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he1ixx posted:Despite having him on ignore, I have been piecing together what our ol pal OCHS has been spewing in this thread from people's quotes. I would recommend everyone to set him to ignore so he goes away again. He needs help but it's clear after three long and painful episodes in this thread, he won't get the help he needs. For those who think he's interesting, let me sum up: I understand. I'm newish to this thread, so I wasn't aware of the history. I've met other practitioners in real life who had the same problems, so I sort of figured that was going on, but I didn't slam the ignore button until the hating women thing came out. Anyway
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Nov 29, 2014 15:46
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Max posted:I understand. I'm newish to this thread, so I wasn't aware of the history. I've met other practitioners in real life who had the same problems, so I sort of figured that was going on, but I didn't slam the ignore button until the hating women thing came out. It's no problem at all. I understand what it must be like to people seeing this fellow for the first time. He seems like he knows what he's talking about at first but once you push back on some of it, his defense mechanism teeters between disdain and arrogance. He's definitely not good for this thread which is meant to cater to people looking for guidance, education, patience and help. His circular logic, obtuse "i'm enlightened so I can't be expected to make sense" and rants help no one.
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Nov 29, 2014 15:52
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Paramemetic posted:I disagree with this, and I think the essence of Nagarjuna, especially in one of his most important works, the Fundamental Treatise on the Middle Way, teaches that interdependent origination and emptiness are very much interrelated. It is because of Two Truths doctrine that we can have the arising of phenomenon which are real on a sort of basic level, but ultimately empty. Things arising but devoid of nature provide the dual truth of appearance and emptiness, and this is an important thing. Hello ! Precisely, yes. I agree with what you say about Nagarjuna. But in Thich Nhat Han's view, it is not quite like that. In his book about the heart sutra, it's only about "things" being interrelated. Like the whole story about the piece of paper containing the rain and the clouds and the whole world. In Nagarjuna's view of emptiness (or rather, in what i falsely understood of it before banging my head against the walls), "things" are not relevant anymore. Nor are relationships between things. The interdependent origination he talks about is not linked to categories of stuff that we can name and discriminate, and at the same time it does not disqualify the way we conventionally name and discriminate. I found that in Thich Nhat Han's book, the whole part about emptiness and the view that things do not have inherent existence was skipped or looked over, which gives a really "light" view of emptiness and interdependance. In Nagarjuna, interdependance is not "independent things that are linked together", while TNH's book gives this impression. But still i love TNH's book, it's really great. Ugrok fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Nov 29, 2014 |
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Nov 29, 2014 17:45
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he1ixx posted:Despite having him on ignore, I have been piecing together what our ol pal OCHS has been spewing in this thread from people's quotes. I would recommend everyone to set him to ignore so he goes away again. He needs help but it's clear after three long and painful episodes in this thread, he won't get the help he needs. For those who think he's interesting, let me sum up: As one of the people who previously had argued that maybe we shouldn't be so quick to drive out OCHS, I have to say that I completely agree with you.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:45
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OCHS's posting style reminds me of a close friend of mine who is severely depressed. A circle of friends of mine from back home have a Facebook thread where we keep up and talk about our day-to-day experiences. Unfortunately, this friend of ours would continuously post his confused and depressed thoughts on there. No matter what we tried to say to him, he could simply not be calmed or helped. Eventually he realized that staying on the thread was proving extremely harmful for him, because, rather than allow the thoughts to stay in his head, he was solidifying them and giving them life by posting them on the thread. The feedback and back-and-forth that was generated by giving his thoughts a more solid form and engaging with us created a lot more pain and confusion for him. We still all love him dearly and try to reach out to him and keep in contact with him whenever possible, but his voluntary removal from the thread seems to have been a very beneficial step for him, as it allowed him stop indulging these thoughts obsessively. I think that the most compassionate decision here is, likewise, to afford OCHS some distance from this thread. Whether he's able to do this on his own or through moderator intervention, I feel that, for all of the reasons that he1ixx mentioned, it's best for everyone here to keep him from posting on this thread. Since I feel that a question I posted previously got lost underneath a lot of things, I'll ask again for anyone who missed it: Can anyone recommend any specific Bon authors/teachers/books? I want to learn more about this lineage, and would love if anyone knows of any resources that can be good jumping-off points! Thanks guys.
