of indirection that we expect them to deal with that earns them my pity.
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Dec 1, 2014 07:07
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rotor posted:are you kidding me?? I had to BUY a compiler. With actual MONEY. And look up things in PRINTED MANUALS. given that I was able to go from "what's an array?" to a working web app in a month or so speaks a lot more about the quality of information available than my "giftedness". my previous programming experience was from when I was 12 and decompiling PCBoard extensions to read the source and trying to learn from that. there weren't even books for that, at least not available to me.
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Dec 1, 2014 07:19
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:average wages for software developers hover between 3x and 4x the median wage in america. nobody doing IT work in 2014 is hurting for money because they're underpaid. gosh i hope you're not in charge of metrics or localization
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Dec 1, 2014 07:22
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just use ocaml
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Dec 1, 2014 07:24
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rotor posted:are you kidding me?? I had to BUY a compiler. With actual MONEY. And look up things in PRINTED MANUALS. yep ps in ruby: let's all get to know bundler, gem, rbenv, brew, and ruby-build, and maybe git first just to run hello world and deploy it 
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Dec 1, 2014 07:25
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:as capitalism goes, it is an insane, screaming deal are you paul graham because gosh your everyone elses life must be exactly like mine approach is spot on
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Dec 1, 2014 07:25
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tef posted:yep aw ur just bein grumpy. half that stuff has always been and will always be needed, and the other half is, well, I don't know what the other half of it is, but it's probably bad. counterpoint: open the javascript console of the browser that came with your computer. there, you now have the tools needed to learn programming.
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Dec 1, 2014 07:43
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in javascript 
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Dec 1, 2014 07:43
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tef posted:but hey if you're a guy, white enough, no or little social skills, and parents with enough money to get you a computer and pay your internet bills, you can self teach your way to a series of exploitative jobs with low salaries, or join in the gold rush in sf for far better money, but the company makes far higher margins on your work so how was selling your soul to heroku then?
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Dec 1, 2014 08:03
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subarashii!!!
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Dec 1, 2014 08:25
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:average wages for software developers hover between 3x and 4x the median wage in america. nobody doing IT work in 2014 is hurting for money because they're underpaid. Notorious b.s.d. posted:working in software is one of the lowest-stress jobs known to man. it's highly paid, it's relatively high-prestige, and it's pretty hard to get fired  . Here's it's still the nerd poo poo from before.Different sectors of the industry also vary a shitload. Videogame programmers strike me as the kind of folks that live with a high-stress factor, with poo poo schedules, and it's a part of the industry I never ever want to venture into.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:37
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MononcQc posted:Videogame programmers strike me as the kind of folks that live with a high-stress factor, with poo poo schedules, and it's a part of the industry I never ever want to venture into. same
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Dec 1, 2014 14:37
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notorious bsd when you're called out for being a bitter small minded individual in like every thread you make more than few posts in do you think its just yospos being mean and poo poo posty or do you think that reflects upon yourself as a person
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Dec 1, 2014 14:46
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MononcQc posted:cubicle farms for roughly the median income, this was my first programming job in canada as a fresh grad and i made 2.5x median individual income. when i left that job i took one making more than 3x median canada is not exactly a hub for this work, but i'm making so much easy money that i have almost no incentive to move to a 'hot' region like sf
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Dec 1, 2014 14:46
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more like dICK posted:this was my first programming job in canada as a fresh grad and i made 2.5x median individual income. when i left that job i took one making more than 3x median never move to SF
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Dec 1, 2014 14:49
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Captain Foo posted:never move to SF this was exactly what i thought after spending a week there earlier this year e: also the rest of America
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Dec 1, 2014 14:52
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america owns fyi
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Dec 1, 2014 14:53
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more like dICK posted:this was exactly what i thought after spending a week there earlier this year actually, america is good. San Fran sucks a lot tho
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Dec 1, 2014 14:54
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more like dICK posted:this was my first programming job in canada as a fresh grad and i made 2.5x median individual income. when i left that job i took one making more than 3x median Yeah I live in a small and remote region here and the top salary for a senior dev is below or around $50k/year. Your usual junior programmer job kind of deal will be in a small enterprise slinging ASP or PHP for $15-$18 an hour or so with no benefits or security. Moving away is definitely an option for most people at that point. The best way to hire people in the region is to advertise outside of it and wait for some nostalgic person who left to come back at a shittier wage than they had because they (often erroneously) expected the cost of life to be low enough to afford it and then they'll be strapped down for a while before affording to leave again.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:55
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sorry, but anyone who doesn't think software is a good gig has never had to work for a living.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:56
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Stringent posted:sorry, but anyone who doesn't think software is a good gig has never had to work for a living.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:56
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Yeah I don't think I'd ever move to SF. Right now I'm pretty okay siphoning the SF money and bringing it to this here hovel of a city.