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Nov 29, 2014 21:05
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Im not indulging anything..expression frees me of them. The feedback loop isn't real for me in the same way anymore. It's real for you guys though and that's why you hate my posts so much. Well among other reasons  Also lol at the rest of the hater posts and especially lol at fyad coming to my rescue. Oh also i don't hate women, not at all, I just don't take them too seriously. Why should i if what they have is not what im after. They just bring me pain and problems. And for the record im not happy i got a rise out of anybody, not gonna crow in fyad over this or anything. Still havent posted there. Ive meant what i said. But still the amount of misunderstanding is funny
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Nov 30, 2014 00:24
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Please consider that it might not be the best idea to repeatedly try and engage people in a discussion in a place where literally everyone has said they don't want you around.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:26
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scrubbing
the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 00:30
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Tautologicus posted:im just posting for lurkers. Like you! And this is a problem, because someone might mistakenly think you're not absolutely loving insane and that you know something about Buddhism-
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Nov 30, 2014 00:32
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Mao Mix posted:And this is a problem, because someone might mistakenly think you're not absolutely loving insane and that you know something about Buddhism- The people in this thread don't know much about Buddhism. They think the heart sutra is tongue in cheek. Nah it takes everything away from you. Thats why i post. You probably dont know what im talking about.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:38
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Tautologicus posted:The people in this thread don't know much about Buddhism. They think the heart sutra is tongue in cheek. Nah it takes everything away from you. Thats why i post. You probably dont know what im talking about. Please gently caress off. The entire thread has asked you to gently caress off. You harassed a goon and tried to contact him/her in real life because he/she told you to gently caress off. You're a crazy person, that's okay, nobody is judging you for being crazy except insofar as you said "my meds don't work for me so I won't take them" and then act insane as hell. You're bigoted as gently caress and you've already been really creepy towards me in this thread for calling you out as a terrible loving poster. You derail the thread, mask the bullshit arhat claims from before while simultaneously acting the same way with regards to the deeper mysteries you've gleaned from being an arahat. You've got it all figured out, where teachers disagree with you, you are the enlightened piece of bigoted poo poo that has the real mysteries figured out. Literally nobody wants you here. You're not helping yourself here. You're creepy, sexist, harassing, stalkerish, straight up wrong, and you are most certainly not helping your own mental health by posting here. Please, get some help you desperately need.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:47
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Mao Mix posted:Please gently caress off. The entire thread has asked you to gently caress off. You harassed a goon and tried to contact him/her in real life because he/she told you to gently caress off. You're a crazy person, that's okay, nobody is judging you for being crazy except insofar as you said "my meds don't work for me so I won't take them" and then act insane as hell. You're bigoted as gently caress and you've already been really creepy towards me in this thread for calling you out as a terrible loving poster. You derail the thread, mask the bullshit arhat claims from before while simultaneously acting the same way with regards to the deeper mysteries you've gleaned from being an arahat. You've got it all figured out, where teachers disagree with you, you are the enlightened piece of bigoted poo poo that has the real mysteries figured out. Shhhh
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Nov 30, 2014 00:58
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Tautologicus posted:The people in this thread don't know much about Buddhism. They think the heart sutra is tongue in cheek. Nah it takes everything away from you. Thats why i post. You probably dont know what im talking about. I don't think anyone thinks this at all? I literally believe everything in the Heart Sutra verbatin, and yet I do not ramble about this or that like you seem to. Prajnaparamita is a fantastically concise sutra that cuts to the essence of Buddhist teaching on emptiness, and yet I have never once heard a lama explaining it the way you do. I generally can't tell if you are on point but trying to put non-conceptual into conceptual words, or if you're off point, and I've been chastised before for agreeing with you about such things. I think it's fair to say that I have never attacked you. The thing is, I am concerned for you because your interpretation is not consistent with the rest of canon, and your conduct is not an indicator of having actually understood the Heart Sutra. Because you actively denounce practice or study or commentaries and instead think the Sutra should be taken exactly as is, which is true to a degree, but without requisite understanding it is difficult to approach this sutra. As you know, while at it's face it is simple, it is also complex beyond conceptualization. Anyhow, my main concern is that you're writing for the lurkers and that if the people who are actually trying to converse with you can't seem to make meaningful communication, how can they? I've been doing my best to stay out of this because whenever you come back around in this mood nothing good comes of it, so I find it best to just leave it be, and I will return to doing that now. One thing I would add though is that by all accounts achieving the perfection of wisdom through the Heart Sutra is not distressing, it does not bring suffering but liberates completely from suffering. Between your saying you are unhappy, and your seemingly conflicting language when discussing the sutra (abyss, the present, etc.) I would reconsider whether you grasp the essence of this most important sutra. I would not do so by comparing yourself to the understanding of others, you spend a lot of time saying nobody in this thread understands Buddhism and so on, which seems meant to imply that you really do, but this isn't a useful mode of discourse. You've said now, presumably for the lurkers, that nobody in here has any understanding of Buddhism, and you have said that it's because nobody "gets" the Heart Sutra, and we think it's not meant to say what it says? But nobody thinks that, and anyhow, that's not a useful thing to say. Anyways, I'm falling into the trap of getting involved that I said I wouldn't, and as usual probably just saying too many words.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:42
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I dont agree (I really dont agree) but I'll leave it where it is. Im really surprised this thread hasn't started fresh yet
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Nov 30, 2014 10:27
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I've subscribed to a number of Buddhist podcasts, and lately feel as though I'm on a sort of constant retreat, at least in terms of taking in daily dharma talks (there are way more than I could actually give meaningful attention). One question that I've been thinking about in that context (albeit one only indirectly related to the substance of the talks) is: in what directions do Buddhists see Buddhism going as it assimilates into the West (especially with the advent of larger numbers of Western teachers and students). I'd be interested to hear your opinions on this, if any of you care to offer them, for example: - Will there be a cultural adaptation, as seems to have happened, at least to some extent, with the movements to China and Japan (changes in vestments, chanting in English or other Western languages, etc.)? - Will there be a heavy emphasis on meditation and/or certain types of meditation (e.g., in response to the popularization of MBSR) as a key practice or will a broader, different and/or differently balanced range of practice prevail? - Will there be a different emphasis on (or forms of) lay participation? - Will Buddhists' orientation be syncretic or will the existing traditions remain discrete? - Will some of the more religious or metaphysical elements of Buddhism (e.g., Brahma requesting that the Buddha teach) wind up with less emphasis in the West? To clarify (because there has been some discussion of related points in the past), I am not trying to assert a position on how any tradition ought to develop or to imply that Western / Enlightenment sensibilities and/or a denuded form of practice should develop here; rather, I am genuinely curious about how people think the traditions will, in fact develop (or not) as they mature in the West. I certainly don't want to raise an inappropriate line of discussion, so if, on balance, there's a feeling that this question would be better raised in a different context, just let me know and I'll edit it out.
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Nov 30, 2014 11:15
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I have things I suspect will happen, but by way of an answer I'd like to quote His Holiness the Drikung Kyabgon, who gave the following teaching and instruction over the winter early this year:quote:Recommendations to the Lineage,
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Nov 30, 2014 12:36
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This was actually a large concern of Chogyam Trungpa. One of the early decisions he made about his Sangha was to abandon the traditional robes in favor of Hugo Boss suits and a military uniform for his students. I'll see if I can dig up his quote on why he preferred the suit, it's good.