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Dec 1, 2014 14:56
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MononcQc posted:Yeah I live in a small and remote region here and the top salary for a senior dev is below or around $50k/year. Your usual junior programmer job kind of deal will be in a small enterprise slinging ASP or PHP for $15-$18 an hour or so with no benefits or security. TDeficit told me on IRC that Vancouver generally pays poorly and that is unfortunate.
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Dec 1, 2014 15:00
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FamDav posted:so how was selling your soul to heroku then? pretty drat good
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Dec 1, 2014 15:12
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Stringent posted:sorry, but anyone who doesn't think software is a good gig has never had to work for a living. i got payed overtime when i worked in a real job
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Dec 1, 2014 15:14
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rotor posted:aw ur just bein grumpy. half that stuff has always been and will always be needed, and the other half is, well, I don't know what the other half of it is, but it's probably bad. tbh if i am teaching basic computer stuff, i'll use scratch first to get the habits down and then bring them over to a more general purpose language if their projects need it
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Dec 1, 2014 15:16
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tef posted:i got payed overtime when i worked in a real job thats your fault for working for free outside of 8 to 5
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Dec 1, 2014 15:29
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Stringent posted:sorry, but anyone who doesn't think software is a good gig has never had to work for a living.
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Dec 1, 2014 15:59
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Captain Foo posted:actually, america is good. San Fran sucks a lot tho
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Dec 1, 2014 16:09
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tef posted:tbh if i am teaching basic computer stuff, i'll use scratch first to get the habits down and then bring them over to a more general purpose language if their projects need it make sure you teach them that p-langs are bad and that in the real world they should use java or c#
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Dec 1, 2014 16:15
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Shaggar posted:make sure you teach them that p-langs are bad and that in the real world they should use java or c# if they're going into a career of business logic middleware, sure, but we're talking hobby projects here
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Dec 1, 2014 16:34
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Visual Studio is free now, c# is the best choice for everything, or should they have to gently caress around with useless command lines and terrible tools?
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Dec 1, 2014 16:47
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Bloody posted:useless command lines and terrible tools? lol
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Dec 1, 2014 16:47
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using vim without any plugins makes you the retard guy from all those "if only there was a better way" infomercials
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Dec 1, 2014 16:49
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Series DD Funding posted:using vim makes you the retard
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Dec 1, 2014 16:52
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Series DD Funding posted:using vim without any plugins makes you the retard guy from all those "if only there was a better way" infomercials sup
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Dec 1, 2014 16:52
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tef posted:tbh if i am teaching basic computer stuff, i'll use scratch first to get the habits down and then bring them over to a more general purpose language if their projects need it sure I guess what I'm saying is the learning curve has basically inverted over the past ... what, say 25 years or so.
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Dec 1, 2014 17:08
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Bloody posted:Visual Studio is free now, c# is the best choice for everything, or should they have to gently caress around with useless command lines and terrible tools? honestly I would be so loving happy to see c# replace java
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Dec 1, 2014 17:09
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c#..java..whats the difference
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Dec 1, 2014 17:10
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