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Nov 30, 2014 13:49
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:
These are all great questions, and I think they will vary by tradition in a large part by how much of a cultural tie the tradition has to its eastern roots. I would imagine that having a strong anchor of traditional practice in whatever home country the tradition comes from is a steadying force in keeping things from changing too drastically. I can only take my own tradition as an example (Thai Forest tradition), which is obviously based in Thailand and has a series of home monasteries there. A good number of the more prominent western monks either ordained there, or spent long periods of time studying and living in Thailand, so those sensibilities are very much present in the western monasteries. They will sometimes give talks in both Thai and English when a large number of Thai practitioners are present at our center. A lot of chanting is still done in Pali, and so on. None of the metaphysical elements have really been cast aside in my experience, aside from those that are based purely in local culture (such as monks being asked to make amulets, provide lucky lottery numbers, etc). We still make the traditional request for a monk's teaching, which originates from Brahma's request to the Buddha. There is still a dedication of merit after meditation sessions, etc. So it seems that, at least where I practice, there has been very little new-ageification of the practice, as well as little to no effort to turn it into whatever kind of "secular buddhism" you see talked about so often. I prefer it that way. I would imagine that Tibetan practice is the same in the US as well but I don't know that for sure. People Stew fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 21:41
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:I've subscribed to a number of Buddhist podcasts, and lately feel as though I'm on a sort of constant retreat, at least in terms of taking in daily dharma talks (there are way more than I could actually give meaningful attention). I do this as well. I feel like dhamma talks are a great way of keeping your practice centered and active. I listen to them at work or during my commute. If anyone has any good podcasts or specific talks to share, that would be a good contribution to the thread. I particularly like Ajahn Jayasaro. He has a lot of talks on Youtube. He came to our center in Portland last year and it was a very inspiring evening. This talk is a good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAPtjzbYzI edit: I don't know why that video is starting in the middle when i click on it, but the whole talk is good. People Stew fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 22:44
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Tibetan practice is in an in between period. A lot of Tibetan practice is very dependent on time consuming long retreats, completing a three year retreat is one of the foundations of being a higher "ranking" lama. That said, it is adapting to the West as well as it can, and there is a concerted effort these days. One of the struggles is that lineage and transmission is huge in Tibetan Buddhism. The unbroken chain of lineage is where a practice gets its legitimacy, it's the source of the blessings and the "power" of it. I know when I do a practice, I am doing the same ritual as the dude who developed it, with obvious small changes but generally without much change. The concept of an unbroken lineage is critical in initiatic traditions generally, and Tibetan Buddhism is no different. Basically, you know a practice is "legit" if it has an unbroken lineage chain, because presumably it worked for the guy who developed it and it's been passed down uncorrupted since then. So the issue is balancing that versus the need to adapt to new situations and conditions. Here is the comment I made on Holiness' teachings that I quoted above: quote:I find this to be one of the most important teachings of our time. It is really important that the teachings be transmitted according to the culture they are intended for, that the methods be those of the local culture. In the West many people are hesitant to approach the strange appearances of other cultures because of their karma. Many of us enjoy the cultural diversity, but still our circumstances make it impossible to practice in the traditional way. It is for example in the West almost impossible for most people to take a three month retreat, let alone a three year retreat. Taking a three year retreat in the US in many jobs would make one's knowledge and skills obsolete and they would not be employable. I do not believe that it is the method of the Buddha to exclude Westerners by these institutions, and I don't believe that 3 months or 3 years are the only ways. I lack the wisdom to know what is a better way right now, but I hope our enlightened teachers like Holiness can show us. This open mindedness to adapt to our Western reality is really good, and truly exemplifies enlightened wisdom. I do not believe it is the karma of Westerners to simply practice until they can be born in a culture that permits things like long retreats, instead I believe that there must be methods of attainment such as internal renunciation and practice that are more functional for us. I think for example the lay institutions will be more relevant in the West, or a relaxed Vinaya that accommodates people being employed, and so on.
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Nov 30, 2014 23:37
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Khenchen Rinpoche just posted this timely excerpt on his Facebook wall:quote:What is to be practiced concerning the mind or wisdom awareness?
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Dec 1, 2014 09:56
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Prickly Pete posted:If anyone has any good podcasts or specific talks to share, that would be a good contribution to the thread. The podcasts I currently have on my phone feed (I listen via bluetooth when commuting) are: Dharmaseed San Francisco Zen Center Insight Meditation Society (Joseph Goldstein, et al.) The podcasts are constantly updating with new material from talks and retreats, and the new material downloads automatically on iphone; I assume it's pretty much the same on android, but I'm not using an android phone so I can't be sure. Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 16:51
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Here are Dzongsar's Podcasts. I listen back to them every once in a while. His talk on Love and Relationships is one of my favorite: http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/Podcasts.html Parting from the 4 Attachments and It Depends are also very good. They all are, really.
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Dec 1, 2014 16:58
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Prickly Pete posted:If anyone has any good podcasts or specific talks to share, that would be a good contribution to the thread. I like listening to: Abhayagiri, talks at a monastery in the Thai Forest Tradition. Links to the RSS feed and iTunes at the very bottom behind the RSS button. Talks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at the Metta Forest Monastery. Talks by Kusala Bhikshu, a monk ordained in the Zen Tradition of Vietnam
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Dec 1, 2014 18:06
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Grim Up North posted:I like listening to: Thanks everyone. I'll check some of these of. Also, if you like Abhayagiri, you should check out the talks from Amaravati if you haven't already. Ajahn Amaro gives some funny and insightful talks.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:24
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This thread has come to my negative attention, repeatedly, over the course of several months. It isn't even always the same one or two assholes. Grow a thicker skin, or find somewhere else to talk.
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Dec 2, 2014 00:53
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Slo-Tek posted:This thread has come to my negative attention, repeatedly, over the course of several months. It isn't even always the same one or two assholes. hello! Does Buddhism say that I shouldn't take acid?
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Dec 2, 2014 02:51
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Prickly Pete posted:I don't know if it has been posted yet, but for those of you who practice metta, Thich Nhat Hanh is in poor health and apparently in a coma. I don't practice Zen but I have always liked his teachings. That's too bad, but it's good to know about him, and I want to read more of his writing. The way you feel about him is sort of how I feel about Osho.
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Dec 2, 2014 03:55
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Friendly Tumour posted:hello! "SN 2.14 posted:A layman who has chosen to practice this Dhamma should not indulge in the drinking of intoxicants. He should not drink them nor encourage others to do so; realizing that it leads to madness. Through intoxication foolish people perform evil deeds and cause other heedless people to do likewise. He should avoid intoxication, this occasion for demerit, which stupefies the mind, and is the pleasure of foolish people. It seems to me that it is the effect it has on the mind that determines whether you should avoid it or not. What do you think? Does it make your mind peaceful or restless? Does it make you more selfish or less selfish? I would say anything that makes you a worse person should be avoided, personally I wouldn't do acid because I feel it could easily lead to wrong views; it doesn't cause you to see reality as it truly is, because the only way to do that is (according to the suttas) through samma samhadi (sometimes translated as 'right concentration', the last factor of the noble eightfold path). It seem to me that if your goal isn't liberation then at least don't make a bad future for yourself by making bad karma. Edit: It also seems to me that there is a precept against alcohol not because alcohol is intrinsically bad, but because it is something that makes you more prone to making bad karma. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 13:50
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Rhymenoceros posted:It seems to me that it is the effect it has on the mind that determines whether you should avoid it or not. What do you think? Does it make your mind peaceful or restless? Does it make you more selfish or less selfish? My mind is ever moving, so dunno about peace or rest but the paradox lies in the fact that it can do either. Make me less or more selfish, peaceful or restless depending on many things. I've experienced some of the strongest feelings of kinship under it, as well as total withdrawal from the world and all concern. Enlightenment too, as well as realization of how empty that artificial enlightenment is. What do you mean by seeing reality? I know and see the world remain the same, my interpretation is all that changes. So what is the best one, what interpretation should I strive for?
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Dec 2, 2014 14:17
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Hello ! When you change, the world changes. When the world changes, you change. You don't have to strive for anything. Just practice, just sitting.
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Dec 2, 2014 15:45
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Friendly Tumour posted:My mind is ever moving, so dunno about peace or rest but the paradox lies in the fact that it can do either. Make me less or more selfish, peaceful or restless depending on many things. I've experienced some of the strongest feelings of kinship under it, as well as total withdrawal from the world and all concern. Enlightenment too, as well as realization of how empty that artificial enlightenment is. Uttiya Sutta posted:"And, Master Gotama, when having directly known it, you teach the Dhamma to your disciples for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, will all the cosmos be led [to release], or a half of it, or a third?" If e.g. you took acid, thought you experienced enlightenment and that it wasn't so great, and that lead you away from the Dhamma, that would be very unskillful, and I would absolutely recommend not ever taking acid again. Edit: Like, if you fall away from practice because you think you know what enlightenment is after taking acid, I would say that's an example of wrong view leading to not good things. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 15:58
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Truthfully that is the main reason I think it may not be super good, is I've known several people who, having obtained such and such an experience through drugs, believe that that's it and so they spend all their meditation trying to accomplish the psychedelic experience rather than without expectation experiencing rigpa or Mahamudra or whatnot. It kind of poisons the well is all. But yeah it's not going to ruin your chances at enlightenment or something. I think people get very caught up in precepts like a dogma, but that's not helpful either. Then rather then this set of assumptions and attachments we just have another. That does not mean the precepts are nonsense or something, they are definitely important and good to hold. However, if you can't hold one or another, just do what you can. If you can hold just one, then hold just one. If you can hold five, then hold five. When I first started I was of the "eh drinking but not to inebriation is no big deal" mind. Eventually I was able to reflect on it as a cause of suffering. Same as smoking, same as eating meat, etc. You don't have to take them all at once, if you practice the dharma naturally over time your mind will align with it and you'll soon find it harder and more distasteful to drink than not, and so on. So basically do whatever but reflect on whether it's a cause of suffering in the end. Tl;dr: they're good ideas, not commandments. You don't have to use every good idea you hear, but your life will probably be easier if you do. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 17:27
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I am looking at getting into practice in my area. I previously had the good fortune to study Urasenke tea ceremony for a while with a student of that school, and I enjoyed the mindfulness and meditative aspects of it and the literature around the act, which draws heavily on zen. It looks like the most "legit" (least controversial? Most public about their lineage?) group around here is affiliated with Boundless Way Zen, and they meet in a Unitarian Church. The other organized options are Shambala and NKT, which I've already read have some serious drawbacks. Does anyone else here have much background with Boundless Way and the Soto/Linji traditions? As a beginner, I guess I would like a little more insight into this before I enter a sangha. My partner is a cultural Buddhist who doesn't practice, and his family belong to a Pure Land sect and that is not really a branch I have any great interest to explore. It sounds too similar to the "believe and you will be saved" type of Protestantism I grew up with in the bible belt. I have an aversion to that way of thinking.
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Dec 2, 2014 17:28
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In a therapeutic context, psychedelics would be considered medicine and thus acceptable to take. Buddhism is pretty clear cut that poisons can be used skillfully as medicine in the right context.RedTonic posted:I am looking at getting into practice in my area. I previously had the good fortune to study Urasenke tea ceremony for a while with a student of that school, and I enjoyed the mindfulness and meditative aspects of it and the literature around the act, which draws heavily on zen. I've been around Soto Zen for a pretty long time and it tends to be pretty flexible. When people get more seriously into it, there's a big emphasis on being a gentle, understanding, non-judgemental, non-dogmatic person. The kesa wearers I've met from Soto Zen have been very much of that nature. Zen tends to be taught through suggestions rather than actually telling or ordering you to do anything. Linji/Rinzai (Linji is the Chinese name, Rinzai is the Japanese version of Linji) has a reputation for being more march with more people getting hit with sticks. Apparently they've softened this a little bit (and there's a big emphasis in Rinzai to act in a grandmotherly way, which kind of restrains the machoness). If you turn up at a Soto group, you'll be practicing Shikantaza, i.e. just sitting and watching the breath. They may encourage you to count breaths, but that is more common in Rinzai. In Rinzai, koan practice will be a more explicit part of your practice and they tend to encourage counting breaths more. Frankly, Rinzai and Soto are pretty drat interchangeable on any important matter. Rinzai is traditionally referred to as the "sudden awakening" school and Soto the "gradual awakening" school. If you talk to pretty much anyone seriously into either school they'll tell you that both paths are actually the same and there is no sudden without gradual and no gradual without sudden. There's a bit of rivalry between the two, but these days it is mostly good natured as there exists a lot of mutual respect between the two schools. It's not at all uncommon for people to have spent time around both, though it is usually suggested to focus primarily on one school. One note on Zen teachers in specific (though it is true of all Buddhist teachers): know your boundaries and always remember that all teachers are fallible humans. Some can indeed be helpful, but don't put them on a pedestal beyond reproach. Scrutinize them and their teachings and teaching style. If you don't like how they live or teach or act, there're a hell of a lot of other people out there who can teach Zen practice and ritual. If you want to check out a Zen practice group, give them a call or email them in advance and they'll put you in touch with someone who will talk/walk you through what to do and expect when you turn up (every group will do this, it's formally a part of zen  ). You'll be expected to bow to the people around you at a couple points (to silently show mutual respect) and there may be a bit of chanting. I mention those because people tend to find those a bit weird if they've never been around either before. If there's anything you aren't comfortable with, just don't do it. It took me a few visits before I was comfortable with bowing to strangers (and also people stopped being strangers). As to chanting, Zen chanting is pretty fun, actually. It sounds incredible when everyone is in sync.Oh yeah, lastly: asking questions is absolutely critical to Zen practice. If you're at a Zen sitting group and have any questions at all, ask ask ask. I'd also suggest hanging around a little afterwards and offer to help put things away. E: Boundless Way Zen I can't speak to personally, thankfully Dark Wind has that covered. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 17:38
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RedTonic posted:I am looking at getting into practice in my area. I previously had the good fortune to study Urasenke tea ceremony for a while with a student of that school, and I enjoyed the mindfulness and meditative aspects of it and the literature around the act, which draws heavily on zen. I'm guessing you are somewhere in the Massachusetts area? I practiced with Boundless Way for a couple of months in Boston around this time last year. They're a friendly and kind bunch, very small group. It's lead by James Ishmael Ford, who's written a lot of books and has contributed tons of content to all sorts of publications like Sweeping Zen. They're very legitimate, and you wouldn't go wrong with them. I believe their lineage mainly stems from Sanbo-Kyodan Zen, which is a combined Rinzai/Soto lineage of sorts, so you'll have access to both Koan and Shikantaza practice, and direct access through dokusan to a teacher. Definitely check them out, they have a bigger center out in Worcester, MA too which is where they hold larger retreats and sorts. If you're planning on staying within the MA area for any length of time, I'm sure it would be a great place to really build deep connections with a sangha. If you're in Boston, I would seriously recommend you also at least give the Shambhala center there a look. They have endured controversy in the past, but the current head is Sakyong Mipham, who's a very level-headed and likeable guy, and the centers are full of some really warm and loving people who REALLY know their dharma. If anything, they have a really strong infrastructure to support both new and more experienced meditators, which is something I've always appreciated. If the stigmas of the past is too much of a deterrent, that's totally understandable, but the center there is where I got my start and I can't speak highly enough about it, it honestly changed my life for the better. I hope this helps! Also, I should mention that some of the teachers in Boundless Way Zen actually mix a little bit of Shin Buddhism (a form of Pure Land Buddhism) into their chants. This may or may not be a deterrent for you, but it doesn't seem to really have a huge influence on their practice.
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Dec 2, 2014 18:03
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Thank you for the response, Dark Wind. It's always good to get local insight, I sincerely appreciate it. I actually plan to stay in southern NE for the next 5 - 6 years unless something comes out of the blue. I'm in RI, so a little away from the central hub of interesting stuff which is Boston. I think I've actually visited the Worcester center once, but it's rather out of the way for me to make a regular thing of attending. I saw the mention of dokusan on the local group's site so that is also a big plus! It's also kind of intriguing that their Soto priest is also an ordained Universalist Unitarian minister. I don't have a problem per se with nianfo as an exhortation to keeping one's mind on compassion. (Guanshiyin's tale is a pretty awesome manifestation of compassion!) If that is more or less what the inclusion amounts to, it's something I can accept. Thank you for mentioning it! That will be something on my mind when I go. My real stumbling block isn't about invocation, but the "all you have to do is believe, practicing virtue is unimportant" type of... Abdication of responsibility? I'm not great at articulating my thoughts on this. For some useful input: there have been many questions in this thread about the status of caffeine and whether it amounts to a precept-breaking intoxicant. Tea's original usage was as medicine and for a while was all but restricted to the highest rungs of Chinese society. One of the events which helped "democratize" tea drinking/availability was royals donating tea to temples, where it started to be drunk as an aid in meditation (so as to not fall asleep). Missionaries helped spread tea even further. With this in mind, I would hazard that it's considered an expedient means to help you just sit. After Buddhist missionaries brought tea over from China, Japan adopted tea ceremony as part of a kind of veneration of Chinese cultural arts. Sen no Rikyu essentially championed the transition from what had been a very elaborate, banquet-style ceremony imported from China into a more rustic, spontaneous art which also incorporated a fair amount of zen thought into the rite's aesthetic. (This art was still no less limited to the upper rungs of Japanese society, though it did spread to the merchant class as they gained wealth and status; Rikyu was a merchant's son.) The big 3 schools are descended from his teaching. Urasenke is one of these. (Actually it's my understanding that there is a practicing Urasenke group in Boston, but the commute is too much for me.) Rikyu was a pretty interesting dude who not only studied tea but had also studied Rinzai zen. Unfortunately I can't comment much on the development of tea use in Korea and India, it's just not something I've had a chance to learn.
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Dec 2, 2014 18:55
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RedTonic posted:Tea's original usage was as medicine and for a while was all but restricted to the highest rungs of Chinese society. One of the events which helped "democratize" tea drinking/availability was royals donating tea to temples, where it started to be drunk as an aid in meditation (so as to not fall asleep). Missionaries helped spread tea even further. With this in mind, I would hazard that it's considered an expedient means to help you just sit. That is indeed the way tea is formally viewed. quote:After Buddhist missionaries brought tea over from China, Japan adopted tea ceremony as part of a kind of veneration of Chinese cultural arts. Sen no Rikyu essentially championed the transition from what had been a very elaborate, banquet-style ceremony imported from China into a more rustic, spontaneous art which also incorporated a fair amount of zen thought into the rite's aesthetic. (This art was still no less limited to the upper rungs of Japanese society, though it did spread to the merchant class as they gained wealth and status; Rikyu was a merchant's son.) The big 3 schools are descended from his teaching. Urasenke is one of these. (Actually it's my understanding that there is a practicing Urasenke group in Boston, but the commute is too much for me.) Rikyu was a pretty interesting dude who not only studied tea but had also studied Rinzai zen. Unfortunately I can't comment much on the development of tea use in Korea and India, it's just not something I've had a chance to learn. That was interesting to learn. You'll find Zen very familiar. A lot of people involved with Zen are into tea ceremony, as well. Ritual isn't quite as important at first in Zen, though it becomes a much more prominent part as you continue.
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Dec 2, 2014 19:03
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The idea of intoxicants is open to interpretation to some degree. It you want to get really specific, the actual precept (in Pali) refers to abstaining from fermented beverages, so it is pretty clearly taking aim at alcohol. At this point, the precept is usually understood as referring to drugs that cause your consciousness to be altered to a significant degree. The important part, as Rhymenoceros mentioned, is whether or not the substance leads to heedlessness. Caffeine is generally considered to be ok as far as I know. Monks who practice according to the Vinaya will not consume solid food after noon, but coffee and tea are acceptable. One of the things to keep in mind about the precepts is their dual purpose. They are not simply rules to adhere to for your own sake. They are also to be viewed as a gift to other living beings. By not killing, stealing, or becoming heedless from substance abuse, you are keeping yourself from inflicting suffering on others. It is hard to imagine caffeine being responsible for causing suffering to others, except in cases of severe withdrawal or something like that.
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Dec 2, 2014 19:56
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Somehow I didn't see The-Mole's reply to my first post. Thank you for your input, too, it's really clarifying! Thank you all for entertaining my questions. (I like to ask the poo poo out of some questions, so it's a positive for me that zen practice welcomes this.)Prickly Pete posted:The idea of intoxicants is open to interpretation to some degree. It you want to get really specific, the actual precept (in Pali) refers to abstaining from fermented beverages, so it is pretty clearly taking aim at alcohol. At this point, the precept is usually understood as referring to drugs that cause your consciousness to be altered to a significant degree. The important part, as Rhymenoceros mentioned, is whether or not the substance leads to heedlessness. I wonder if there were other forms of drugs used in the place and period in which the precepts were written? The history of mind altering substances isn't my strong suit. It would be interesting additional context for the rule, though. I just meant to add a little historic context to the use of caffeine, at any rate.  I think it is possible that some people's use of caffeine violates the precept because it potentially does cause harm. Eight or more cups a day is associated with a rise in suicide risk for adults according to an 2000 article in the European Journal of Epidemiology. If you're drinking that much coffee in a day, you're past the point of diminishing returns in terms of benefits. (Interestingly, moderate use seems to correspond with a lower risk of suicide in middle-aged women in a more recent Harvard study.) But that falls into not using a tool in moderation; immoderate consumption hurts the consumer and those around him, and is the fault of the person rather than the tool. Prickly Pete posted:Monks who practice according to the Vinaya will not consume solid food after noon, but coffee and tea are acceptable. This part is pretty curious to me, though. Why the restriction after noon? Is this a fasting period or is there a different rationalization provided? Is this common across all major traditions? I'm remotely familiar with temple cuisine, as it were, but the setting around it is unfamiliar. On a totally different topic, or maybe going to back to bowing: for those of you whose practice includes prostration, how/is that modified for practitioners with injury or disability that make it impractical?
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Dec 2, 2014 20:30
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